The Conference Realignment Vigil- Update: Terps to Big10?

[Scorp4me]

I had read that a day or two ago, and while certainly interesting, I don't think it is necessarily indicative of anyone intending to leave. I think it has more to do with a fear that if the ACC were to begin to implode, then those schools would be stuck.

Hadn't considered that as a reason but it makes a lot of sense.

I also saw where the new Big 12 commissioner is making an effort to retain A&M. He seems to think he has little chance but I'm not so sure. It already looks as if the ACC will be the only conference to expand to 14 (or at all). If A&M stays I think it cast even more questions on the move. Everyone was screaming proactive...I wish they had been patient.

[throatybeard]

Look Uh_NO, I think everyone here, irrespective of the rivalry snot and the completely unjustified USNews snot, knows what UConnn could bring to the ACC in sports.

The actual substantive, principled resistance--what little there is--has to do with the utter dirtiness of Calhoun's program. And I don't say that as someone who likes to get off on feeling superior to all the other programs, like so many here do. UConn MBB is not a program you want in your conference. They're just not. Apologies.

[uh_no]

Look Uh_NO, I think everyone here, irrespective of the rivalry snot and the completely unjustified USNews snot, knows what UConnn could bring to the ACC in sports.

The actual substantive, principled resistance--what little there is--has to do with the utter dirtiness of Calhoun's program. And I don't say that as someone who likes to get off on feeling superior to all the other programs, like so many here do. UConn MBB is not a program you want in your conference. They're just not. Apologies.

(apologies throaty if I come across as arrogant here...especially in trying to rebut arguments which you have not yet made or might not have made...i'm simply playing devils advocate against myself since It's long past bedtime and I want to try to make a full argument before I retire)

So under that assertion, any program which has had past violations should be unwanted by any conference. Is that what you're suggesting? Then why does the ACC desire to maintain Carolina and FSU as members? Is it that once you're in the ACC, having violations does not make you undesirable, but if you're on the outside violations make you undesirable? If you answer that it's because they've proven them valuable members of the conference, I'll reply that both schools are proof that you can be a valuable member of the conferences despite having dirty programs. I'll also point out that "value" seems to be determined by football, and uconn has had a squeaky clean football program. Therefore it would seem that Uconn could be a valuable member of the ACC despite having a dirty program. If you disagree with that assertion, then you necessarily think that because Uconn's transgressions occurred while in the Big east as opposed to the ACC, they are more unacceptable.

Perhaps you think its because calhoun is still the coach, while Butch and Bowden are both gone, and I concede that that would be a fair point. But you would also imply that once the offending coach is gone, the program, and thus school, remain acceptable. I would then point out that it's likely calhoun will have retired before Uconn could be a member of the Big East, and thus would be acceptable to the ACC.

I'm curious what you think the difference is other than current conference affiliation.

[throatybeard]

I agree that that ACC is really dirty at present. I just don't think Calhoun's program is gonna help us with that. Rather, make it worse.

I have no respect for the snot directed towards the SEC in these parts. I have no respect for any of the snot in these parts. I'm just saying, even given that, UConn is a hard sell.

Really, in the grand scheme of things on this site, I'm on your side. And even given all that, Calhoun strikes me as...kind of uh-oh.

[dukebluelemur]

Since my initial post on this subject was rather brief, and you have been very persistent in your argument, let me expound on my position a bit. (Oh, and if it makes you feel better, I got a negative rep for my original post as well... though since it was unsigned, apparently consisted of nothing but swear words, and dinged me for a grand -0 points, I'm going to guess it was a random UCONN fan passing through.)


Look, none of us are happy about UNC etc. Their scandals have been a black mark on the ACC, but at least they were, to a degree, a surprise (even with the warning signs). But why should we accept a school that, it seems, has a booster scandal, NCAA investigation, or a player arrested on a yearly basis? Not a single person I know would be surprised if the NCAA showed up investigating some issue with Calhoun's program tomorrow, next month, or next year. It has become Expected.

To make matters worse, the Administration and fanbase of UCONN have consistently supported Calhoun and his merry band of delinquents, regardless of what has been happening, to the point of letting him basically run off the AD he didn't like and who might have cramped his style. It is this long-term, institutional acceptance of bad behavior that is most concerning to me with regards to their addition to the ACC. We have enough problems at the moment, why throw our arms open for a program that is virtually guaranteed to be attracting NCAA interest on a yearly basis, and does not seem to care?

Even if Calhoun was completely clean, UCONN would be problematic to me. UCONN posted the second lowest Academic Progress Score in the entire BCS in not one but three major sports (FB, MBB, WBB). I'm not saying the entire ACC is turning out athletic Rhodes Scholars, schools like Maryland and GTech were also mentioned, but to have three teams that low is remarkably ugly. And again, it's not like this is a one time deal with Calhoun.

So you have a clean football program, ethically speaking anyway. Congratulations. Yes, football is driving this, and UCONN may still get an invite. But on dukeBASKETBALLreport.com, we're going to be pretty focused on your program in that sport. UCONN has had a lot of success in basketball, from that perspective they would make a fun and challenging addition to the schedule. But, to me, to do so requires knowingly compromising standards most of us here would like to believe still mean something.

[dukebluelemur]

In addition (since the time limit to edit my post has expired), this debate has really been begging for one of these:

[ACCBBallFan]

Hadn't considered that as a reason but it makes a lot of sense.

I also saw where the new Big 12 commissioner is making an effort to retain A&M. He seems to think he has little chance but I'm not so sure. It already looks as if the ACC will be the only conference to expand to 14 (or at all). If A&M stays I think it cast even more questions on the move. Everyone was screaming proactive...I wish they had been patient.

Adding Syracuse and Pitt was a good move, even if the other conferences stay at 12 temporarily (if A&M stays in B12 since Arkansas turned down B12 overture).

It's adding UCONN and Rutgers too soon that would be a mistake, since it forgoes any opportunity of ever getting Notre Dame or Penn St.(Pitt helps here, and Cuse does not hurt case for either) They are not imminent but might be some day after Paterno and after Notre Dame realizes its days of independence are limited.

Probably at best get one not both, but better than none.

Eventually everybody goes to 16 anbd there are not 4 ACC could attract that are better than Cuse and Pitt.

Also gives some insurance if ACC loses someone (higher buyout helps but not as powerful as granting rights for 6 years like B12 is discussing) to already have Pitt and Cuse rather than appear to be desparate at that point.

[sagegrouse]

I agree that that ACC is really dirty at present. I just don't think Calhoun's program is gonna help us with that. Rather, make it worse.

I have no respect for the snot directed towards the SEC in these parts. I have no respect for any of the snot in these parts. I'm just saying, even given that, UConn is a hard sell.

Really, in the grand scheme of things on this site, I'm on your side. And even given all that, Calhoun strikes me as...kind of uh-oh.

I commend to you the Grantland article on UConn and its aspirations. He suggests an interesting point but doesn't make it specifically:

In a conference with a history of iconic basketball coaches who outsized their own programs — Thompson, Boeheim, Massimino, Carnesecca, Carlesimo, Pitino et al. — Calhoun has become bigger than them all.

What will UConn be after Calhoun retires? And who's to say it won't retreat to its Yankee Conference level of mediocrity? And since football at UConn began to get traction only after basketball became prominent, will that also signal a decline? This may be overly pessimistic, but to date, UConn athletics have been a one-trick pony.

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

I commend to you the Grantland article on UConn and its aspirations. He suggests an interesting point but doesn't make it specifically:



What will UConn be after Calhoun retires? And who's to say it won't retreat to its Yankee Conference level of mediocrity? And since football at UConn began to get traction only after basketball became prominent, will that also signal a decline? This may be overly pessimistic, but to date, UConn athletics have been a one-trick pony.

sagegrouse

Well, wth Gino, I'd say two tricks. And from the outside he seems like the definition of arrogance and brashness. Perhaps that is an unfair or inaccurate observation, but it's the one I hold nonetheless.

[sagegrouse]

Well, wth Gino, I'd say two tricks. And from the outside he seems like the definition of arrogance and brashness. Perhaps that is an unfair or inaccurate observation, but it's the one I hold nonetheless.

You're right -- I forgot Geno. UConn is a two-trick pony.

sagegrouse

[formerdukeathlete]

Adding Syracuse and Pitt was a good move, even if the other conferences stay at 12 temporarily (if A&M stays in B12 since Arkansas turned down B12 overture).

It's adding UCONN and Rutgers too soon that would be a mistake, since it forgoes any opportunity of ever getting Notre Dame or Penn St.(Pitt helps here, and Cuse does not hurt case for either) They are not imminent but might be some day after Paterno and after Notre Dame realizes its days of independence are limited.

Probably at best get one not both, but better than none.

Eventually everybody goes to 16 anbd there are not 4 ACC could attract that are better than Cuse and Pitt.

Also gives some insurance if ACC loses someone (higher buyout helps but not as powerful as granting rights for 6 years like B12 is discussing) to already have Pitt and Cuse rather than appear to be desparate at that point.

I would think Paterno leans toward joining the ACC right now, that it is about running the numbers at this point, estimating the revenue sharing were Penn State to join the ACC. In my view, it would be the best thing for Penn State and the ACC. And, somehow, when things so obviously lean in a particular direction, they end up going in that direction. And, hey, Paterno was a coach at Penn State when Murray was coach at Duke; he remembers when Duke had a consistently good Football team.

Notre Dame makes sense in so many ways, except geographically.

I think it will be Penn State and Rutgers.

[uh_no]

What will UConn be after Calhoun retires? And who's to say it won't retreat to its Yankee Conference level of mediocrity? And since football at UConn began to get traction only after basketball became prominent, will that also signal a decline? This may be overly pessimistic, but to date, UConn athletics have been a one-trick pony.

sagegrouse

These are certainly interesting questions, since Duke faces almost the exact same questions. Kevin Ollie is the heir apparent for the basketball team, and I've read that Calhoun is effectively preparing him to be the head coach. Coach K talks about setting the program up for success in the future after he leaves, and I don't think any of us would question that there are several ex player coaches who are ready to take the helm when the need arises. Calhoun cares about the future of the Uconn program much like K does, and is no doubt working in the same way K is (to the poster who'll respond to the previous sentence with a joke about probation...WOW...you're SOOOOOOO clever). With his recent flirting with retirement, I think HE thinks Ollie is ready.

In terms of football, of course football only gained attention lately...they were an FCS school until the university decided to go FBS in 2000 (?). But its kind of hard to criticize their program when in 10 years they went from 1AA to a BCS goal while Duke was averaging 2 wins a year. It is likely that Duke depends on mens basketball moreso than Uconn does. Both schools have strong programs in other sports, but both would be absolutely devastated from a huge decline in mens basketball. You might point out that duke had basketball success before K, but I question how relevant the success of the basketball team 40 years ago really affects its ability to sustain success after a hall of fame coach leaves.

[towerview road]

I thought you all might find this interesting. This past week I was at Syracuse for a business trip and interacted with a bunch of Syracuse University students. All of them said they were unhappy (when I asked) about the move to the ACC and several said all of their friends were unhappy, too. One young woman said that "we don't know why the president did this to us." (!)

The general consensus was that the students were most unhappy being in a conference without Villanova or Georgetown. All of the kids I spoke with (I asked where they were from) were from New York, New Jersey, or Pennsylvania and felt strong ties to playing in a conference with these teams. One boy said that "basketball and lacrosse were the only things we're good at and now they're taking away that from us." Several students repeated this idea that moving to the ACC meant they would no longer be be competitive in their conference.

I was surprised to be honest - I thought at least one student would be happy with the move to the ACC! Thought you might find this interesting...

[sagegrouse]

These are certainly interesting questions, since Duke faces almost the exact same questions. Kevin Ollie is the heir apparent for the basketball team, and I've read that Calhoun is effectively preparing him to be the head coach. Coach K talks about setting the program up for success in the future after he leaves, and I don't think any of us would question that there are several ex player coaches who are ready to take the helm when the need arises. Calhoun cares about the future of the Uconn program much like K does, and is no doubt working in the same way K is (to the poster who'll respond to the previous sentence with a joke about probation...WOW...you're SOOOOOOO clever). With his recent flirting with retirement, I think HE thinks Ollie is ready.

In terms of football, of course football only gained attention lately...they were an FCS school until the university decided to go FBS in 2000 (?). But its kind of hard to criticize their program when in 10 years they went from 1AA to a BCS goal while Duke was averaging 2 wins a year. It is likely that Duke depends on mens basketball moreso than Uconn does. Both schools have strong programs in other sports, but both would be absolutely devastated from a huge decline in mens basketball. You might point out that duke had basketball success before K, but I question how relevant the success of the basketball team 40 years ago really affects its ability to sustain success after a hall of fame coach leaves.

I dunno, Uh No. The point at question was that so many Big East teams fell off after their iconic coach retired: Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova, to name three. Duke has been a national power in hoops for 60 years.

sagegrouse

[Kedsy]

I dunno, Uh No. The point at question was that so many Big East teams fell off after their iconic coach retired: Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova, to name three. Duke has been a national power in hoops for 60 years.

Well, except for the 1970s, when Duke's performance fell off -- right after an iconic coach retired.

Georgetown and Villanova came back from their brief drop off. There's a decent chance UConn would too.

[Duvall]

Georgetown and Villanova came back from their brief drop off. There's a decent chance UConn would too.

Georgetown is in DC. Villanova is in Philadelphia. UConn is in Storrs. Slight difference in talent pools there.

[Kedsy]

Georgetown is in DC. Villanova is in Philadelphia. UConn is in Storrs. Slight difference in talent pools there.

On its 2010-11 roster, Villanova had exactly one (1) player from the Philadelphia area. Connecticut had exactly one (1) player from Connecticut.

These are national programs. I don't think differences in the local talent pool is a very good argument.

[Des Esseintes]

On its 2010-11 roster, Villanova had exactly one (1) player from the Philadelphia area. Connecticut had exactly one (1) player from Connecticut.

These are national programs. I don't think differences in the local talent pool is a very good argument.

I agree. I don't love the idea of UConn sticking around as a power, but Calhoun's sustained run of success has likely raised the program to a new level at which it can stick. Florida State football wasn't much before Bowden arrived, but we'd all agree that that job is now a good one with good prospects for the future. Programs slip, especially programs at private schools, but UCLA and Georgetown among several others have shown that time in the wilderness does not fundamentally damage the higher profile an iconic coach achieved.

On the Duke side, the (obvious) negative side of K's eventual retirement is losing the best coach in the game; the positive side is that his sustained run of excellence has fundamentally changed how the program is perceived. Duke was a distinguished program before K came along, but he will leave it as one of the two or three best jobs in the country. Calhoun is somewhat less accomplished, but his net effect upon his program is probably greater, given the depths from which he hauled it (insert ethics joke HERE). He remains unlikeable.

[Duvall]

On its 2010-11 roster, Villanova had exactly one (1) player from the Philadelphia area. Connecticut had exactly one (1) player from Connecticut.

These are national programs. I don't think differences in the local talent pool is a very good argument.

They are national programs now, with strong coaches. The question is whether they will remain national programs two to three coaches from now. If Georgetown or Villanova hits a rough patch they can always sustain themselves with local talent; UConn simply can't.

[Class of '94]

I had read that a day or two ago, and while certainly interesting, I don't think it is necessarily indicative of anyone intending to leave. I think it has more to do with a fear that if the ACC were to begin to implode, then those schools would be stuck.

Well, I'll say this....If teams like Fla St and MD want to go to a higher profile "football" conference like the SEC and Big 10, they better first become the best teams in the ACC; and based on watching them today, they still have a ways to go before that happen. Sad to say this; but MD was embarrasingly dominated by Temple; and while Fla St still has a half to go, Clemson is taking it to the Seminoles.