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  1. #1501
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    Feb 2007
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by Class of '94 View Post

    So much for a quiet summer. The irony in all of this was that unhappiness in the Big 12 is what triggered all of this movement to begin with and now it looks like they're trying to be proactive in securing their future. I could see those reported schools researching the possibility as part of their due diligence in financial options for the AD department; but I just don't think the numbers will work out. That being said, maybe this potential new round of movement may finally scare ND to join the ACC if Louisville and a non-ACC school (hopefully) joins the Big 12.
    This is admittedly heavily biased, but I do believe that DeLoss Dodds and Frank Castiglione (despite his boss' machinations last fall), along with Notre Dame, to an extent, and possibly others, have an end game in mind that is much further out than all the reactive movement that has happened in the last 12 months (I don't consider the Big 10 and Pac 12 expansions reactive). Dodds' comments a couple of weeks ago basically calling out the Rose Bowl alliance as preventing the playoff everyone wants were very calculated, and are a large part of what has accelerated the current "plus one" talk because it made the Big Ten and Pac Ten react:

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLoss Dodds
    The only way it’s going to get fixed is for the rest of the country to have a playoff of some kind and let them do their deal. And then after five years, their coaches would go berserk because they're not in the mix for a national championship. And they'd have to join it.
    Some of the current "plus ones" being discussed are very intriguing, especially the one that the commissioners basically plagiarized from Stuart Mandel.

    (Edited -- I don't know how to remove the "Originally Posted By" on the Dodds quote, but we'll just pretend he posted here).

  2. #1502
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    Apr 2010
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    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    So there's exactly no overlap between the ECAC lacrosse membership and the ECAC hockey membership? Weird.
    True. The ECAC seems to be kind of a backup conference for teams whose other leagues don't offer league competition in some sports--there are actually over 300 members from all three NCAA divisions, involved in various sports, including Duke (saw this on their website, don't know what sport Duke is involved in, but it might be fencing).

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Agree with all of this other than Cincy to the Big XII. That would be a desperation move for the Big XII similar to the moves that the Big East is making now.

    I am just catching up on all of this scuttlebutt today (apparently it's been out there for a while, but has gained steam at the Big XII meetings), but read up on some rumors that are coming out of the Big XII meetings that there is unanimous approval to go to allow the new commissioner to bring in to more "pre-approved" teams. Teams I see rumored in play for this are Lousiville, Miami (not Maryland), FSU and Clemson. The ADs met with at least one representative that sits on the Athletic Advisory Committee from a school not in the Big XII at some point yesterday as well via conference call. That obviously could be anything.

    One tangential, but not unrelated question: Is Lacrosse a revenue generating sport for the ACC schools yet?
    I can't find any figures (the most recent thing I found was a 2009 figure that said D1 lax teams lost an average of around $600,000 per year), but I doubt it. Live attendance is picking up gradually, but there are only so many tickets you can sell, at fairly low prices, for regular season games, and even the Final Four tickets are pretty modestly priced for events held in NFL stadiums. Only a limited number of non-tournament games get on TV (mostly on ESPNU), although many do feature ACC schools.

  3. #1503
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    Feb 2007
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    True. The ECAC seems to be kind of a backup conference for teams whose other leagues don't offer league competition in some sports--there are actually over 300 members from all three NCAA divisions, involved in various sports, including Duke (saw this on their website, don't know what sport Duke is involved in, but it might be fencing).



    I can't find any figures (the most recent thing I found was a 2009 figure that said D1 lax teams lost an average of around $600,000 per year), but I doubt it. Live attendance is picking up gradually, but there are only so many tickets you can sell, at fairly low prices, for regular season games, and even the Final Four tickets are pretty modestly priced for events held in NFL stadiums. Only a limited number of non-tournament games get on TV (mostly on ESPNU), although many do feature ACC schools.
    Thanks. The reason I was curious is that although football drives the bus, if other non-football/basketball sports are making money, some consideration has to be given to them. For instance, one of the HUGE drawbacks for UT to the Big Ten was how it would affect baseball, which I believe is actually a revenue sport in Austin (could be wrong, but it is definitely close). One would think a school like Maryland would not want to ditch its lacrosse niche if it was generating any sort of positive revenue.

    I do think the Athletic Directors (although *NOT* the boards of trustees/regents/jesters) truly worry about the non-revenue sports. It's their job. If you really want to dig into the whole A&M/SEC history, A&M's athletic director did not want to go, but he was effectively neutered by the board of regents.

  4. #1504
    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Thanks. The reason I was curious is that although football drives the bus, if other non-football/basketball sports are making money, some consideration has to be given to them. For instance, one of the HUGE drawbacks for UT to the Big Ten was how it would affect baseball, which I believe is actually a revenue sport in Austin (could be wrong, but it is definitely close). One would think a school like Maryland would not want to ditch its lacrosse niche if it was generating any sort of positive revenue.

    I do think the Athletic Directors (although *NOT* the boards of trustees/regents/jesters) truly worry about the non-revenue sports. It's their job. If you really want to dig into the whole A&M/SEC history, A&M's athletic director did not want to go, but he was effectively neutered by the board of regents.
    Got it.......But if it's MIami instead of MD, the effect of moving to Big 12 on Lacrosse wouldn't be a factor. That said, the non-revenue teams of these schools would suffer with a move to play a majority of teams that are different time zones based on travel expenses. I think if the new proposals for the playoff format in football emphasized "conference champions" being eligible for the 4 team playoff, then that would put a lot of pressure on ND to join a conference. With MW and CUSA merging and have a conference championship game, it appears that down the road it might be heading to that.

  5. #1505
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    Feb 2007
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    Tampa
    Quote Originally Posted by Class of '94 View Post
    Got it.......But if it's MIami instead of MD, the effect of moving to Big 12 on Lacrosse wouldn't be a factor. That said, the non-revenue teams of these schools would suffer with a move to play a majority of teams that are different time zones based on travel expenses. I think if the new proposals for the playoff format in football emphasized "conference champions" being eligible for the 4 team playoff, then that would put a lot of pressure on ND to join a conference. With MW and CUSA merging and have a conference championship game, it appears that down the road it might be heading to that.

    I thought the MW and C-USA merger was taken off the table a couple of months ago?
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  6. #1506
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    Aug 2009
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    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by msdukie View Post
    I thought the MW and C-USA merger was taken off the table a couple of months ago?
    Yep, here's the new plan for CUSA:

    http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoot...urphy/18923863

  7. #1507
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    Feb 2008
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    Wilmington
    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    The first step is taken.. UNC C to Conference USA
    http://www.charlotte49ers.com/ViewAr...CLID=205423610

    Will ODU have a press confernece today as well ?

    Is the CAA, "DEAD MAN WALKING" ?
    IF ODU is gone, VCU and George Mason have to be giving the A-10 a HARD look ( Yes , these two are simi recent final four teams, the A 10 has none ).
    James Madison ,of the CAA, is talking about the MAC.
    App St and Ga Southern might be Sun Belt soon.
    Will the SoCon push hard to replace App State with W&M of the CAA and Richmond for football / UNCW of the CAA for other sports.
    If the CAA isn't dead, it's close It's traditional Va/midAtlantic core ( Madison, Mason, VCU, ODU UNCW ) would be completely wiped out - and instead become a northeastern conference like the old American East maybe ?

  8. #1508
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    Feb 2007
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    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
    The first step is taken.. UNC C to Conference USA
    http://www.charlotte49ers.com/ViewAr...CLID=205423610

    Will ODU have a press confernece today as well ?

    Is the CAA, "DEAD MAN WALKING" ?
    IF ODU is gone, VCU and George Mason have to be giving the A-10 a HARD look ( Yes , these two are simi recent final four teams, the A 10 has none ).
    James Madison ,of the CAA, is talking about the MAC.
    App St and Ga Southern might be Sun Belt soon.
    Will the SoCon push hard to replace App State with W&M of the CAA and Richmond for football / UNCW of the CAA for other sports.
    If the CAA isn't dead, it's close It's traditional Va/midAtlantic core ( Madison, Mason, VCU, ODU UNCW ) would be completely wiped out - and instead become a northeastern conference like the old American East maybe ?
    But the Atlantic Thirteen or So does now have Butler, 2010 and 2011 national runner-up.

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    ---Over the Rhine

  9. #1509
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    True. The ECAC seems to be kind of a backup conference for teams whose other leagues don't offer league competition in some sports--there are actually over 300 members from all three NCAA divisions, involved in various sports, including Duke (saw this on their website, don't know what sport Duke is involved in, but it might be fencing).

    Duke men's and women's cross-country and track and field compete in the ECAC/IC4A (for some reason the men's championships are called IC4A). This basically consists of competition in a championship event after the ACC championships.

  10. #1510

    Rumors

    Please, don't get carried away by internet rumors ...

    For instance, there is ZERO chance that the ACC loses a team to the Big 12.

    If the SEC came calling -- which is very unlikely -- there are a couple of ACC schools that would be interested. If the Big 10 came after Maryland (as many Terps dream), that financially strapped school would be very interested.

    In both cases, it would make financial sense to make the jump to a more lucrative league. But the Big 12 is at almost the same financial level as the ACC -- it's worse actually, because revenues in that conference aren't split evenly (Texas in a monster with a far larger income than anybody else). Teams are looking to get OUT of the Big 12 (as Texas A&M and Missouri did) and not get in.

    The ACC's next expansion depends entirely on Notre Dame. I suspect (but don't know) that the Big 10 is in the same situation. Until and unless the Irish make up theiy mind, the ACC will wait at 14. If Notre Dame comes, then they'll add one more Big East school to the mix (I'm guessing -- and that's all it is -- UConn or Rutgers). If Notre Dame chooses the Big 10, then the ACC will take two new teams, almost certainly from the Big East. If Notre Dame decides to stay an independent, then the ACC will stay at 14 for the forseeable future (there's no real advantage to going from 14 to 16 unless the new teams add real value).

    And a couple of final points -- every summer, people post about the ACC going after Penn State. Ain't going to happen -- no team is going to leave the Big 10 for the ACC.

    And somebody always suggests that the ACC should take Notre Dame as a non-football playing member. Again, that ain't going to happen. The ACC is absolutely committed to being an all=-sports conference. Besides, the best model we have for a major conference NOT being an all-sports conference is the disfunctional (and financially unrewarding) Big East. The ACC ain't copying their model.

  11. #1511
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    Duke men's and women's cross-country and track and field compete in the ECAC/IC4A (for some reason the men's championships are called IC4A). This basically consists of competition in a championship event after the ACC championships.
    Thanks for the update/clarification. I can see how, in the running sports, having a different level of competition beyond the league, but not the NCAA championships, might be a really useful thing for the athletes.

  12. #1512
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    Feb 2007
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    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Please, don't get carried away by internet rumors ...

    ... The ACC is absolutely committed to being an all=-sports conference. ...
    Except for LAX

  13. #1513
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Please, don't get carried away by internet rumors ...

    For instance, there is ZERO chance that the ACC loses a team to the Big 12.

    If the SEC came calling -- which is very unlikely -- there are a couple of ACC schools that would be interested. If the Big 10 came after Maryland (as many Terps dream), that financially strapped school would be very interested.

    In both cases, it would make financial sense to make the jump to a more lucrative league. But the Big 12 is at almost the same financial level as the ACC -- it's worse actually, because revenues in that conference aren't split evenly (Texas in a monster with a far larger income than anybody else). Teams are looking to get OUT of the Big 12 (as Texas A&M and Missouri did) and not get in.
    I am certainly taking these rumors with the same grain of salt I did the A&M to SEC rumors a month before the football season started and the VaTech to SEC rumors that happened shortly after that. The internets bat about 0.100 on these rumors, so I hear you.

    But the new playoff system that is being bandied about, where the participants will earn more money for their conferences, is a real problem for the ACC. If you look back at the BCS era/error, if the systems currently being discussed were in place, the ACC would have placed exactly 4 teams in the Plus One playoff (not counting pre-expansion Miami and VaTech). 3 of those were FSU in the first 3 years. Now, the logic of FSU and Clemson leaving for these reasons is short-sighted, no doubt. But a similar stretch of the ACC not placing anyone in the new Plus-One system is going to be problematic for the conference.

    I don't know about Clemson, but FSU's finances are shockingly in dire straits, much like A&M's were, relying on donations to run day to day operations. If Florida St. thinks it can borrow against the future by joining a more successful football conference, betting on more money in the long run, along with the freedom to develop their own third tier media, I get their logic. I think it is flawed and short-sighted, but it wouldn't be dissimilar to A&M's reasoning last summer.

    So, I doubt any of this happens. I do think the next domino to fall is Louisville to the Big XII (gag) and Notre Dame deciding where to park its non-football sports. But if traditional football powers in the ACC get spooked by the new playoff system, I would not be shocked at all to see some movement out of that.

  14. #1514
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Except for LAX
    There are ACC schools that play lacrosse without participating in the ACC lacrosse conference?

  15. #1515
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Inman, SC & Melbourne Beach, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Please, don't get carried away by internet rumors ...

    For instance, there is ZERO chance that the ACC loses a team to the Big 12.

    If the SEC came calling -- which is very unlikely -- there are a couple of ACC schools that would be interested. If the Big 10 came after Maryland (as many Terps dream), that financially strapped school would be very interested.

    In both cases, it would make financial sense to make the jump to a more lucrative league. But the Big 12 is at almost the same financial level as the ACC -- it's worse actually, because revenues in that conference aren't split evenly (Texas in a monster with a far larger income than anybody else). Teams are looking to get OUT of the Big 12 (as Texas A&M and Missouri did) and not get in.

    The ACC's next expansion depends entirely on Notre Dame. I suspect (but don't know) that the Big 10 is in the same situation. Until and unless the Irish make up theiy mind, the ACC will wait at 14. If Notre Dame comes, then they'll add one more Big East school to the mix (I'm guessing -- and that's all it is -- UConn or Rutgers). If Notre Dame chooses the Big 10, then the ACC will take two new teams, almost certainly from the Big East. If Notre Dame decides to stay an independent, then the ACC will stay at 14 for the forseeable future (there's no real advantage to going from 14 to 16 unless the new teams add real value).

    And a couple of final points -- every summer, people post about the ACC going after Penn State. Ain't going to happen -- no team is going to leave the Big 10 for the ACC.

    And somebody always suggests that the ACC should take Notre Dame as a non-football playing member. Again, that ain't going to happen. The ACC is absolutely committed to being an all=-sports conference. Besides, the best model we have for a major conference NOT being an all-sports conference is the disfunctional (and financially unrewarding) Big East. The ACC ain't copying their model.
    So, I guess there is not a very big chance that the ACC will kick some schools out. Too bad.

  16. #1516
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    In both cases, it would make financial sense to make the jump to a more lucrative league. But the Big 12 is at almost the same financial level as the ACC -- it's worse actually, because revenues in that conference aren't split evenly (Texas in a monster with a far larger income than anybody else). Teams are looking to get OUT of the Big 12 (as Texas A&M and Missouri did) and not get in.
    My math may be off, considering someone else did it, but the rough numbers from the last 10 years of the BCS era:
    Big12: $250 million
    ACC: $210 million

    That's a difference of $4 million per year, which is chump change in the realignment conversation (but maybe not for FSU, especially as they try to keep pace with Florida.)

    Here are the last 10 years, if you apply the playoff math backwards:
    Big12: $375 million
    ACC: $125 million

    When the ACC made their move, they added two basketball schools (with decent football tradition), but won't get into any BCS/playoff games anytime soon. If you are FSU, you have to at least listen, right?

    Also, fwiw, Louisville to the Big12 will not be the next domino. They have been begging for months, so the Big12 knows they can grab them at anytime. They just know that there might be bigger fish out there (FSU? Clemson? BYU? Notre Dame?)

  17. #1517
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    In both cases, it would make financial sense to make the jump to a more lucrative league. But the Big 12 is at almost the same financial level as the ACC -- it's worse actually, because revenues in that conference aren't split evenly (Texas in a monster with a far larger income than anybody else). Teams are looking to get OUT of the Big 12 (as Texas A&M and Missouri did) and not get in.
    Actually, from the latest publicly available report, Kansas has the largest income from Tier 3 rights in the Big12, and it isn't really close. (The LHN may dwarf that someday, but I doubt so today.)


    As far as no schools looking to get into the Big12, you might want to tell Louisville and Cincinnati, and there are varying reports that BYU was almost a done deal.

  18. #1518
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    Sep 2008
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    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    As far as no schools looking to get into the Big12, you might want to tell Louisville and Cincinnati, and there are varying reports that BYU was almost a done deal.
    He said ACC schools. These days, Big East football-playing schools seem to be looking for anyone who'll take them.

  19. #1519
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    Mar 2012
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    Kansas
    Yes the CUSA MWC merger is on pause because CUSA wants the almost 25 million in exit fees from UCF, USF, SMU, and Houston. Then again I dont think it will happen at all as when the Big East becomes an epic fail those 4 teams plus Temple will probably be coming back to CUSA. CUSA is looking to go to 18-20 team conference. Those 5 plus the current 13 make 18. I could see Georgia State and MTSU added in same time frame to make 20. I could see ODU and/or possible App State in all this with UTEP and possibly another Texas team going to the Mountain west. I really dont see the need for a 36 team conference so the merger may not happen after all this happens.

    I definitely see where all is is waiting on ND. Louisville is begging to get into the Big 12. My Pirates are begging to get in anywhere. I wish the Big 10/11/12 would add Maryland. Get those garbage fans out of the ACC. The fans from WV kept them out of the SEC. The ACC needs to also get rid of BC. They were a good add when they had Matt Ryan and a decent BBall team. Now they bring nothing to the conference.

  20. #1520
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NW Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by gocanes0506 View Post
    Yes the CUSA MWC merger is on pause because CUSA wants the almost 25 million in exit fees from UCF, USF, SMU, and Houston. Then again I dont think it will happen at all as when the Big East becomes an epic fail those 4 teams plus Temple will probably be coming back to CUSA. CUSA is looking to go to 18-20 team conference. Those 5 plus the current 13 make 18. I could see Georgia State and MTSU added in same time frame to make 20. I could see ODU and/or possible App State in all this with UTEP and possibly another Texas team going to the Mountain west. I really dont see the need for a 36 team conference so the merger may not happen after all this happens.

    I definitely see where all is is waiting on ND. Louisville is begging to get into the Big 12. My Pirates are begging to get in anywhere. I wish the Big 10/11/12 would add Maryland. Get those garbage fans out of the ACC. The fans from WV kept them out of the SEC. The ACC needs to also get rid of BC. They were a good add when they had Matt Ryan and a decent BBall team. Now they bring nothing to the conference.
    ECU AD Terry Holland was on the David Glenn show on 99TheFan this afternoon. I'm sure ACC Sports Journal will link to the audio file later tonight. Holland said the biggest reason not to merge the MWC and CUSA was that it would take them from two automatic bids to things like the NCAA MBB Tourney (one from each conference) down to just one (for the merged conference), which would have been unwise to say the least. An Alliance would not have that effect. Also, he stated that a merger of just football was now unlikely with the new BCS 4-team "playoff" getting rid of automatic qualifiers. Getting an AQ was the only reason to merge.

    If the ACC dumped BC and MD, they would never get ND.
    -BuschDevil

    "...Man, who even now finds scarce breathing room on this vast globe, cannot retire from the Old World to some yet undiscovered continent, and wait for the slow action of such causes to replace, by a new creation, the Eden he has wasted".
    -George Perkins Marsh (1864)

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