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  1. #1781
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Why? What's the reasoning there? Is it just the added revenue that an associate membership for Notre Dame might bring? With football off the table there's a limit to how much of an effect that could have.
    With the Big 10 partnering with the Pac 12 to have their champions play in the Rose bowl (if either of them are not playing in the NC game) and the Bigh 12 partnering with the SEC in a bowl game for their 1st place teams, I think a partial member ND of the big 12 would further scare the teams like FSU who are already panicking by feeding into their fear that the ACC would be left out of the NC discussion. And imo, even a partial memeber ND would add increased value to the TV deals of the Big 12 b/c their football programs are desirable from a TV perspective and adding ND to the mix would only increase that popularity and value (for the away games that ND plays a Big 12 opponent).

  2. #1782
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    I thought Notre Dame's TV deal was only for their home games.

    I sympathize with them in one way. It would be very tough for them to join a conference (other than the B1G) and preserve their historical rivalries. They play Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, USC and Navy every year. How are you going to do that if you're stuck playing Duke or NC State all the time?
    I would argue that ND would have the opportunity to regularly teams like Clemson, Miami, FSU, Va-Tech, UNC, Pitt and Syracuse that would potentially be compelling games to watch; and they could renew a Catholic school rivalry by regulary playing BC. And most importantly, joining the ACC would allow all their teams an east coast connection that they apparently value.

  3. #1783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Class of '94 View Post
    I would argue that ND would have the opportunity to regularly teams like Clemson, Miami, FSU, Va-Tech, UNC, Pitt and Syracuse that would potentially be compelling games to watch; and they could renew a Catholic school rivalry by regulary playing BC. And most importantly, joining the ACC would allow all their teams an east coast connection that they apparently value.
    The bolded is the same pitch the Big XII is throwing out there. The ACC has a more compelling and sensible argument, though, because there are some (at least recent) football rivalries the ACC has with Notre Dame - BC, Pitt, Ga Tech, Syracuse, Miami. There is more familiarity in the Olympic sports, etc. with the former Big East schools. The geography fits ND's alumni to a "T" grabbing all of their hotspots other than Chicago.

    Everything but the money makes sense for Notre Dame to go to the ACC. But without football, I'm not sure ND moves the meter on the current contract much.

  4. #1784
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    The bolded is the same pitch the Big XII is throwing out there. The ACC has a more compelling and sensible argument, though, because there are some (at least recent) football rivalries the ACC has with Notre Dame - BC, Pitt, Ga Tech, Syracuse, Miami.
    The argument comes down to ND against those 5-6 ACC teams vs. ND against Texas/OU. You have more games with recent history in the ACC, but they only have national appeal if those teams are highly ranked. With Texas/OU, those are only two games, but they are guaranteed blockbusters, regardless of how well those teams are playing.

  5. #1785
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    The argument comes down to ND against those 5-6 ACC teams vs. ND against Texas/OU. You have more games with recent history in the ACC, but they only have national appeal if those teams are highly ranked. With Texas/OU, those are only two games, but they are guaranteed blockbusters, regardless of how well those teams are playing.
    I don't disagree, but the fight that I don't think the Big XII can win is convincing Notre Dame that they also have to travel to some grouping of Ames, Manhattan, Lubbock and Waco on an annual basis. The way this playoff thing is shaking out, ND will probably be able to stay independent in football for the foreseeable future. Might the ACC or Big 12 take ND's Olympic sports? Maybe. But neither should unless there is a clear path to football membership.

    Now, could UT and OU work out some kind of deal where *THEY* play Notre Dame on a regular basis in football in order to get ND's olympic sports into the Big 12? Sure. But my feeling is that it's still harmful to the Big 12 as a whole. And if ND is just going to move its Olympic sports from the Big East, the ACC is a much, much better fit. But, again, I'd be wary of that if I were the ACC, too.

    Honestly, I am afraid the ACC and Big 12 are both falling for the same trap the Big East did. In a perfect world, I'd like to see both conferences stand up for themselves and telL Notre Dame "all or nothing."

  6. #1786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Class of '94 View Post
    I would argue that ND would have the opportunity to regularly teams like Clemson, Miami, FSU, Va-Tech, UNC, Pitt and Syracuse that would potentially be compelling games to watch; and they could renew a Catholic school rivalry by regulary playing BC. And most importantly, joining the ACC would allow all their teams an east coast connection that they apparently value.
    They can play any of those teams they want to, just not all of them in the same season. People step on each other's necks to get a home&home with Notre Dame. Heck, we went up there with no return. They can schedule a Carolina or a BC in a given year--why are they going to sacrifice five historic rivalries in order to play a full ACC slate?

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  7. #1787
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    The argument comes down to ND against those 5-6 ACC teams vs. ND against Texas/OU. You have more games with recent history in the ACC, but they only have national appeal if those teams are highly ranked. With Texas/OU, those are only two games, but they are guaranteed blockbusters, regardless of how well those teams are playing.
    Perhaps, but Notre Dame can schedule pretty much anyone they want right now, and they are already choosing to schedule schools like BC, Pitt, Syracuse and Miami. So there has to be some draw for them there.

  8. #1788
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    They can play any of those teams they want to, just not all of them in the same season. People step on each other's necks to get a home&home with Notre Dame. Heck, we went up there with no return. They can schedule a Carolina or a BC in a given year--why are they going to sacrifice five historic rivalries in order to play a full ACC slate?
    Everything you've said has merit. I think it will eventually boil down to if future changes in college football in the Big East force ND to consider joining a conference in order to be in the championship game. Based on what we're hearing, it appears that ND can remain an independent in football. If the Big East crumbles, ND will need a home for its Olympic sports and that may aid in forcing ND to consider a conference and full memebership (if the conference can get away with playing hardball). But again, for me, it boils down to the fact that I rather see ND in the ACC (even as a hybrid member) than in another conference although it would have to add significant value to the ACC TV contracts to be worthwhile.

  9. #1789
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    Quote Originally Posted by Class of '94 View Post
    Everything you've said has merit. I think it will eventually boil down to if future changes in college football in the Big East force ND to consider joining a conference in order to be in the championship game. Based on what we're hearing, it appears that ND can remain an independent in football. If the Big East crumbles, ND will need a home for its Olympic sports and that may aid in forcing ND to consider a conference and full memebership (if the conference can get away with playing hardball). But again, for me, it boils down to the fact that I rather see ND in the ACC (even as a hybrid member) than in another conference although it would have to add significant value to the ACC TV contracts to be worthwhile.
    I assume the decision will be made by a handful of senior administrators and donors whose interests are probably unknowable to the likes of us. if they're Midwesterners, they'll never join the acc.

    if they see themselves as part of the east coast elite, things get interesting. if the acc allows them to keep most of their tv money via a special grandpa clause (maybe: we split acc games, but you keep southern cal and army) and also flesh out a Texas-like tv deal for their minor sports, which is likely to bring in some extra money in the next decade. and if they see an acc schedule as the surest path to a spot in the final 4. and if a couple big donors promise to make up for the possible shortfall, it seems possible.

  10. #1790
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    I assume the decision will be made by a handful of senior administrators and donors whose interests are probably unknowable to the likes of us. if they're Midwesterners, they'll never join the acc.

    if they see themselves as part of the east coast elite, things get interesting. if the acc allows them to keep most of their tv money via a special grandpa clause (maybe: we split acc games, but you keep southern cal and army) and also flesh out a Texas-like tv deal for their minor sports, which is likely to bring in some extra money in the next decade. and if they see an acc schedule as the surest path to a spot in the final 4. and if a couple big donors promise to make up for the possible shortfall, it seems possible.

    http://www2.dailyprogress.com/sports...-s-ar-2027629/

    Gene Corrigan talks about Notre Dame and the ACC here.

    plus, Penn State:


    'Corrigan used to drive the ACC athletic directors crazy because he was always talking expansion. When he took over as commish, the conference consisted of eight schools. However, when Penn State, formerly an independent, shocked the collegiate world by joining the Big 10, it shook Corrigan.

    “[Penn State] should have been with us,” Corrigan said. “Geographically and everything else made sense. So, from then on, every time we met as a league, we talked about expansion.”
    ......


    Corrigan had tried to push the league into going after Penn State, too, but there didn’t seem to be a strong interest by the rest of the league.'

    I think it is interesting that Corrigan had pushed for Penn State before Penn State joined the Big 10.

    Here is another article on Notre Dame, how it will need to be relevant in Southern Football in order to get back on top in Football, and why the way to do that would be through joining the ACC.

    http://www.southernpigskin.com/ACC/v...st-makes-sense

  11. #1791
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    I assume the decision will be made by a handful of senior administrators and donors whose interests are probably unknowable to the likes of us. if they're Midwesterners, they'll never join the acc.

    if they see themselves as part of the east coast elite, things get interesting. if the acc allows them to keep most of their tv money via a special grandpa clause (maybe: we split acc games, but you keep southern cal and army) and also flesh out a Texas-like tv deal for their minor sports, which is likely to bring in some extra money in the next decade. and if they see an acc schedule as the surest path to a spot in the final 4. and if a couple big donors promise to make up for the possible shortfall, it seems possible.
    Spot in the Final 4? If Notre Dame's decisionmakers are seriously thinking that they could be a player for spots in this new tournament, they're even more delusional than I thought. They haven't finished in the top 4 in 20 years.

  12. #1792
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Whitehr Notre Dame?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    I assume the decision will be made by a handful of senior administrators and donors whose interests are probably unknowable to the likes of us. if they're Midwesterners, they'll never join the acc.

    if they see themselves as part of the east coast elite, things get interesting. if the acc allows them to keep most of their tv money via a special grandpa clause (maybe: we split acc games, but you keep southern cal and army) and also flesh out a Texas-like tv deal for their minor sports, which is likely to bring in some extra money in the next decade. and if they see an acc schedule as the surest path to a spot in the final 4. and if a couple big donors promise to make up for the possible shortfall, it seems possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Spot in the Final 4? If Notre Dame's decisionmakers are seriously thinking that they could be a player for spots in this new tournament, they're even more delusional than I thought. They haven't finished in the top 4 in 20 years.
    Let me cite different quotes from the Corrigan article that selected by FDA. Corrigan, both ND athletic director and ACC commissioner IIRC, made some interesting points:

    1. Notre Dame and its major supporters view ND as a "national power," playing teams all over the country. Conference membership and constraints run crosswise to this view.

    2. Notre Dame has a lot in common with many of the ACC schools, including the privates (Duke, Wake, BC, Syracuse, and maybe not Miami) and public universities Georgia Tech, UNC and Virginia. It has nothing in common with any school in the Big 12. (Baylor and TCU... puh-leese!)

    3. The ACC time and again has turned down schools that want a special deal, where they don't fully participate in all sports, especially football.

    I don't know where this leads, but I don't believe it leads Notre Dame to either the Big 12 or the ACC.

    sagegrouse

  13. #1793
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Spot in the Final 4? If Notre Dame's decisionmakers are seriously thinking that they could be a player for spots in this new tournament, they're even more delusional than I thought. They haven't finished in the top 4 in 20 years.
    Here is what Notre Dame is thinking, and it's not dissimilar from Florida St. It was once a power, and its alumni, for better or worse, continually see it as being on the cusp of getting there again. Here is where they differ from FSU, though, re: upgrading conference affiliation: the playoff does not have a conference champion requirement (or even any conference champ in top 6 requirement), meaning that Notre Dame isn't getting frozen out by the rules if they can put together a 0 or 1 loss team. Over time, this new structure could very well *not* benefit Notre Dame, but for now, it's the best possible path for remaining independent in football.

    So if you are of the mind (and I'm not saying you are wrong) that ND is going to continue to struggle, being *IN* a conference doesn't really help them out much either, especially when they have the NBC contract keeping them fat and happy. There just isn't any incentive, right now, for ND to join a conference in football. And because of that, if I'm the ACC or Big XII (and especially, if I'm the Big XII where there aren't traditional rivalries in the olympic sports), I tell them to take a hike until they bring football with them. Notre Dame is looking to fool someone like they did the Big East.

  14. #1794
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Here is what Notre Dame is thinking, and it's not dissimilar from Florida St. It was once a power, and its alumni, for better or worse, continually see it as being on the cusp of getting there again. Here is where they differ from FSU, though, re: upgrading conference affiliation: the playoff does not have a conference champion requirement (or even any conference champ in top 6 requirement), meaning that Notre Dame isn't getting frozen out by the rules if they can put together a 0 or 1 loss team. Over time, this new structure could very well *not* benefit Notre Dame, but for now, it's the best possible path for remaining independent in football.

    So if you are of the mind (and I'm not saying you are wrong) that ND is going to continue to struggle, being *IN* a conference doesn't really help them out much either, especially when they have the NBC contract keeping them fat and happy. There just isn't any incentive, right now, for ND to join a conference in football. And because of that, if I'm the ACC or Big XII (and especially, if I'm the Big XII where there aren't traditional rivalries in the olympic sports), I tell them to take a hike until they bring football with them. Notre Dame is looking to fool someone like they did the Big East.
    Your point is valid. It's just that playing the schedules they have, totally under their own control, they also haven't finished the regular season with 0 or 1 loss in 20 years!

    In terms of scheduling, it doesn't seem that there'd be a gigantic difference playing a typical schedule they have now vs. something like an ACC schedule. Tough games they schedule as an independent include Michigan, Michigan State, USC for sure every year. Stanford hasn't always been tough, but they sure are now. Depending on the year, they might have a tough one with Pitt, Purdue, maybe Penn State, maybe Air Force, and then some intended gimmes like Navy, Wake Forest, or whoever. Sometimes they even have an additional top-flight team in there, as in the past they've had series with the likes of Tennessee, Texas, FSU, and Miami, though not recently since they realized those schedules just become too hard.

    But if they join the ACC, they've got a tough game against Virginia Tech every year, FSU and Miami have been far off their historical peaks, though FSU seems to be coming back some now, and then Clemson is usually decent or better. Then there are a lot of pretty mediocre programs - good a year or two here or there, then down some. But if in addition to Va Tech, FSU, Miami, and an "up" ACC team, be it Virginia, GT, Clemson, State, or Duke you AlSO add in the traditional games with Michigan and USC, that's just as tough a schedule as you had as an independent.

    Maybe it does just come down to the TV money then. The NBC deal is great for them, and they keep it all. Moving to a league doesn't bring them closer to a championship due to the scheduling, and the TV money dynamics change for the worse.

  15. #1795
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Maybe it does just come down to the TV money then. The NBC deal is great for them, and they keep it all. Moving to a league doesn't bring them closer to a championship due to the scheduling, and the TV money dynamics change for the worse.

    This, and ND's burning desire to remain independent. I just don't see any incentive beyond ND missing out on the top 4 with a 1 loss team to other 1 loss teams, especially if one of the key criterium is that those other 1 loss teams won their conferences. And to really force a move, that probably has to happen more than once. ND will *never* miss out if they are undefeated. Not ever. Any offer of Notre Dame's olympic sports as a path to getting ND in the fold in football is a bridge to nowhere in my opinion.

  16. #1796
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    Delaware
    Just saw on the ESPN bottom line that Andy Katz is reporting that Suracuse will be I the ACC next July and pay the Big East 7.5 million dollars. Pitt is expected to strike a similar deal soon. If this is true, I think t will be the least shocking bit of realignment news in quite some time.

  17. #1797
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMatt33 View Post
    Just saw on the ESPN bottom line that Andy Katz is reporting that Suracuse will be I the ACC next July and pay the Big East 7.5 million dollars. Pitt is expected to strike a similar deal soon. If this is true, I think t will be the least shocking bit of realignment news in quite some time.
    We can start looking forward to some seriously upgraded ACC opponents a little sooner.

  18. #1798
    Quote Originally Posted by SCMatt33 View Post
    Just saw on the ESPN bottom line that Andy Katz is reporting that Suracuse will be I the ACC next July and pay the Big East 7.5 million dollars. Pitt is expected to strike a similar deal soon. If this is true, I think t will be the least shocking bit of realignment news in quite some time.
    It's also interesting that there hasn't been any new or additional information about ND and the ACC partnering together for the Orange bowl. I wonder how that is going and does no news mean good news? I know there are good reasons for not doing this; but I'm wondering if the ACC is now more open to bringing in ND as a partial member. I remembereing reading an internet article a few days ago where the writer wondered if the changing landscape has caused the ACC to reconsider its' all in or not at all mentality in regards to the full membership.

  19. #1799
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    ND as a semi-full member: A 15 team proposal

    If ND doesn’t want to come as a full member, I’d rather stick with 14 or take UConn and Rutgers. But, as a third alternative, I’d grudgingly accept the following three-pronged proposal:

    • Two divisions, one with seven teams, and another with eight. ND will always be in the seven team division.
    • Within-division records will be the primary determinant of the conference champions. Extradivisional records would only be used to break ties. The teams in the eight team division would play two extradivisional games each for a total conference schedule of nine games, and 16 total intradivisional games. Four of the teams in the 7 team division would play 3 extradivisional games for a nine game conference schedule. Two of the teams would play two extradivisional games for an 8 game conference schedule. ND would play no extradivisional games for a six game conference schedule.
    • The memberships of the divisions will vary from year to year. Pods could be used to mix things up while still providing some consistency in the schedule. For example, the three possible combinations of the following pods could be cycled every three years:

    [table="width: 500, align: center"]

    Outlier North Central South
    BC Maryland Duke Clemson
    Miami Pitt UNC FSU
    ND Syracuse NC State GT
    VT UVA Wake

  20. #1800
    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    If ND doesn’t want to come as a full member, I’d rather stick with 14 or take UConn and Rutgers. But, as a third alternative, I’d grudgingly accept the following three-pronged proposal:

    • Two divisions, one with seven teams, and another with eight. ND will always be in the seven team division.
    • Within-division records will be the primary determinant of the conference champions. Extradivisional records would only be used to break ties. The teams in the eight team division would play two extradivisional games each for a total conference schedule of nine games, and 16 total intradivisional games. Four of the teams in the 7 team division would play 3 extradivisional games for a nine game conference schedule. Two of the teams would play two extradivisional games for an 8 game conference schedule. ND would play no extradivisional games for a six game conference schedule.
    • The memberships of the divisions will vary from year to year. Pods could be used to mix things up while still providing some consistency in the schedule. For example, the three possible combinations of the following pods could be cycled every three years:

    [table="width: 500, align: center"]

    Outlier North Central South
    BC Maryland Duke Clemson
    Miami Pitt UNC FSU
    ND Syracuse NC State GT
    VT UVA Wake
    I like the idea...And by including ND in a division and having their divisional/conference record count towards qualifying for the conference championship game, it would allow ND to be identified with the ACC while allowing ND to have a national, "independent" schedule. The question would be if the Conference Presidents and AD would go along with such a plan.

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