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  1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    The BE is so ridiculous that I now feel that the ACC should take UConn and Rutgers out of pity. I know that, financially speaking, the ACC should wait until it is time to renegotiate the next TV contract, but really, they don't deserve this.
    I agree with you in that they should just go ahead and take Uconn; but I'd still hold out hope for ND....

  2. #1442
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    I don't understand how the Big East teams think they can somehow replicate the enthusiasm for college football that is endemic in the deep south, southwest, and midwest. The ACC and Pacific Coast fan bases may not have the same ardor, but they can at least approximate it. To go dredging for solid athletic programs around the country is not just absurd, it's doomed.

    Also, btw, if we're going to add two, I'm in favor of one of them being Rutgers, though not because I think that northern NJ will suddenly become Columbus, Norman, or Tuscaloosa, but because then I'd get to go to some games and, secondarily, Duke might get a bit of a bump in the NY media. Plus, I think Rutgers is academically on the way up. But not UConn. I don't like U Conn, as in I like U Conn less than I like Carolina, and I just don't see what they bring to the table aside from a women's basketball team that trounces us almost every time we play. If we don't get Notre Dame, I'd say delay taking anybody.

  3. #1443
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Unintended Effects?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    I don't understand how the Big East teams think they can somehow replicate the enthusiasm for college football that is endemic in the deep south, southwest, and midwest. The ACC and Pacific Coast fan bases may not have the same ardor, but they can at least approximate it. To go dredging for solid athletic programs around the country is not just absurd, it's doomed.

    Also, btw, if we're going to add two, I'm in favor of one of them being Rutgers, though not because I think that northern NJ will suddenly become Columbus, Norman, or Tuscaloosa, but because then I'd get to go to some games and, secondarily, Duke might get a bit of a bump in the NY media. Plus, I think Rutgers is academically on the way up. But not UConn. I don't like U Conn, as in I like U Conn less than I like Carolina, and I just don't see what they bring to the table aside from a women's basketball team that trounces us almost every time we play. If we don't get Notre Dame, I'd say delay taking anybody.
    Johnb, I don't want to disagree with the excellent points you made. Surely the Big East's courting of members all over the country has a frantic quality.

    At the same time, it expands the BCS in a salutary way. The teams added probably should be in the BCS equation. What's the count of new BCS teams due to the intercession of the Big East? Maybe six or more? TCU (indirectly), SMU, San Diego St., Boise St., Central Fla., Houston (Cougar High to those of us who went to Rice for graduate work), and Navy. Works for me.

    Moreover, the likely marriage of Conf-USA and Mt. West is likely with a mind to petitioning for inclusion in the BCS.

    sagegrouse

  4. #1444
    Big East kills the Mountain West and Conference USA. Where's the outrage?

    The institutions from Conference USA and the Mountain West are dissolving both leagues to create their own conference, college football industry sources told CBSSports.com.

    The new conference will start in the 2013-14 academic year. Conference USA and the Mountain West would continue as is for the 2012-13 season.

  5. #1445

    How freaking stupid can you be!!!

    "This is an exciting development that will stabilize the current conferences and create the first truly national conference with members in five time zones and television viewership from coast to coast,"

    The structure of the new conference, Smatresk and Cowen's statement said will have a "national scope from the Atlantic Seaboard to Hawaii

    How freaking stupid can you be!!!

  6. #1446
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sterling, VA
    Everyone looking for incremental improvements for themselves has resulted in everybody worse off, IMO. Classic game theory outcome.

    Now we're left with a consolidation into super-conferences, and 2nd-tier ones that stretch from the Atlantic to Hawaii. (?!)

    Regional rivalries - gone. Travel time and it's negative impact on players - way up. Ability for fans to travel to games - way down.


    I know we're not there yet, but let's say we ended up with 4 x 16-team conferences. Is there really more aggregate money to be made there than in 8 x 8-team conferences? Enough to offset all the other downsides? Is non-regional consolidation really the best way to achieve the optimal amount of money across the board?



    As a side note - wasn't 12 teams an NCAA requirement to have a conference championship game, and didn't that drive a lot of this several years back? If it was a condition - why? Seems artificial and unnecessarily forcing expansion.

  7. #1447
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    Everyone looking for incremental improvements for themselves has resulted in everybody worse off, IMO. Classic game theory outcome.

    Now we're left with a consolidation into super-conferences, and 2nd-tier ones that stretch from the Atlantic to Hawaii. (?!)

    Regional rivalries - gone. Travel time and it's negative impact on players - way up. Ability for fans to travel to games - way down.


    I know we're not there yet, but let's say we ended up with 4 x 16-team conferences. Is there really more aggregate money to be made there than in 8 x 8-team conferences? Enough to offset all the other downsides? Is non-regional consolidation really the best way to achieve the optimal amount of money across the board?



    As a side note - wasn't 12 teams an NCAA requirement to have a conference championship game, and didn't that drive a lot of this several years back? If it was a condition - why? Seems artificial and unnecessarily forcing expansion.
    Yes. the chasm of appeal widens between the haves and the have nots....and thus a higher percentage of the total money ends up with those 64 teams than did before. Now, whether college football as a WHOLE will make more money...who knows....but the 64 will make more.
    usa

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    As a side note - wasn't 12 teams an NCAA requirement to have a conference championship game, and didn't that drive a lot of this several years back? If it was a condition - why? Seems artificial and unnecessarily forcing expansion.
    Yes. Should have said the requirement was to have 8 teams and 8 teams only. Not 6, not 7, not 9, not 10...only 8!

  9. #1449
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern VA
    In addition to the CBS story linked on the front of DBR, I saw this Washington Post piece quoting the Big East Comissioner as stating that he is "open" to discussing Pitt and Syracuse leaving the Big East in the Summer of 2013.

    Now it's all about price.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...gDR_story.html

    What do you think, is it worth it to the ACC to get em in a year earlier? The guessing seems to be $10M apiece for one year. What if the BE holds to a higher number?

    Short of a threat from outside, to steal a present ACC member or two - not something that I think is currently the case - I don't see any need to move quickly to 16 teams (i.e. grab Rutgers and UCONN). Last year, someone on here posted a survey of NYC-area TV viewers and their "college allegiances." IIRC, ND and then PSU were the top two, then Rutgers...with UCONN several percentage points below them (but still higher than Syracuse). So, to answer the Q, if you are desperate to capture the NYC TV market, or if you want to grab them before someone else does (earlier rumors on the Big Ten looking eastward)... then you grab Rutgers and UCONN. But for now, I like the ACC "keeping a line in the water" to see if ND or PSU nibble. Both might be called long-shots, but worth it nonetheless...
    -BDBD

  10. #1450
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    In addition to the CBS story linked on the front of DBR, I saw this Washington Post piece quoting the Big East Comissioner as stating that he is "open" to discussing Pitt and Syracuse leaving the Big East in the Summer of 2013.

    Now it's all about price.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...gDR_story.html

    What do you think, is it worth it to the ACC to get em in a year earlier? The guessing seems to be $10M apiece for one year. What if the BE holds to a higher number?

    Short of a threat from outside, to steal a present ACC member or two - not something that I think is currently the case - I don't see any need to move quickly to 16 teams (i.e. grab Rutgers and UCONN). Last year, someone on here posted a survey of NYC-area TV viewers and their "college allegiances." IIRC, ND and then PSU were the top two, then Rutgers...with UCONN several percentage points below them (but still higher than Syracuse). So, to answer the Q, if you are desperate to capture the NYC TV market, or if you want to grab them before someone else does (earlier rumors on the Big Ten looking eastward)... then you grab Rutgers and UCONN. But for now, I like the ACC "keeping a line in the water" to see if ND or PSU nibble. Both might be called long-shots, but worth it nonetheless...
    I completely agree with this strategy and hope it is the one that the ACC has in mind. No sense in rushing now, especially since I think ND is eventually going to have to decide between the Big 10 and the ACC and my guess is that Penn State would follow ND to the ACC if that was their decision. (Back when I was a kid growing up in PA, Penn State's rivals were Pitt and ND...if both of them were ACC schools, I think the alumni would view a move to the ACC as rather appealing.)

  11. #1451
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    In addition to the CBS story linked on the front of DBR, I saw this Washington Post piece quoting the Big East Comissioner as stating that he is "open" to discussing Pitt and Syracuse leaving the Big East in the Summer of 2013.

    Now it's all about price.
    When wasn't it?

    Cuse and Pitt just want to play the good guys and not have to go to court.

    More analytically, if I'm running the endowment at either place I would point out $10m will fund about 15-20 undergrads and maybe 10 revenue-sport athletes. That's in perpetuity; you still have the $10m. Now you may make more money as part of the ACC, but it won't cover the difference. I'm rather surprised WVU coughed up that much to forego one year of being the big fish in the shrinking pond that is Big East football.
    Sometimes I mistake this for a universe that cares. -- xkcd #625

  12. #1452
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    It may be $10 million total, i.e. the $5 million exit fee they have to pay regardless, plus another $5 million for leaving early.

  13. #1453
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    It may be $10 million total, i.e. the $5 million exit fee they have to pay regardless, plus another $5 million for leaving early.
    That occurred to me, but looking at it that way it's one-third the additional amount WVU is paying to wait a year, $5 extra vs. $15 extra.

    Also, I wonder whether Cuse and Pitt would get part of the $20 that WVU is paying, or would if they wait until 2014. That moves the needle too.
    Sometimes I mistake this for a universe that cares. -- xkcd #625

  14. #1454
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    So, let me get this straight - thanks pretty much to the greed for tv money of big-time ADs, the BCS system, the NCAA and ESPN and ABC, the fans of their respective schools will now never get to see Oklahoma playing Nebraska, Missouri playing Kansas, Texas playing Texas A&M, Pitt playing Penn State, half the teams in the SEC will virtually never see each other again, and will Utah and BYU play each other anymore? In basketball there will also soon no longer be Syracuse vs. St. John's or Georgetown, and UNC and State will only play once a year. On the other hand, we will now be seeing that storied and heated rivalry between East Carolina and Fresno State, and who hasn't been panting for that one? (and what are the travel expenses between Greenville, NC and Hawaii?). Wise moves indeed, I think.

  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Faustus View Post
    So, let me get this straight - thanks pretty much to the greed for tv money of big-time ADs, the BCS system, the NCAA and ESPN and ABC, the fans of their respective schools will now never get to see Oklahoma playing Nebraska, Missouri playing Kansas, Texas playing Texas A&M, Pitt playing Penn State, half the teams in the SEC will virtually never see each other again, and will Utah and BYU play each other anymore? In basketball there will also soon no longer be Syracuse vs. St. John's or Georgetown, and UNC and State will only play once a year. On the other hand, we will now be seeing that storied and heated rivalry between East Carolina and Fresno State, and who hasn't been panting for that one? (and what are the travel expenses between Greenville, NC and Hawaii?). Wise moves indeed, I think.
    The NCAA?

  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    As a side note - wasn't 12 teams an NCAA requirement to have a conference championship game, and didn't that drive a lot of this several years back? If it was a condition - why? Seems artificial and unnecessarily forcing expansion.
    Ding, Ding.

    I think that but for this odd loophole, there wouldn't have been anything like the ridiculous expansion that is happening and essentially destroying the heart of all of the conferences with the possible exception of the SEC and Big 10, which are really the only two leagues strong enough to withstand the dilution of key traditional rivalries.

  17. #1457
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    That occurred to me, but looking at it that way it's one-third the additional amount WVU is paying to wait a year, $5 extra vs. $15 extra.

    Also, I wonder whether Cuse and Pitt would get part of the $20 that WVU is paying, or would if they wait until 2014. That moves the needle too.
    The more significant factor is that the BE already has replacements lined up for 2013, so bringing in new teams AND keeping Syracuse and Pitt makes little sense for anyone. OTOH, FSU and all the BE teams are scrounging to fill the WVU void on their schedule for 2012. FSU may start playing Syracuse or Pitt next year.

  18. #1458
    WVU's exit deal looks pretty sweet to WVU

    http://www.dailymail.com/Sports/201202140130
    ~rthomas


  19. #1459
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Charlottesville, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    The NCAA?
    Yes. I'm clearly no expert in this, and the old Southwest Conference had already dissolved beforehand (UT just isn't easy to live with, it seems), but as I understand it, it was when the NCAA first announced that if a conference had 12 members, they could then have 2 divisions and a championship football game above and beyond the allowed 12 game season, plus, of course, all the tv money Disney/ABC/ESPN and CBS could bestow upon the ADs coffers for that game, that the traditional conferences began to fall apart. It became a goldmine for the SEC, then the Big 12 followed suit, and then suddenly all the other conferences realized they needed 12 teams too to cash in, thus the poaching from each other that ensued. None of this had anything whatsoever to do with basketball or the other sports, of course, but for football and the TV rights that came from it. (So important is this for ESPN that in the recent renewal of their contract with the SEC they had to promise far more SEC bball games on air - if you wonder why we're on ESPNU a lot more and on ESPN and ESPN2 less, and why this year Bama and South Carolina and Miss State are on a lot more.) And from there sprang the new philosophy that it was no longer time-honored local rivalries that counted, but on the contrary, how far your conference's tv "footprint" spread, the bigger it was supposedly the more money you got, even though the schools you are playing now have no connection or interest to the old-line fans. Do Big10 schools care about Nebraska? Of course not, except maybe Iowa. But they needed a twelfth to reach the feeding trough, so there you have it. Here come the Huskers to play bball at... Penn State.

    So the NCAA is not the only culprit - this BCS bunch that has fostered the BigEast banditry in desperately grasping for any schools that will keep them with enough members to stay in the ring of money is the problem there, and behind all of this are all the ADs and college presidents who have willingly played along. But the real derailing in my opinion of the long-standing traditional and regional conferences began when the NCAA's 12 team/conference football championship rule was brought to light.

  20. #1460
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tampa
    Quote Originally Posted by Faustus View Post
    Yes. I'm clearly no expert in this, and the old Southwest Conference had already dissolved beforehand (UT just isn't easy to live with, it seems), but as I understand it, it was when the NCAA first announced that if a conference had 12 members, they could then have 2 divisions and a championship football game above and beyond the allowed 12 game season, plus, of course, all the tv money Disney/ABC/ESPN and CBS could bestow upon the ADs coffers for that game, that the traditional conferences began to fall apart. It became a goldmine for the SEC, then the Big 12 followed suit, and then suddenly all the other conferences realized they needed 12 teams too to cash in, thus the poaching from each other that ensued. None of this had anything whatsoever to do with basketball or the other sports, of course, but for football and the TV rights that came from it. (So important is this for ESPN that in the recent renewal of their contract with the SEC they had to promise far more SEC bball games on air - if you wonder why we're on ESPNU a lot more and on ESPN and ESPN2 less, and why this year Bama and South Carolina and Miss State are on a lot more.) And from there sprang the new philosophy that it was no longer time-honored local rivalries that counted, but on the contrary, how far your conference's tv "footprint" spread, the bigger it was supposedly the more money you got, even though the schools you are playing now have no connection or interest to the old-line fans. Do Big10 schools care about Nebraska? Of course not, except maybe Iowa. But they needed a twelfth to reach the feeding trough, so there you have it. Here come the Huskers to play bball at... Penn State.

    So the NCAA is not the only culprit - this BCS bunch that has fostered the BigEast banditry in desperately grasping for any schools that will keep them with enough members to stay in the ring of money is the problem there, and behind all of this are all the ADs and college presidents who have willingly played along. But the real derailing in my opinion of the long-standing traditional and regional conferences began when the NCAA's 12 team/conference football championship rule was brought to light.
    We aren't on ESPNU more, the ACC has an exclusive rights deal with ESPN. The Sunday Night games moved from FSN to ESPNU. The ACC has more games on all ESPN platforms.
    ___________________
    Mike Stein
    Trinity '97, Tent #1 '97
    Tampa

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