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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland

    16 Team Mechanics

    I'll start out by presenting some options for basketball regular season scheduling. Tourney formats and scheduling for other sports, esp football can go here too.

    Regular Season Basketball Options

    Option 1: 18 games, 4 pods, No Divisions

    a) Teams are placed into groups of four for scheduling purposes.
    b) Intrapodal, home-and-away
    c) Extrapodal, once a year
    d) seed tournament 16 vs 1, etc
    e*) In order to create a balanced schedule, use the first intrapodal games for tie-breaking purposes only

    *-optional

    Podmates will play twice a year, every one else will play each other once a year on average (0,1, and 2) every three years.

    Option 2: 18 or 22 games, 2 divisions.

    a) Two eight team divisions
    b) Intradivisional, home-and-away (14 games)
    c) Extradivisional, every other year (18 game schedule) once a year (22 game schedule)
    d) seed tournament S1 vs N8, etc
    e*) play extradivisional first (start in December, finish in early January)
    f*) use extradivisional results for tiebreaking purposes only

    *-optional

    Within division plays twice a year, other divisions either every other year (18 games) or once a year (22 games)
    If the divisions are geographic, this option will involve the least travel.

    Option 3: 18 games, 4 pods, 2 divisions

    a) Four 4-team pods
    b) Pair pods to form divisions, rotate 3 possible permutations annually
    c) Intradivisional, home-and-away (14 games)
    d) Play team in one other pod once

    Podmates will play twice a year, every one else will play each other once a year on average (0,1, and 2) every three years.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    I'll start out by presenting some options for basketball regular season scheduling. Tourney formats and scheduling for other sports, esp football can go here too.

    Regular Season Basketball Options

    Option 1: 18 games, 4 pods, No Divisions
    I don't think we'll see any concept of pods in the basketball leauge. It will likely be 18 games, play everyone once, play 3 teams twice. Certain pairings will be guaranteed 2 games a year: duke/UNC. All other pairings are decided to make the schedules as balanced as possible. Effectively the Big East schedule with a couple required home and aways.

    We also don't know, at this point, whether we'll end up at 14 or 16. If its 14, then you can get away with a 19 game schedule of 12 games home and away against your division and 7 against the other.
    usa

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC

    ACC Tourney

    This is just my opinion, but I think the ACC tourney should be limited to the top 12 finishers in the regular season. Forget the 5-day nightmare that the Big East employs. Keep the 4 day tournament the way it is. It sure will make those last few games of the regular season important!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by 94duke View Post
    This is just my opinion, but I think the ACC tourney should be limited to the top 12 finishers in the regular season. Forget the 5-day nightmare that the Big East employs. Keep the 4 day tournament the way it is. It sure will make those last few games of the regular season important!
    With the "equality of members" ideal that permeates the ACC, I'm not sure the existing 12 teams will enjoy effectively being bumped out of the ACC tournament by the newcomers. I would expect a 16 team tournament.
    usa

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    With the "equality of members" ideal that permeates the ACC, I'm not sure the existing 12 teams will enjoy effectively being bumped out of the ACC tournament by the newcomers. I would expect a 16 team tournament.
    Hey, they won't be bumped out if they win. Gives incentive for about half the pre-change conference to get their [stuff] together with respect to coaching and whatnot.

  6. #6
    Please option 2C (18 games). I like the idea of splitting the conference in half somewhat so you establish rivalries and continuity. And it cuts down on travel as well potentially, depending how they split it up. It makes it like two "normal size" conferences that merge together at the conference tournament and are forced to have 4 quality "OOC" games a year vs. the other division. So, in the age of the superconference, going to two divisions would actually almost be like the old ACC with a fair round robin home and away schedule. Yes, the four games against the other division aren't fair, but it's as close as we're going to get. The current Big East with its single line of 50 teams (obviously joking) is just overwhelming in my opinion. I'd greatly prefer to be intimately familiar with 7 other teams (if we go to 16) as the expense of the other 8, then only somewhat intrigued by all 15 other teams. 22 games in conference is too many in my opinion. It's nice to have some scheduling flexibility and go OOC for a game or two in the spring. I think those games always make us better to get used to a different style or atmosphere.

  7. #7
    If for a season or two it is a 14 team conference, hold the six games that first day in two different 3-game venues and then sync up the next couple of days for the quarterfinals and beyond.

    Teams 1 and 2 get a bye.

    Teams 3-4-5 play teams 12-13-14 in the main venue or on the Wednesday of same site.

    Teams 6-11 play in the alternate (hopefully nearby) site that first day, perhaps the home court of one of the top 5 teams, or on Thursday at the same site.

    When it becomes a 16 team event, continue the two nearby sites arrangement that first day with four games in each venue and then again assemble the quarters and beyond into a single site.

    An alternative would be to have the top half of the bracket in one site and the bottom half in the other, or Wed-Thur:

    Teams 1 vs.16, 8 vs. 9, 4 vs. 13 and 5 vs. 12 in one site or Wednesday of the same site.

    Teams 2 vs. 15, 7 vs. 10, 3 vs. 14 aand 6 vs. 11 in second site, or play Thursday in same site.

    n either event, bring them together for the semi's and finals in main site.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    If for a season or two it is a 14 team conference, hold the six games that first day in two different 3-game venues and then sync up the next couple of days for the quarterfinals and beyond.

    Teams 1 and 2 get a bye.

    Teams 3-4-5 play teams 12-13-14 in the main venue or on the Wednesday of same site.

    Teams 6-11 play in the alternate (hopefully nearby) site that first day, perhaps the home court of one of the top 5 teams, or on Thursday at the same site.

    When it becomes a 16 team event, continue the two nearby sites arrangement that first day with four games in each venue and then again assemble the quarters and beyond into a single site.

    An alternative would be to have the top half of the bracket in one site and the bottom half in the other, or Wed-Thur:

    Teams 1 vs.16, 8 vs. 9, 4 vs. 13 and 5 vs. 12 in one site or Wednesday of the same site.

    Teams 2 vs. 15, 7 vs. 10, 3 vs. 14 aand 6 vs. 11 in second site, or play Thursday in same site.

    n either event, bring them together for the semi's and finals in main site.
    My head exploded just prior to the last line.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    On the Tuesday of ACC Tournament week, have 14 play at 11 and 13 play at 12. Winners proceed to the unchanged 12-team tournament on Thursday.
    Sometimes I mistake this for a universe that cares. -- xkcd #625

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    On the Tuesday of ACC Tournament week, have 14 play at 11 and 13 play at 12. Winners proceed to the unchanged 12-team tournament on Thursday.
    Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    On the Tuesday of ACC Tournament week, have 14 play at 11 and 13 play at 12. Winners proceed to the unchanged 12-team tournament on Thursday.
    That's a 14-team verision of the 5-day BE tourney format, where some teams have to play 5 games to win. The fact the UConn actually did it last year is so stupendous that it should never be repeated ever again. That is, let's just not go there. I'd muuuch rather have a straight up 4 round 16 team tourney. You would need at least two venues to do it, but that OK. How about Cameron + DD + RBC + GB for the first two rounds, and then GB for the final two? Or, the Meadowlands AND MSG. Comcast + the MCI. Not a problem.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Please option 2C (18 games).
    That's my fave too. Basically, there are two eight team leagues that play each other in the conference tournament. If you send Miami north instead of UVa, you would have the old ACC back. (See ya terps)

    Option 3 comes in as a close 2nd. The cool thing about that on is it lets everybody rotate through Cameron and the rest of the ACC basketball mecca (aka NC) once every three years. I think they'll love to hate that.

  13. #13

    My suggestion

    Option 4?

    I'd go with a 4 pod system. I'd have each pod play home and away games against each podmate (6 "intra-pod" games), and then have home games against one pod and road games against another (8 "inter-pod" games). A six year cycle would evenly provide for every possible "inter-pod" match-up.

    Each pod would then have a pod with which there would be no "inter-pod" games in a given season. Those pods could be matched up in a pre-season "Pod Challenge" akin to the ACC-Big 10 challenge. These games wouldn't count towards the conference records but would contribute towards seeding the pods in the ACC tournament. Each pod could choose its own 1-4 for pairing purposes in the "Pod Challenge", with 2 home games and 2 away games for each pod. The same pairings could be used the following year with the home and away teams flipped as has been done in the ACC-Big 10 challenge. Alternatively, all the games could be located at one site like a preseason conference pod vs. pod tournament.

    The ACC tournament would then be seeded according to the Pod's records against the other pods, including the "Pod Challenge". The top pod would get the 1, 5, 9, and 13 seeds. The next best pod would get the 2, 6, 10, and 14 seeds, etc. No two teams from the same pod would play each other the first day, and upsets would be required for teams from the same pod to play at all.

    I know all this sounds awfully complicated, but here are the advantages:
    1. Each team within a given pod plays the same regular season schedule.
    2. 14 regular season conference games leaves room for plenty of out of conference games.
    3. In any given four year period, each team would play home and away against every other team in the conference at least once.
    4. The "Pod Challenge" would add some early season excitement and would mean something for seeding purposes in the ACC tournament.
    5. Disparities between relative strengths of the 4 pods would be accounted for in seeding of the tournament.
    6. Travel expenses could be significantly reduced (a North pod, a "Mountain pod", a North Carolina pod, and a South pod?)
    Last edited by AluminumDuke; 09-20-2011 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Assigned as Option 4 for clarity

  14. #14
    2 Divisions, intradivision home + away, extradivision once a year

    Original Recipe:
    Clemson
    Duke
    Georgia Tech
    Maryland
    North Carolina
    NC State
    Virginia
    Wake Forest

    Extra Crispy:
    Florida State
    Miami
    Virginia Tech
    Boston College
    Syracuse
    Pitt
    New Team 1
    New Team 2

    16-team tourney, with first round OR1 vs EC8, etc., being a home game at higher seed's arena on Mon or Tues night.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by AluminumDuke View Post
    Option 4?

    I'd go with a 4 pod system. I'd have each pod play home and away games against each podmate (6 "intra-pod" games), and then have home games against one pod and road games against another (8 "inter-pod" games). A six year cycle would evenly provide for every possible "inter-pod" match-up.
    That's a 14 game variation of option 1, where you only play 2 (instead of 3) of the other pods every year. I don't like it because the schedules can be extremely unbalanced. (BTW, the 22 game option 2 is the only completely balalnaced schedule proposed.)

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    My head exploded just prior to the last line.

    You mean like this:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJi9qGX-ls

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by AluminumDuke View Post
    Option 4?

    I'd go with a 4 pod system. I'd have each pod play home and away games against each podmate (6 "intra-pod" games), and then have home games against one pod and road games against another (8 "inter-pod" games). A six year cycle would evenly provide for every possible "inter-pod" match-up.

    Each pod would then have a pod with which there would be no "inter-pod" games in a given season. Those pods could be matched up in a pre-season "Pod Challenge" akin to the ACC-Big 10 challenge. These games wouldn't count towards the conference records but would contribute towards seeding the pods in the ACC tournament. Each pod could choose its own 1-4 for pairing purposes in the "Pod Challenge", with 2 home games and 2 away games for each pod. The same pairings could be used the following year with the home and away teams flipped as has been done in the ACC-Big 10 challenge. Alternatively, all the games could be located at one site like a preseason conference pod vs. pod tournament.

    The ACC tournament would then be seeded according to the Pod's records against the other pods, including the "Pod Challenge". The top pod would get the 1, 5, 9, and 13 seeds. The next best pod would get the 2, 6, 10, and 14 seeds, etc. No two teams from the same pod would play each other the first day, and upsets would be required for teams from the same pod to play at all.

    I know all this sounds awfully complicated, but here are the advantages:
    1. Each team within a given pod plays the same regular season schedule.
    2. 14 regular season conference games leaves room for plenty of out of conference games.
    3. In any given four year period, each team would play home and away against every other team in the conference at least once.
    4. The "Pod Challenge" would add some early season excitement and would mean something for seeding purposes in the ACC tournament.
    5. Disparities between relative strengths of the 4 pods would be accounted for in seeding of the tournament.
    6. Travel expenses could be significantly reduced (a North pod, a "Mountain pod", a North Carolina pod, and a South pod?)
    Very interesting, AluminumDuke. I like your ideas. Now, how to set the 4 pods? I'll take a shot...work with me on the seedings.

    South
    Clemson
    Florida State
    Georgia Tech
    Miami

    Tobacco Road
    Duke
    NC State
    North Carolina
    Wake Forest

    National
    Maryland
    Notre Dame or UConn
    Virginia
    Virginia Tech

    North
    Boston College
    Penn State or Rutgers
    Pittsburgh
    Syracuse

    Open to suggestions...
    Last edited by Verga3; 09-20-2011 at 10:49 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Hasn't Coach K explained previously that an 18-game conference schedule is already the max he thinks is reasonable (out-of-conference games are important for various reasons including strength of scheduling, exposure to playing styles, preparation, etc)? I could've sworn he said this after last season in an interview somewhere.

    I could certainly be wrong, but in any event, I think we can forget about the 22-game conference schedule. 22 games+4 ACC tourney games = 26 games out of about 34 total games before the NCAAT. Factor in 2-3 cupcakes (warmups/winter break) and a 3-game in-season tourney and perhaps an ACC/B1G Challenge game (if that sticks around) and we're talking only one flexible scheduling game.

    If I were a betting man (and I am), I would bet against this option as it seems unreasonable.

    - Chillin
    Last edited by ChillinDuke; 09-20-2011 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Removed quote

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    Hasn't Coach K explained previously that an 18-game conference schedule is already the max he thinks is reasonable (out-of-conference games are important for various reasons including strength of scheduling, exposure to playing styles, preparation, etc)? I could've sworn he said this after last season in an interview somewhere.

    If I were a betting man (and I am), I would bet against this option as it seems unreasonable.

    - Chillin
    With a a 22 game schedule, you have a November "preseason" and that's about it. The argument for it is that if you are playing a lot of different teams in conference then you don't need to play a lot of teams out of conference. Not my fave, but it is a balanced schedule.

    I'm not betting on anything. Someone will make a decision, and it won't be me.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    With a a 22 game schedule, you have a November "preseason" and that's about it. The argument for it is that if you are playing a lot of different teams in conference then you don't need to play a lot of teams out of conference. Not my fave, but it is a balanced schedule.
    I follow you. But we don't even play a balanced schedule in a 12-team league. Trying to balance it in a 14- or even 16-teamer seems overly structured.

    I understand the benefit(s)/fairness of a truly balanced schedule. But I think it is outweighed by the positives of having senior trips (Singler vs Oregon, Scheyer vs Iowa St.), home-and-home series (St Johns, GTown...sorry to bring up sore memories...but games like that grow a team IMO), big-arena preparation games (like Wash this year in NYC), marketing/exposure games (Butler last year), and just overall flexibility in the schedule.

    I still think 22 is unreasonable. But that's just my opinion, and others are free to disagree.

    - Chillin

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