The Conference Realignment Vigil- Update: Terps to Big10?

[Class of '94]

I think they can vote to dissolve the league at some point, but I don't know how that works vis a vis the basketball schools. It's a lot more complicated than, say, if A&M and Mizzou went to SEC and Texas, OU, OSU and TTech went to Pac 12, and they just voted to dissolve league to avoid having to pay exit fees.

What someone mentioned here I believe (or maybe it was somewhere else), is that if the Big XII felt it was more important to get WVU (or Lousiville) starting next year then it is to stay at 10 teams, they could tell the Big East, "Release WVU now or we'll take on Rutgers and Louisville too and kill the league." I think that "bluff" would likely get called, but if the votes of the basketball schools complicate the football schools' ability to dissolve the conference for football purposes and eliminate the notice period and exit fees, perhaps it might work. It could force the Big East to let WVU go now in exchange for WVU paying the exit fee and start play as soon as Mizzou leaves the Big XII.

The one chip the Big East still has is a BCS auto-bid. If letting WVU go in exchange for detente with the Big XII after that allows them to raid CUSA/MWC and get back to 8 teams, they'll have 3 or 4 years of autobids, which is opportunity to show it still deserves one when the new contract comes up.

If the BE was to let WVU leave for the Big 12 to play there next season,wouldn't they also in fairness have to let Pitt and Syracuse leave for the AC early as well? I wouldn't be surprised if the BE commissioner makes any team that wants to leave stay for the next couple of years in order to give them the best chance of prolonging/holding onto their AQ status.

[formerdukeathlete]

Either of the two schools that would come in with ND (UConn or Rutgers) are in the New York area. ND and Syracuse have scheduled two future games in the Meadowlands. I think they will take turns being the home team. ND could probably also get UConn to play their home games against ND in the NY area.

Unless you just look at AAU accreditation, I don't there much to choose from between between the B1G and the ACC. In fact, as far as the undergraduate components of the Universities go, I would say the ACC is better.

Football is also a wash. The B10 has more tradition and better attendance, but I don't think the actual football is very different. The B1G has some really weak teams too -- check out average Sagarin ratings over the last five years. They are very close. Notre Dame would be competitive in either league, but they would have a hard time winning in either one.

Geography. Average travel times for athletes would definitely be less in the B1G. About the only school in the ACC ND could bus to is Pitt. But, the thing is, ND wants to be an eastern team. That's why they play in the BE now. Even if ND joins, the most geographically challenged team in the ACC is Miami (but of course they have little choice).

I dont have a sense at this point about the chances of Notre Dame coming our way.

But, a few points.

Re the Big 10 research consortium, Notre Dame is not as much a research driven school as most of the Big 10. It is not an AAU member.

While closer to Big 10 schools on average than to ACC schools, Notre Dame is in the eastern quarter of the country geographically and it is in the eastern time zone.

The ACC offers a footprint in the growing Southeast, as well as a strong presence in major metros along the East coast.

The ACC offers higher on average ranked undergraduate programs, as well as 5 other private universities, including one Catholic university, which is the only other Catholic school playing BCS Football at the moment.

The ACC traditionally offers the best basketball.

[OldPhiKap]

I dont have a sense at this point about the chances of Notre Dame coming our way.

But, a few points.

Re the Big 10 research consortium, Notre Dame is not as much a research driven school as most of the Big 10. It is not an AAU member.

While closer to Big 10 schools on average than to ACC schools, Notre Dame is in the eastern quarter of the country geographically and it is in the eastern time zone.

The ACC offers a footprint in the growing Southeast, as well as a strong presence in major metros along the East coast.

The ACC offers higher on average ranked undergraduate programs, as well as 5 other private universities, including one Catholic university, which is the only other Catholic school playing BCS Football at the moment.

The ACC traditionally offers the best basketball.

Excellent points, and the ACC has excellent lacrosse, soccer, etc. as well.


Looking at it from inside ND, one would have to think that staying with the BE for olympic sports is less enviting than it was as well. Two good basketball teams have left, and I think those schools are also stronger in the other non-football realms than the new potential adds for the most part. So ND can keep football independence at the expense of the other programs, or bite the bullet and get the best conference deal they can overall in the new landscape of college sports. The ACC makes a lot of sense, and given the ABC/ESPN connection we have, there should be a way to work a deal with NBC covering their home games and non-conference games while ABC/ESPN covers away conference games.

[A-Tex Devil]

If the BE was to let WVU leave for the Big 12 to play there next season,wouldn't they also in fairness have to let Pitt and Syracuse leave for the AC early as well? I wouldn't be surprised if the BE commissioner makes any team that wants to leave stay for the next couple of years in order to give them the best chance of prolonging/holding onto their AQ status.

Good point. I would assume that Syracuse and Pitt would be part of that discussion. I think the ACC and Big XII can play the card that if the Big East wants to survive with what it has left (i.e. not get picked off until they are left with South Florida) it needs to let out the teams that have invites. It's a pretty nasty pill for the remaining Big East schools to swallow, but they might do it.

[Duvall]

Boise State talking to the Big West about hosting its non-football sports.

That means we could see Boise State football in the Big East and Boise State basketball in the Big West AT THE SAME TIME. That wrinkles my brain.

[BD80]

Wow, if I was West Virginia, I would be waay pissed right now. Then again, what can they do?

The list of BEast football schools who want to stay in the BEast consists of... uhhh... maybe South Florida, right? Are there any others? UConn, Ville, Rutgers, WVa, and Cincy aer all desperate to flee for somewhere else. Sorta sad.

-Jason "why is no one talking about the combo BEast, Conf USA, Mountain West 32 team superconference? It might be a mess but they could have a cool playoff/championship!!" Evans

Is the Mountain West considered "mid-major?" How about conf usa? The Big East is now, at best, the 6th best basketball conference.

ACC
SEC
Big 12 - or so
Big 10 - plus some
Pac 10 - give or take
Big East - of the Pacific

[uh_no]

The Big East is now, at best, the 6th best basketball conference.

Yeah...now they're down to only 8/13 teams who made the tournament last year. While obviously not as good, having lost 3 of their top teams, there's no reason to no longer consider them on par with the ACC and Big 10/12. In terms of the ACC, certainly connecticut is the only team on par with UNC and Duke, but villanova, ND, georgetown, louisvilla, and marquette are by no means mediocre, and certainly not to the level that the non UNC Duke and (maybe FSU) schools in the ACC have been. And this is discounting cincinatti and st johns, who also made the tournament.

Obviously the league is not nearly as good as it was, but its still a very good basketball league.

[throatybeard]

John Denver went to Texas Tech for a time. There has to be a new annual trophy somewhere in an annual Texas Tech-West Virginia.

I vote for "The Mountain Mama," although that doesn't make much sense on the high plains of Lubbock.

Annie's Trophy.

[Scorp4me]

Yeah...now they're down to only 8/13 teams who made the tournament last year. While obviously not as good, having lost 3 of their top teams, there's no reason to no longer consider them on par with the ACC and Big 10/12. In terms of the ACC, certainly connecticut is the only team on par with UNC and Duke, but villanova, ND, georgetown, louisvilla, and marquette are by no means mediocre, and certainly not to the level that the non UNC Duke and (maybe FSU) schools in the ACC have been. And this is discounting cincinatti and st johns, who also made the tournament.

Obviously the league is not nearly as good as it was, but its still a very good basketball league.

I'm not saying you're wrong (although I ain't saying you're right), but with 17 teams in a conference I'm not sure sheer number of teams simply making a tournament is an indicator of success.

[uh_no]

I'm not saying you're wrong (although I ain't saying you're right), but with 17 teams in a conference I'm not sure sheer number of teams simply making a tournament is an indicator of success.

Certainly its not the best indicator, and no indicator can encompass every definition of "best" conference... but to suggest that the big east is now suddenly worse than the mostly harmless pac12 (at least) and not on par with the other "big 6" (can hardly call them a bcs conference anymore) is simply wishful thinking by big east hating acc fans. To remove three of the top5 teams from the conference and still have 8 tournament teams is still an impressive feat and the horridness and indicates a stupendous depth in the middle 50% of the conference that the acc, sec, and pac 10 have lacked for some time.

Again, it all comes down to how you define "best" conference, and its really a meaningless and subjective exercise anyway, and by some measures you could say they they're #1, by some you could say they're #6. Its simply a matter of choosing the particular facts to prove your point.

[ACCBBallFan]

Yeah...now they're down to only 8/13 teams who made the tournament last year. While obviously not as good, having lost 3 of their top teams, there's no reason to no longer consider them on par with the ACC and Big 10/12. In terms of the ACC, certainly Connecticut is the only team on par with UNC and Duke, but Villanova, ND, Georgetown, Louisville, and Marquette are by no means mediocre, and certainly not to the level that the non UNC Duke and (maybe FSU) schools in the ACC have been. And this is discounting Cincinnati and St. John's, who also made the tournament.

Obviously the league is not nearly as good as it was, but its still a very good basketball league.

Unless BE adds teams like Temple and Memphis which does nothing to strengthen its football, in basketball, the BE takes a double hit. BE not only loses good programs like Syracuse, Pitt, and West VA at top, it concurrently gains more poor ones like Houston, SMU, UCF, ECU etc at the bottom, joining an already weak Seton Hall, DePaul, USF, Rutgers and Providence to have 8 very weak teams.

ACC and other conferences typically have 3-4 very weak teams like Wake, BC, GA Tech and this year MD, but not 8 which is even more bad teams than the 6 or so very bad teams in P12 or SEC.

B1G has Iowa, NW, Penn State and Nebraska. B12 has so few t4eams it cannot have many weak ones at bottom, just the Oklahomas, TX Tech and Iowa St.

So yes, BE will have several very good and some good teams at top but just as many bad ones at the bottom.

[ForkFondler]

Unless BE adds teams like Temple and Memphis which does nothing to strengthen its football, in basketball, the BE takes a double hit. BE not only loses good programs like Syracuse, Pitt, and West VA at top, it concurrently gains more poor ones like Houston, SMU, UCF, ECU etc at the bottom, joining an already weak Seton Hall, DePaul, USF, Rutgers and Providence to have 8 very weak teams.

ACC and other conferences typically have 3-4 very weak teams like Wake, BC, GA Tech and this year MD, but not 8 which is even more bad teams than the 6 or so very bad teams in P12 or SEC.

B1G has Iowa, NW, Penn State and Nebraska. B12 has so few t4eams it cannot have many weak ones at bottom, just the Oklahomas, TX Tech and Iowa St.

So yes, BE will have several very good and some good teams at top but just as many bad ones at the bottom.

Which is why the BE should jettison football and just concetrate on basketball. Instead of raiding CUSA once again, the remaining football schools should join CUSA for football only. Or the Sun Belt:

SunBeastConf.jpg

[Class of '94]

I know all the arguments concerning why the ACC would be a good fit for ND; but with the ACC rightfully wanting ND in all sports and ND's desire to ideally remain independent in football, would ND go to the Big 12 since there appears to be an offer on the table by the Big 12 for ND to join that conference in all sports but football?

[ForkFondler]

I know all the arguments concerning why the ACC would be a good fit for ND; but with the ACC rightfully wanting ND in all sports and ND's desire to ideally remain independent in football, would ND go to the Big 12 since there appears to be an offer on the table by the Big 12 for ND to join that conference in all sports but football?

No way. Bad geographic fit for both athletes and alumni, plus no lacrosse or soccer. Either they stay in the BE, or they go to the ACC. If you like longshots, go with the B1G.

[Duvall]

I know all the arguments concerning why the ACC would be a good fit for ND; but with the ACC rightfully wanting ND in all sports and ND's desire to ideally remain independent in football, would ND go to the Big 12 since there appears to be an offer on the table by the Big 12 for ND to join that conference in all sports but football?

It's impossible to predict what ND is going to do, because their preferences are unlike any other major school. But it's hard to see why they would choose to associate themselves with a Great Plains conference with chaotic governance if they have any other choices. Even the tattered remnants of the Big East seems like a better option at this point.

[-bdbd]

Unless BE adds teams like Temple and Memphis which does nothing to strengthen its football, in basketball, the BE takes a double hit. BE not only loses good programs like Syracuse, Pitt, and West VA at top, it concurrently gains more poor ones like Houston, SMU, UCF, ECU etc at the bottom, joining an already weak Seton Hall, DePaul, USF, Rutgers and Providence to have 8 very weak teams.

ACC and other conferences typically have 3-4 very weak teams like Wake, BC, GA Tech and this year MD, but not 8 which is even more bad teams than the 6 or so very bad teams in P12 or SEC.

B1G has Iowa, NW, Penn State and Nebraska. B12 has so few t4eams it cannot have many weak ones at bottom, just the Oklahomas, TX Tech and Iowa St.

So yes, BE will have several very good and some good teams at top but just as many bad ones at the bottom.

I'm just wondering who anybody thinks the BE will add - as they've stated they want to get back to 10-12 and maintain their AQ status (and probably a championship game) - and maintain their "per school average FB quality?" The only FB addition that I've heard of that doesn't reduce that FB team quality average is Boise State, which is certainly not a done deal. But schools like Navy, Houston, SMU, Memphis, Temple, Villanova (FB upgrade to D1), Air Force, etc certainly do not help their average program FB quality relative to today's BE.

In fact, after they lose Syr., Pitt, WV,and potentially L'ville, U-Con and/or Rutgers, even if replaced by the aforementioned slate of new additions, it is very suspect wheter they can retain their AQ status every year... Once WV finally goes to the Big12 - especially if L'ville goes too - the BE is in deep doo-doo for FB. If I'm AF and Nacy, I'm really wondering if I'd still want to join.

[TexHawk]

I know all the arguments concerning why the ACC would be a good fit for ND; but with the ACC rightfully wanting ND in all sports and ND's desire to ideally remain independent in football, would ND go to the Big 12 since there appears to be an offer on the table by the Big 12 for ND to join that conference in all sports but football?

While I did say before the ND to the Big12 is a pipe dream, the Big12 does offer one thing for ND football if they ever want to join in all sports: They would likely keep their NBC deal. Not getting that in the ACC or B10.

[Troublemaker]

As of right now, every U.S. state represented in the ACC is actually part of the "Atlantic Coast" (if, like me, you count the Delaware River running pass Philadelphia as part of the "Atlantic Ocean").

If the ACC goes from 14 to 16, I'd like to keep it that way if possible. I'd add Rutgers but not Louisville, for example. Of course it doesn't really matter; I'd just think it'd be cool if the conference can continue to retain the truthiness of its name.

[sagegrouse]

As of right now, every U.S. state represented in the ACC is actually part of the "Atlantic Coast" (if, like me, you count the Delaware River running pass Philadelphia as part of the "Atlantic Ocean").

If the ACC goes from 14 to 16, I'd like to keep it that way if possible. I'd add Rutgers but not Louisville, for example. Of course it doesn't really matter; I'd just think it'd be cool if the conference can continue to retain the truthiness of its name.

Yes, Pennsylvania counts as an Atlantic coast state. Here are today's tides for the Philadelphia, PA Municipal Pier

Date		Time	AM/PM	Feet
				
27	High	2:04	AM	7.2
27	Low	9:00	AM	0.1
27	High	2:27	PM	7.9
27	Low	9:38	PM	0.1

sagegrouse
'I am surprised at how strong the tidal bore is that far from Cape Henlopen'

[ForkFondler]

As of right now, every U.S. state represented in the ACC is actually part of the "Atlantic Coast" (if, like me, you count the Delaware River running pass Philadelphia as part of the "Atlantic Ocean").

If the ACC goes from 14 to 16, I'd like to keep it that way if possible. I'd add Rutgers but not Louisville, for example. Of course it doesn't really matter; I'd just think it'd be cool if the conference can continue to retain the truthiness of its name.

I'm inclined to agree, but the Great Lakes drain into the Atlantic.