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  1. #1461
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    I just want to quickly chime in and say I don't think UConn to the ACC is a smart move at this time as some have advocated. The primary goal in taking them would be to add a prime basketball program. Well, I am not so sure UConn will stay on top much longer.

    Calhoun is likely in his final season. He has done an amazing job but, aside from his tenure, there is no historical basis for UConn being a basketball hotspot. One has to wonder how the program will fare once he leaves. Don't forget, DePaul was once one of the top programs in all of college basketball until Rey Meyer retired. His son took over and they were good for a few years but eventually faded to the point where they have not been a real factor on the national scene in more than a decade. There are other programs with similar stories. UConn could be the next.

    Also, it appears Calhoun is not going to leave the cupboard well-stocked. With the NCAA giving UConn a post-season ban for academic shortcomings in 2013 and Calhoun's health questions, UConn's recruiting this year has been poor. They have only signed Omar Calhoun, a top 50 shooting guard. They are still in the running for some impact players, but the coaching and post-season ban issues appear to be steering top-tier players elsewhere. The draft gurus out there all seem top think Jeremy Lamb and Andre Drummond will head to the NBA lottery after this season. With the post-season ban staring them in the face next year, stick around another season when you would have no chance to do anything meaningful in March would seem strange.

    The current roster has a lot of young players including Shabazz Napier and Ryan Boatright, who have both shown they can be quality players on a good team. They also have a few kids who were highly regarded coming out of high school like DeAndre Daniels and Roscoe Smith. But, one has to wonder how well they will do when asked to carry even more of a load with Drummond and Lamb gone. Heck, it is possible that a kid like Alex Oriakhi could leave too rather than playing his senior season at a school on a post-season ban. I believe he could transfer and be immediately eligible or he could try his hand at the NBA, though I think he would be a mid-late 2nd rounder at best.

    Regardless, we all know it only takes a year or two of poor recruiting classes for a program to really head south. UConn already appears on their way to one bad recruiting class in 2012... if Calhoun departs this summer, it is not at all unlikely that 2013 would also be a tough recruiting year.

    My point is that taking a wait-and-see approach to UConn may make a lot of sense at this point. We really need to know who will replace Calhoun and how that replacement will do before we can know where the UConn program is headed. I think the ACC admitting a school that is about to undergo a massive shift in its basketball culture and a school that is not a known football commodity would be a mistake.

    -Jason "Calhoun wants Kevin Ollie to replace him... Ollie has zero experience as a head coach" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  2. #1462
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I just want to quickly chime in and say I don't think UConn to the ACC is a smart move at this time as some have advocated. The primary goal in taking them would be to add a prime basketball program. Well, I am not so sure UConn will stay on top much longer
    I agree with this. Does Uconn stay in-family in the first place? What outsider would be a good fit? Billy Donovan? Shaka Smart?

    In addition to DePaul, other examples include Houston, Unlv and Notre Dame. Maybe Cincy post-Huggins. What these cases mostly had in common were a fanbase that didn't turn out to be all that large and/or devoted to basketball, the lack of membership in a major basketball conference (that would have provided teevee/recruiting exposure, natural rivalries, independent revenue streams etc) and a lack of "investment" from the school in perpetuating a strong basketball program. The latter means things like facilities, but also overall institutional giving-a-crapness. It's particularly a shame in DePaul's case, because it would have been relatively easy to build a new arena near campus around the time Ray Meyer was stepping down, and the void they left in Chicago sports has never really been filled.

    I think UConn faces similar risks. I've never perceived the UConn fanbase to be that big, or that extant at all outside New England. It seems most fans are happy they have UConn basketball to follow when the Red Sox/Yankees/Mets/Celtics/Giants/Patriots/Rangers/whoever are in their relative offseasons but can get by if they're not there. What has the school, or Calhoun, done to perpetuate UConn basketball?
    Between me and every ideal I always find Scheisskopfs, Peckems, Korns and Cathcarts. And that sort of changes the ideal. -- Joseph Heller

  3. #1463
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    I agree with this. Does Uconn stay in-family in the first place? What outsider would be a good fit? Billy Donovan? Shaka Smart?

    In addition to DePaul, other examples include Houston, Unlv and Notre Dame. Maybe Cincy post-Huggins. What these cases mostly had in common were a fanbase that didn't turn out to be all that large and/or devoted to basketball, the lack of membership in a major basketball conference (that would have provided teevee/recruiting exposure, natural rivalries, independent revenue streams etc) and a lack of "investment" from the school in perpetuating a strong basketball program. The latter means things like facilities, but also overall institutional giving-a-crapness. It's particularly a shame in DePaul's case, because it would have been relatively easy to build a new arena near campus around the time Ray Meyer was stepping down, and the void they left in Chicago sports has never really been filled.

    I think UConn faces similar risks. I've never perceived the UConn fanbase to be that big, or that extant at all outside New England. It seems most fans are happy they have UConn basketball to follow when the Red Sox/Yankees/Mets/Celtics/Giants/Patriots/Rangers/whoever are in their relative offseasons but can get by if they're not there. What has the school, or Calhoun, to perpetuate UConn basketball?
    Its widely accepted that Calhoun wants Ollie to succeed him. I honestly don't know too much about him. He's been on the coaching staff since 2010. I see no reason NOT to give him a shot, especially since as far as I can tell, he's an upstanding guy....what I've heard is that he is effectively being prepped by calhoun to be the head coach, though I don't know what that might entail.

    Anyway, what other coach would leave to go to uconn? Its a crappy location (seriously....storrs?) with a lot of problems currently.

    I've been largely concerned about what happens when calhoun leaves, but there is one thing there that I think will ultimately work in their favor: $$$. The program itself might not make ridiculous amounts (relative to Duke and UNC) but there big name donors in CT (some of whom cry and want their money back when it goes the wrong way). They're currently building a K-center-esque practice facility http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-bas...ctice-facility and ultimately its that sort of investment which will prevent them from going the ways of some of those other schools. Might there be a slump with the possible ban next year? yeah sure. Calhoun leaving will exacerbate that. But when you have a school that is as committed to succeeding at basketball as only a handful of other schools in the country, you're going to get recruits.
    usa

  4. #1464
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    I agree with this. Does Uconn stay in-family in the first place? What outsider would be a good fit? Billy Donovan? Shaka Smart?

    In addition to DePaul, other examples include Houston, Unlv and Notre Dame. Maybe Cincy post-Huggins. What these cases mostly had in common were a fanbase that didn't turn out to be all that large and/or devoted to basketball, the lack of membership in a major basketball conference (that would have provided teevee/recruiting exposure, natural rivalries, independent revenue streams etc) and a lack of "investment" from the school in perpetuating a strong basketball program. The latter means things like facilities, but also overall institutional giving-a-crapness. It's particularly a shame in DePaul's case, because it would have been relatively easy to build a new arena near campus around the time Ray Meyer was stepping down, and the void they left in Chicago sports has never really been filled.

    I think UConn faces similar risks. I've never perceived the UConn fanbase to be that big, or that extant at all outside New England. It seems most fans are happy they have UConn basketball to follow when the Red Sox/Yankees/Mets/Celtics/Giants/Patriots/Rangers/whoever are in their relative offseasons but can get by if they're not there. What has the school, or Calhoun, done to perpetuate UConn basketball?
    Does UConn WBB make money? I would guess it would.

    Donovan wouldn't be moving up to go from UF to UConn. He's going to the pros or staying put, I would guess. He can beat most of the SEC senseless most years, and has won two championships there. Why get into super-competitive BE basketball?

    I can't understand the appeal of UConn for the ACC in a post-Calhoun world. Their FB is pretty good for transitioning from I-AA so recently. I respect them, but at this point you sit tight, wait for the next plate tectonics to unfold, cross your fingers for Notre Dame, and tell Rutgers to talk to the hand. No reason to jump at this point. Without the 2003 expansion, the ACC would be vulnerable. Now that's it's absorbed half the all-sports Big East, it's not. So you can play a long game instead of a short one.

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  5. #1465
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    I asked about other investments UConn was making because I didn't know, so that's helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Its widely accepted that Calhoun wants Ollie to succeed him. I honestly don't know too much about him. He's been on the coaching staff since 2010. I see no reason NOT to give him a shot, especially since as far as I can tell, he's an upstanding guy....what I've heard is that he is effectively being prepped by calhoun to be the head coach, though I don't know what that might entail.
    Be careful, that's what DePaul did. More generally, Unlv and ND went with the "firmly established, older coach who probably doesn't have much more upside" route. I forget who Houston had after Guy Lewis, which is itself telling. This could be Maryland's future. The issue is, if you're trying to maintain a top-tier program, your choices are:

    1. Take a big risk on a young, impressive but mostly unproven guy (K, Thad Matta)
    2. Go after someone highly successful presuming you have the brand name and bucks to do so (Unc '03, Kentucky often over the last 30 years)
    3. Go up the middle with someone who's been around awhile with mild success (examples above; also, recycling guys like Jim Harrick and Mike Montgomery)
    4. Promote the next guy in line (Depaul '84, Unc after Deano)

    #3 and 4 don't seem to have a great track record. OK, Tom Izzo worked. Doesn't seem a lot less risky than options 1 or 2, though.

    What's the feeling on the academic/administration side at UConn? Do they want someone like Calhoun, who's willing to play with the rules in order to keep UConn's name out there, or do they want someone not like him?
    Between me and every ideal I always find Scheisskopfs, Peckems, Korns and Cathcarts. And that sort of changes the ideal. -- Joseph Heller

  6. #1466
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    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Donovan wouldn't be moving up to go from UF to UConn. He's going to the pros or staying put, I would guess. He can beat most of the SEC senseless most years, and has won two championships there. Why get into super-competitive BE basketball?
    Yeah, Florida basketball is a pretty good gig, and he almost made another Final Four last year. It was more a "what coach is most like a younger Calhoun" exercise.
    Between me and every ideal I always find Scheisskopfs, Peckems, Korns and Cathcarts. And that sort of changes the ideal. -- Joseph Heller

  7. #1467
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Without the 2003 expansion, the ACC would be vulnerable.
    Perhaps, but watching Virginia Tech women's basketball leaves me wondering if dissolution might have been the better option.

  8. #1468
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    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Does UConn WBB make money? I would guess it would.

    Donovan wouldn't be moving up to go from UF to UConn. He's going to the pros or staying put, I would guess. He can beat most of the SEC senseless most years, and has won two championships there. Why get into super-competitive BE basketball?

    I can't understand the appeal of UConn for the ACC in a post-Calhoun world. Their FB is pretty good for transitioning from I-AA so recently. I respect them, but at this point you sit tight, wait for the next plate tectonics to unfold, cross your fingers for Notre Dame, and tell Rutgers to talk to the hand. No reason to jump at this point. Without the 2003 expansion, the ACC would be vulnerable. Now that's it's absorbed half the all-sports Big East, it's not. So you can play a long game instead of a short one.
    Gainesville vs. Storrs in the winter, check. A state with one of the biggest high school recruiting bases vs. one with no tradition, check. School with some of the prettiest coeds vs., well? Check. The call from UConn to Billy Donovan is very short.

  9. #1469
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    What's the feeling on the academic/administration side at UConn? Do they want someone like Calhoun, who's willing to play with the rules in order to keep UConn's name out there, or do they want someone not like him?
    Highly unknown with a brand new AD as of monday(?) THe president of Uconn is a duke alumnus, and there have been seemingly substantial changes since she's been there. I think the school as a whole has been much more hands on in ensuring that the athletes are doing their diligence academically. I think that will likely be the status quo going forward: you can bring in who you like, but we're watching over your shoulder to make sure you're not going to run into issues academically....very much how K treats his athletes, but calhoun never cared enough about it....so the university has stepped in.....that's just my take.
    usa

  10. #1470
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    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Highly unknown with a brand new AD as of monday(?) THe president of Uconn is a duke alumnus, and there have been seemingly substantial changes since she's been there. I think the school as a whole has been much more hands on in ensuring that the athletes are doing their diligence academically. I think that will likely be the status quo going forward: you can bring in who you like, but we're watching over your shoulder to make sure you're not going to run into issues academically....very much how K treats his athletes, but calhoun never cared enough about it....so the university has stepped in.....that's just my take.
    That's one take. Another would be boosters got rid of an AD they didn't like for one they do.

    I hope you're right.

    -jk

  11. #1471
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    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    That's one take. Another would be boosters got rid of an AD they didn't like for one they do.

    I hope you're right.

    -jk
    I think it was mostly calhoun. And when calhoun made it clear it was hathaway or himself, the boosters sided with calhoun. Either way, as I mentioned Susan Herbst is a duke alumna, so one can hope for the best.
    usa

  12. #1472
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    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I think the school as a whole has been much more hands on in ensuring that the athletes are doing their diligence academically. I think that will likely be the status quo going forward: you can bring in who you like, but we're watching over your shoulder to make sure you're not going to run into issues academically....very much how K treats his athletes, but calhoun never cared enough about it....so the university has stepped in.....that's just my take.
    I would think that after getting dinged for academics and missing the 2013 Tourney, with the shame and recruiting/retention problems accompanying that tourney ban, UConn would be faaaar more diligent when it comes to ensuring athletes are progressing to graduation. I doubt they will find themselves down this path again any time soon as they know the "cure" is not medicine they want to EVER take again.

    In that regard, the NCAA's rule/penalty works pretty effectively, IMO.

    -Jason "it would be really effective in terms of PR if UConn was good, clearly tourney quality next year, though I think that may not be the case" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  13. #1473
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I would think that after getting dinged for academics and missing the 2013 Tourney, with the shame and recruiting/retention problems accompanying that tourney ban, UConn would be faaaar more diligent when it comes to ensuring athletes are progressing to graduation. I doubt they will find themselves down this path again any time soon as they know the "cure" is not medicine they want to EVER take again.

    In that regard, the NCAA's rule/penalty works pretty effectively, IMO.


    -Jason "it would be really effective in terms of PR if UConn was good, clearly tourney quality next year, though I think that may not be the case" Evans
    Except for the kids there currently who are getting screwed by the likes of jerome dyson and stanley robinson.....in terms of affecting the school, yeah.
    usa

  14. #1474
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    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Except for the kids there currently who are getting screwed by the likes of jerome dyson and stanley robinson.....in terms of affecting the school, yeah.
    True, but that is an impossible flaw to get past when your have dominion over institutions but not individuals. I doubt that any of the kids at USC today have even met Reggie Bush, and yet he is the guy keeping them out of a bowl game. There is no way for the NCAA to punish a player, so it has to punish the institution. It may seem unfair but doing nothing and allowing "cheaters" to get away with nothing by constantly saying "well, the kids who did it are not here any more," would not be fair to the many schools who follow the rules.

    However, I would take this one step further. The NCAA has always been very clear that it is the responsibility of the university/program to police its players/coaches for infractions and to ensure that the players are acting like "real students." It is convenient to blame a few players who failed to go to classes for something like this, but the blame really lies with UConn in not ensuring that these guys were a) capable of doing the school work and b) going to class and actually putting some effort into their classes. UConn is being punished not because Dyson and Robinson did something wrong, but because UConn did something wrong.

    And I would add one more thing about the current crop of UConn players who will feel the sting of this punishment next year. They went to UConn with their eyes open. UConn's historically poor graduation rate and its history of running right up to (and sometimes crossing) the line of NCAA rules were both well-known. A kid who goes there has to know he is taking some risk that the program will run into trouble with the NCAA and suffer some kind of penalty. I am not saying UConn is some evil, dark stain on college athletics, only that it is one of those programs that seems to operate in the gray ethical area much of the time (there are many other prominent programs like this-- Kentucky, USC, and others). I doubt many of us were surprised that UConn found itself under the NCAA's hammer.

    So, it may seem unfair, but I would feel a lot worse for kids at -- for example -- Michigan State, UNC, Duke, Notre Dame, Vandy, or Stanford if they found themselves in a position like this. Those programs have a rep for "doing it right" and are far less likely to be NCAA victims.

    --Jason "the above graph is one reason why I found the Penn St scandal so horrifying and am glad it appears the NCAA will not be taking action against the kids currently playing there" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  15. #1475
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    True, but that is an impossible flaw to get past when your have dominion over institutions but not individuals. I doubt that any of the kids at USC today have even met Reggie Bush, and yet he is the guy keeping them out of a bowl game. There is no way for the NCAA to punish a player, so it has to punish the institution. It may seem unfair but doing nothing and allowing "cheaters" to get away with nothing by constantly saying "well, the kids who did it are not here any more," would not be fair to the many schools who follow the rules.

    However, I would take this one step further. The NCAA has always been very clear that it is the responsibility of the university/program to police its players/coaches for infractions and to ensure that the players are acting like "real students." It is convenient to blame a few players who failed to go to classes for something like this, but the blame really lies with UConn in not ensuring that these guys were a) capable of doing the school work and b) going to class and actually putting some effort into their classes. UConn is being punished not because Dyson and Robinson did something wrong, but because UConn did something wrong.

    And I would add one more thing about the current crop of UConn players who will feel the sting of this punishment next year. They went to UConn with their eyes open. UConn's historically poor graduation rate and its history of running right up to (and sometimes crossing) the line of NCAA rules were both well-known. A kid who goes there has to know he is taking some risk that the program will run into trouble with the NCAA and suffer some kind of penalty. I am not saying UConn is some evil, dark stain on college athletics, only that it is one of those programs that seems to operate in the gray ethical area much of the time (there are many other prominent programs like this-- Kentucky, USC, and others). I doubt many of us were surprised that UConn found itself under the NCAA's hammer.

    So, it may seem unfair, but I would feel a lot worse for kids at -- for example -- Michigan State, UNC, Duke, Notre Dame, Vandy, or Stanford if they found themselves in a position like this. Those programs have a rep for "doing it right" and are far less likely to be NCAA victims.

    --Jason "the above graph is one reason why I found the Penn St scandal so horrifying and am glad it appears the NCAA will not be taking action against the kids currently playing there" Evans
    Keep in mind that the NCAA changed the rule last year and gave borderline schools no time to come into compliance with it. The players came knowing that uconn had low scores, but also knowing that the scores were high enough not to cause a ban. Then the NCAA changed it and the kids were locked in already. I am all for stringent academic requirements. I am absolutely against ex post facto rules. There's a reason they are unconstitutional for the government to pass.
    usa

  16. #1476
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    Looks like the Beast is feeding again. Reports of Temple joining in all sports.

    -jk

  17. #1477
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    Looks like the Beast is feeding again. Reports of Temple joining in all sports.

    -jk
    Just when you think you know the answers, the Big East changes the questions.

    By my count, this would mean that the Big East is set to have 16 teams playing basketball in 2012-2013, and 20(!) teams playing basketball in 2013-2014, unless Syracuse and Pittsburgh leave a year early, in which case there would only be 18 teams in Big East basketball. In football, there would be 8 teams playing football in 2012 and 14 teams playing football in 2013 - again, unless Syracuse and Pittsburgh leave a year early. No idea what they plan to do in 2015 when Navy becomes the 13th football-playing member.

  18. #1478
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    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Keep in mind that the NCAA changed the rule last year and gave borderline schools no time to come into compliance with it. The players came knowing that uconn had low scores, but also knowing that the scores were high enough not to cause a ban. Then the NCAA changed it and the kids were locked in already. I am all for stringent academic requirements. I am absolutely against ex post facto rules. There's a reason they are unconstitutional for the government to pass.
    For the government, not the NCAA. They aren't held to the same "lofty" standards to which we hold our politicians. Probably because they would not meet those standards.
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

  19. #1479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Just when you think you know the answers, the Big East changes the questions.

    By my count, this would mean that the Big East is set to have 16 teams playing basketball in 2012-2013, and 20(!) teams playing basketball in 2013-2014, unless Syracuse and Pittsburgh leave a year early, in which case there would only be 18 teams in Big East basketball. In football, there would be 8 teams playing football in 2012 and 14 teams playing football in 2013 - again, unless Syracuse and Pittsburgh leave a year early. No idea what they plan to do in 2015 when Navy becomes the 13th football-playing member.
    I'd say there is a 99.9% probability that Syracuse and Pitt will be in the ACC by Fall 2013. Also a very high likelihood that Louisville will be in the B12ish by then.

  20. #1480

    "Seriously?"

    The DBR Homepage links to this article and hones in on this quote: Im very foolish. I assumed and it was a rash assumption on my part that our friends over in the state capital would want to continue playing us. It turns out they didnt think we were as much of a rival as we thought of them.

    DBR then questions: [D]o we understand correctly here? Did he expect the Texas legislature to force Texas to continue to play A&M? And was that part of his decision making?

    The answer, I think, is clearly no. It says "capital," not "Capitol," and the state capital of Texas is Austin. So he was saying "our friends over in Austin"...meaning the University of Texas. Even if the words were switched to refer to Texas A&M's people in the legislature, the context provided by the rest of the sentence wouldn't make sense. It would have to read "our friends over in the state Capitol would have them continue playing us" or "our friends in the state Capitol would make them continue playing us" or something like that.

    Anyway, I think the assumption may have been optimistic in hindsight, but I don't necessarily think it's "rash" or "foolish" to think that rivalries may be preserved across leagues. For example, Louisville and Kentucky are fierce rivals despite playing in different leagues. There might be scheduling challenges in football because there are fewer nonconference scheduling opportunities, but it's still doable. USC schedules Notre Dame every year. Florida and Florida State face off annually. There's nothing really stopping UT from playing Texas A&M regularly, other than spite. Now, perhaps it's foolish to think UT wouldn't act spitefully in deciding not to play A&M as some sort of punishment for leaving. But if the fans/boosters clamor for it enough, then they can always start putting each other on the schedule...perhaps when cooler heads prevail a few years down the road.

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