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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by BuschDevil View Post
    Sounds like the old Big Four Tournament that Duke, UNC, NC State, & Wake used have, playing games against each other in early season. They ended it, if I recall, because they decided beating on each other an extra time was not in their best interest. Others may remember more details of the Big Four's demise, but in it's day, it was a big deal here on Tobacco Road.
    No question, BuschDevil. The Big Four was a VERY big deal in those days on Tobacco Road. Greensboro embraced it. With an expanded conference, reviving or creating a new December event with the "new" ACC is a great idea. In Greensboro, you could rotate two of the old Big Four teams each year along with two others each year. Maybe create a formula based on the prior year's regular season and/or ACC Tourney performance as the selection criteria. "People will come, people will most definitely come."

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Durham, NC
    If we go to 16 teams in the ACC, we could cut one conference game and play all teams once. Only once.
    There should be no more complaining about an unbalanced schedule. Everyone would play everyone every year.
    Schools could then have room in their schedule for another big-time non-conference foe.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by 94duke View Post
    If we go to 16 teams in the ACC, we could cut one conference game and play all teams once. Only once.
    There should be no more complaining about an unbalanced schedule. Everyone would play everyone every year.
    Schools could then have room in their schedule for another big-time non-conference foe.
    Yes, we could. But we won't.

    Try telling ESPN that they will only get one Duke/UNC game or one Pitt/Syr game when they are used to more.

    As has been explained ad nauseum, this entire expansion thing is about TV contracts and money. Schedule balance, geography, and rivalries all play second fiddle.

    Multiple big-name matchups per year > balanced schedule.

  4. #44
    Something like this would allow each team in 14 team conference to play everyone at least once plus accomodate primary rivalries.

    Clemson and Wake schedule would be the most variable (see bottom).

    Six teams people have 3 rivals and five teams have two rivals plus one of Clemson/Wake:

    Syr: BC, Pitt- UVA
    Pitt: BC-Syr-FSU
    BC: Syr-Pitt-MD
    UVA: VA T- MD- Syr
    MD: UVA-VA T- BC
    FSU: Miami-GA T-Pitt

    UNC: Duke-NC-St - (Clemson/WF)
    Duke-UNC-NC St- (WF/Clemson)
    NC St: UNC-Duke-(Clemson-WF)

    VA T: UVA-MD- (WF/Clemson)
    GA T: FSU-Miami-(Clemson-WF)

    Clemson: (UNC/Duke) - (NC St- VA T) - (GA T-Wake)
    Wake: (Duke/UNC) - (VA Tech-NC St) - (GA T- Clemson)

    So Clemson and Wake alternate among each other plus the 5 who have two primary rivals.

    If NC State complains about always having to play both UNC and Duke, they could be made variable like Clemson and NC St:

    UNC plays Duke and two of (NC St-Wake-Clemson) so every third year one of these 3 plays neither UNC/Duke twice
    Duke plays UNC and two of (Wake-Clemson-NC St) so every third year one of these 3 plays neither UNC/Duke twice

    VA T: UVA - MD - (Wake/Clemson/NC St) so every third year one of these 3 plays neither VA T/GA T twice
    GA T: FSU - Miami - (NC St-Clemson/Wake) so every third year one of these 3 plays neither VA T/GA T twice

    NC St plays 3 of (UNC-Duke-Wake-Clemson-VA T-GA T) and every 3 years neither of UNC/Duke twice, same for (VA T/GA T) and same for Clemson/Wake
    Clemson plays 3 of (Duke-UNC-Wake-NC St-VA T-GA T) and every 3 years neither of Duke/UNC twice, same for (VA T/GA T) and same for NC St/Wake
    Wake plays 3 of (Duke-UNC-NC St-Clemson-VA T-GAT) and every 3 years neithe rof UNC/Duke twice, same for (VA T/GA T) and same for NC St/Clemson.

    One flaw in this is that the 8 teams never play UNC or Duke home and Home: Syracuse - Pitt - MD - FSU - UVA - BC - VA T - GA T, another way of saying they always play each other twice and alternate 2 of (NC St- Wake-Clemson) or always NC St twice and alternate (Wake/Clemson).

    To accomodate playing any of these other 7 twice gets a lot more complicated and detracts from games between in state NC teams.
    Last edited by ACCBBallFan; 09-22-2011 at 12:45 PM.

  5. #45
    I inadvertently left off Miami:

    Miami: FSU -GA T - (Wake-Clemson-NC St)
    VA T - UVA - MD - (Wake-Clemson-NC St)
    GA T - FSU-Miami - (wake-Clemson-NC St)

    Perhaps to limit all the permutations: NC St, Wake and Clemson could alternate these 3 year combinations:
    (UNC-Duke-neither/both) and (Miami-VA T- GAT) and (one, one, both/neither of NC St-Wake-Clemson)

    I am confident something will get screwed up along the way, but luckily league will not stay at 14 very long.

    Until we know whether Pitt and Syracuse will be held to 27 month max, or have an earlier buyout and whether others will be added/lost, no sense worrying about it any further.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX

    Zipper Divisions

    Probably ought to change the thread title since we'll be 14 next year.

    But anyway, posted this on the realignment thread, but more appropriate here. The concept is a zipper division wherein you split up the "rivals". It doesn't work as seamlessly as the Pac 14 with OU and OSU would have, so maybe we need to switch some of the rivals, but this works for an easy nine game schedule in football. Whaddayathink?

    Right zipper:
    1. Syracuse
    2. Maryland
    3. Virginia
    4. Duke
    5. Wake
    6. Georgia Tech
    7. Miami

    Left zipper:
    1. Pitt
    2. BC
    3. Virginia Tech
    4. UNC
    5. NC State
    6. Clemson
    7. Florida St.

    Football: Each team plays 6 in its division plus its zipper rival (pair the numbers in each group) and 2 other teams each year. Voila!

    For basketball, it doesn't work without a 20 game schedule which I imagine is off the table. Although how is it different from a 19 game schedule which is what would be required to balance the schedules as much as possible and have everyone play each other? So yeah. I want this for b-ball too!

    Edited to swap NC State and Wake. NC State has to play UNC each year.

  7. #47
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Probably ought to change the thread title since we'll be 14 next year.
    We still don't know when we will be 14. Seeing as the original buyout was 27 months, there is still a fighting change that we will not see them in the conference next year (in what would be closer to 10 months).
    1200. DDMF.

  8. #48
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    We still don't know when we will be 14. Seeing as the original buyout was 27 months, there is still a fighting change that we will not see them in the conference next year (in what would be closer to 10 months).
    That will all get negotiated out. There is nothing worse than a lame duck team. Colorado was supposed to be in the Big XII one more year this year, but it just didn't make sense for anyone involved. I could see a one year delay, but Pitt and 'Cuse will be here in 2013 unless there is another conferapocarealignmageddon between now and then.

    If things stay the same, though, it will be in the best interests of the Big East to move on as well and reshape itself into something major college football will let past the velvet rope.

    We'll see.

  9. #49
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    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    We still don't know when we will be 14. Seeing as the original buyout was 27 months, there is still a fighting chance that we will not see them in the conference next year (in what would be closer to 10 months).
    sources-big-east-members-want-pitt-syracuse-gone-soon

  10. #50
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    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    That will all get negotiated out. There is nothing worse than a lame duck team. Colorado was supposed to be in the Big XII one more year this year, but it just didn't make sense for anyone involved. I could see a one year delay, but Pitt and 'Cuse will be here in 2013 unless there is another conferapocarealignmageddon between now and then.

    If things stay the same, though, it will be in the best interests of the Big East to move on as well and reshape itself into something major college football will let past the velvet rope.

    We'll see.
    You're right, its highly likely.. I think my point is that with the remaining big east members wanting to milk this for all the money its worth might push negotiations such that a deal doesn't get done quick enough for them to join next year.
    1200. DDMF.

  11. #51
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    Feb 2007
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    You're right, its highly likely.. I think my point is that with the remaining big east members wanting to milk this for all the money its worth might push negotiations such that a deal doesn't get done quick enough for them to join next year.
    To Fork Fondler's point and link, CU was going to stick around an extra year because they didn't want to pay the exit fee. The Big XII paid them less so they would leave sooner. I think that will happen here.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    To Fork Fondler's point and link, CU was going to stick around an extra year because they didn't want to pay the exit fee. The Big XII paid them less so they would leave sooner. I think that will happen here.
    The difference is that CU is sort of a fringe member of either conference (not the top dog for sure) whereas syracuse and pitt were in the big east. I don't think the smaller schools in the big east will be willing to let them off the hook as easily. I'm not saying it won't happen, just that some of the factors that may have come into play with the CU situation are much different than the current one.
    1200. DDMF.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York, NY

    14-Team Mechanics

    Oh, what the hell. Figured I'd give it a stab in terms of a scheduling idea.

    The core of my concept allows each team to have two permanent partners. I'm not savvy enough to know exactly who each team's main foe is, but I figure at least these four pairings would hold true:

    Duke - UNC
    UVA - Va Tech
    Miami - FSU
    Syr - Pitt

    (Others please help me out here if I'm missing any big-name pairings.)

    So what you do is you draw a line between each school. Then you continue the line to that schools other pairing. So UNC - Duke - (say) Maryland. I know, "they aren't our rival." Well for the purposes of this discussion, they are. So, Duke's permanent two are UNC and MD. MD goes to BC (so they are paired with Duke and BC. BC goes to Syr (MD + Syr). Etc... The line must end in a complete circle. There can't be two separate circles.

    Once you're done with your own version, you split the 14 teams into two halves with each team being on the opposing side of its two permanent partners. I have:

    ACC Yin
    Duke
    NC State
    Clemson
    Miami
    VA Tech
    BC
    Pitt

    ACC Yang
    UNC
    Wake
    FSU
    GA Tech
    UVA
    Syr
    MD

    So those are the football divisions above:
    You play everyone in your division (Yin or Yang). That's six games. Plus your two permanent partners makes eight games.

    For basketball, just make it one whole division:
    You play everyone once for 13 games. Plus your two permanent partners again. Plus three more games that rotate every year. 13+2+3=18 conference games.
    Disclaimer: It's obviously not balanced. At all. And it doesn't even make for a clean rotation of teams every few years. But it keeps main rivals twice a year.

    To me, this saves rivalries in both football and basketball (which is probably one of the main marketing points for a conference TV-wise). It allows for three conference games worth of flexibility in basketball for whatever the ACC deems optimal in terms of scheduling going forward. They can rotate annually in a true rotation (different teams each year). They can schedule to cater to TV matchups. They can even dream up something more exotic. And it allows for only 8 and 18 total conference games in football and basketball, respectively, which gives coaches the ability to customize their schedule appropriately.

    That's just my attempt. Feel free tweak it or dump it by the wayside.

    If we go to 16, I assume things get simpler, but I don't even want to start thinking about that until those wheels start turning again.

    - Chillin

  14. #54
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    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    The difference is that CU is sort of a fringe member of either conference (not the top dog for sure) whereas syracuse and pitt were in the big east. I don't think the smaller schools in the big east will be willing to let them off the hook as easily. I'm not saying it won't happen, just that some of the factors that may have come into play with the CU situation are much different than the current one.
    Read that link. The schools want Pitt and Syr gone the most are the BB schools. They are quite happy to let them go because Big East basketball will be fine without them. What a crazy league.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    Oh, what the hell. Figured I'd give it a stab in terms of a scheduling idea.

    The core of my concept allows each team to have two permanent partners. I'm not savvy enough to know exactly who each team's main foe is, but I figure at least these four pairings would hold true:

    Duke - UNC
    UVA - Va Tech
    Miami - FSU
    Syr - Pitt

    (Others please help me out here if I'm missing any big-name pairings.)

    So what you do is you draw a line between each school. Then you continue the line to that schools other pairing. So UNC - Duke - (say) Maryland. I know, "they aren't our rival." Well for the purposes of this discussion, they are. So, Duke's permanent two are UNC and MD. MD goes to BC (so they are paired with Duke and BC. BC goes to Syr (MD + Syr). Etc... The line must end in a complete circle. There can't be two separate circles.

    Once you're done with your own version, you split the 14 teams into two halves with each team being on the opposing side of its two permanent partners. I have:

    ACC Yin
    Duke
    NC State
    Clemson
    Miami
    VA Tech
    BC
    Pitt

    ACC Yang
    UNC
    Wake
    FSU
    GA Tech
    UVA
    Syr
    MD

    So those are the football divisions above:
    You play everyone in your division (Yin or Yang). That's six games. Plus your two permanent partners makes eight games.

    For basketball, just make it one whole division:
    You play everyone once for 13 games. Plus your two permanent partners again. Plus three more games that rotate every year. 13+2+3=18 conference games.
    Disclaimer: It's obviously not balanced. At all. And it doesn't even make for a clean rotation of teams every few years. But it keeps main rivals twice a year.

    To me, this saves rivalries in both football and basketball (which is probably one of the main marketing points for a conference TV-wise). It allows for three conference games worth of flexibility in basketball for whatever the ACC deems optimal in terms of scheduling going forward. They can rotate annually in a true rotation (different teams each year). They can schedule to cater to TV matchups. They can even dream up something more exotic. And it allows for only 8 and 18 total conference games in football and basketball, respectively, which gives coaches the ability to customize their schedule appropriately.

    That's just my attempt. Feel free tweak it or dump it by the wayside.

    If we go to 16, I assume things get simpler, but I don't even want to start thinking about that until those wheels start turning again.

    - Chillin
    That's pretty sweet with the Yin and Yang, but I think mine with the Swof and Ford is funnier. No offense.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  16. #56
    Here's the TV type of 14 team schedule - Play the other 13 once plus these 3 Home and Home:

    The 4 top teams play each of the other 3 twice

    UNC: Syr - Duke - Pitt
    Syr: UNC-Duke-Pitt
    Duke: UNC-Syr- Pitt
    Pitt: UNC-Syr-Duke

    Then you eliminate the ones nobody but the schools involved want to watch by having the 4 bottom teams play each of the other 3 twice:

    MD: GA T- Wake-BC
    GA T: MD- Wake - BC
    Wake - MD - GA T- BC
    BC: MD-GA T- Wake

    FSU always plays Miami twice and alternates (UVA/NC St one year) and (VA T/Clemson the second year)
    Miami always plays FSU twice and alternates (VA T/Clemson one year) and( UVA/NC St the second year)

    UVA always plays VA Tech twice and alternates (FSU/Clemson one year) and (Miami/NC St the second year)
    VA Tech always plays UVA twice and alternates (Miami/NC St one year) and (FSU/Clemson the seocnd year)

    Clemson always plays NC St twice and alternates (Maimi/UVA one year) and (FSU/VA Tech the second year)
    NC St always plays Clemson twice and alternates (FSU/VA Tech one year) and (Miami/UVA the second year)

    The next year you can either keep the same top 4 and bottom 4 and follow the second year alternates in middle 6 or re-seed the top 4 and bottom 4 and pair up the middle six each with one partner and 2 of the 4 one year and the other2 of the 4 two second year.

    Strength of ACC 14 unbalanced schedule:

    39 - Pitt (4)
    38 - Duke (3)
    37 - Syr (2)
    36 - UNC (1)

    22 - FSU (5)
    23 - Miami (6)

    22 - UVA (7)
    23 - VA Tech (8)

    22 - Clemson (9)
    23 - NC St (10)

    9 - BC (14)
    8 - Wake (13)
    7 - GA Tech (12)
    6 - MD (11)

    So 5th seed FSU and 6th seed Miami have a chance to knock out one of the top 4 if they can sweep their group for 6 wins plus beat the bottom 3 and 1 top for 10.
    11th seed Miami and 12th seed GA Tech have a chance to climb into the middle 6 if they can sweep their group for 6 plus beat win 2 of 6 from the middle group for 8.

    If somebody in the middle group gets swept the conceivably might just have 3 wins versus the bottom group and get demoted there.
    If somebody in the top group gets swept, even if they win all of the other games which is unlikely the end up with 9 wins.

    Of course things change every year with graduations, recruits, coaching changes, etc.

  17. #57
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  18. #58
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    Here's the TV type of 14 team schedule - Play the other 13 once plus these 3 Home and Home:

    The 4 top teams play each of the other 3 twice

    UNC: Syr - Duke - Pitt
    Syr: UNC-Duke-Pitt
    Duke: UNC-Syr- Pitt
    Pitt: UNC-Syr-Duke

    Then you eliminate the ones nobody but the schools involved want to watch by having the 4 bottom teams play each of the other 3 twice:

    MD: GA T- Wake-BC
    GA T: MD- Wake - BC
    Wake - MD - GA T- BC
    BC: MD-GA T- Wake

    FSU always plays Miami twice and alternates (UVA/NC St one year) and (VA T/Clemson the second year)
    Miami always plays FSU twice and alternates (VA T/Clemson one year) and( UVA/NC St the second year)

    UVA always plays VA Tech twice and alternates (FSU/Clemson one year) and (Miami/NC St the second year)
    VA Tech always plays UVA twice and alternates (Miami/NC St one year) and (FSU/Clemson the seocnd year)

    Clemson always plays NC St twice and alternates (Maimi/UVA one year) and (FSU/VA Tech the second year)
    NC St always plays Clemson twice and alternates (FSU/VA Tech one year) and (Miami/UVA the second year)

    The next year you can either keep the same top 4 and bottom 4 and follow the second year alternates in middle 6 or re-seed the top 4 and bottom 4 and pair up the middle six each with one partner and 2 of the 4 one year and the other2 of the 4 two second year.

    Strength of ACC 14 unbalanced schedule:

    39 - Pitt (4)
    38 - Duke (3)
    37 - Syr (2)
    36 - UNC (1)

    22 - FSU (5)
    23 - Miami (6)

    22 - UVA (7)
    23 - VA Tech (8)

    22 - Clemson (9)
    23 - NC St (10)

    9 - BC (14)
    8 - Wake (13)
    7 - GA Tech (12)
    6 - MD (11)

    So 5th seed FSU and 6th seed Miami have a chance to knock out one of the top 4 if they can sweep their group for 6 wins plus beat the bottom 3 and 1 top for 10.
    11th seed Miami and 12th seed GA Tech have a chance to climb into the middle 6 if they can sweep their group for 6 plus beat win 2 of 6 from the middle group for 8.

    If somebody in the middle group gets swept the conceivably might just have 3 wins versus the bottom group and get demoted there.
    If somebody in the top group gets swept, even if they win all of the other games which is unlikely the end up with 9 wins.

    Of course things change every year with graduations, recruits, coaching changes, etc.
    This is exactly the type of concept that would make TV-people very happy. I'm not the biggest fan personally, but then again I'm not paying multi-millions of dollars for the rights to these games. I imagine the middle- and lowest-tier teams wouldn't be overly happy as it implies inferiority from the getgo and could perceivably hurt intra-conference recruiting by being so transparent. Still, scheduling like this may very well be an option on the table when that time comes.

    What about football scheduling, though? Since that's driving this bus.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    For football, if everybody is reasonably happy with the current divisions, why not for two pretty even teams both 8-5 last year, just add Syracuse to the diviison with BC and Pitt to the diviison with the VA teams.

    I tried doing something to equalize with currently ranked teams, using last year's record for unranked teams. It ended up pretty much the same with 4 the same and 2 moving which also helps some of the geography.

    They are only traveling once a week so not sure geography as big a deal as it is on conference partners in Bball with its inhernet mid-week travel.

    Keep FSU (#11) -NC St (9-4), BC (7-6 and slipping) and Wake (3-9) in Atlantic and move GA T (#25) and Miami (23 votes) there, plus add in Syracuse (8-5)

    Keep VA Tech (#13), UNC (2 votes), UVA (4-8) and/Duke (3-9) in Coastal and move Clemson (#21) and MD (15 votes) there plus add Pitt (8-5).

    Using current year records which is a small sample size and more subject to uneven schedules ends up almost the same except Clemson moves over with FSU-Miami and GA T and Wake moves over with UNC and Duke

    3-0 VA T
    3-0 UNC
    2-1 Wake
    2-1 UVA
    1-1 MD
    1-1 Duke
    Pitt

    3-0 GA T
    3-0 Clemson
    2-1 FSU
    2-2 NC ST
    1-1 Miami
    0-3 BC
    Syr
    Last edited by ACCBBallFan; 09-23-2011 at 10:07 AM.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Why not divide the conference geographically? Wouldn't that make the most sense in terms of travel? Hopping on a chartered plane might not be a big deal for the basketball team, but there are a whole lot of non-revenue sports that are affected here too.

    ACC North:
    BC
    Syr
    Pitt
    MD
    VT
    UVA

    ACC South:
    Duke
    UNC
    NC State
    Wake
    Clemson
    GA Tech
    Miami
    FSU

    (I thought about naming the divisions "The Yankees" and "The Rebels," but decided that would get me into too much trouble 8-))

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