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  1. #41
    Arguments based on TV markets are stuck in the same logic the ACC tried to use in 2003. Of course Blacksburg isn't a big TV market (nevermind that the biggest VT alumni base is DC) and Clemson doesn't bring anything to the table from a TV perspective. That's not what the SEC is after here. The SEC is selling its brand, not the appeal of any individual school(s).
    The SEC already has national TV deals with CBS and ESPN, and those didn't come because Starkville, MS, Columbia, SC, and Fayetteville, AR, are media hotbeds. The SEC is selling the best football, the most intense football rivalries, and with the exception of Vandy, major state schools whose following is measured not in alumni but in numbers of people who currently live or who have ever lived in those states (plenty of Alabama and Tennessee fans in the Triangle who are from those states but didn't attend those schools).
    Even for folks without allegiances to those schools, national audiences might not tune in to see Clemson play, but they'll tune in to see if the Gators can survive Death Valley if it's already on TV (which it will be). Plus, the SEC is pretty spread out, and Clemson to the SEC would mean that the shortest drive between two SEC schools would become Clemson to Athens. Clemson to Columbia and Clemson to Knoxville would also be in the top eight. So, the intense regional rivalry that is critical to the SEC brand is just waiting to happen.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    As for the ACC, if it did lose a member or two, it would have no trouble poaching a Big East school -- just as it did in 2004-05. Yeah, Big East basketball has been better than the ACC and the football performance of the two leagues is close, but what does that matter? The ACC is much more lucrative than the Big East ... in fact, the financial gap between the ACC and Big East is wider than the gap between the SEC and ACC. That's why Miami and BC jumped without hestitation and VPI used a shotgun (well, the governor of Virginia) to force its way into the league. Contrary to the note on the DBR front page, Syracuse did not turn down an ACC bid in 2004 ... they were rejected by the ACC presidents. They wanted in badly. They still do.

    If -- and it's a big if -- the ACC loses a school or two, the question we have to answer is which Big East school we want to add. Personally, I think Pitt (a surprisingly good academic fit) is the best option. Forget the lure of Rutgers and the New York market (it doesn't exist for a New Jersey school that nobody in New York cares about). UConn is an academic nightmare -- closer to the SEC than the ACC. I guess Syracuse would be my second pick. It's in the middle of nowhere, but I know a great rib joint downtown!
    Unfortunately, this ignores the possibility of future Big Ten expansion. Any Big East school worth taking would rather get a call from the Big Ten, and might decline for that reason alone.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post

    Finally and perhaps most importantly, when all of this alignment is happening (it sounds like 2015), Duke's football program should be pretty respectable. Sure they won't be amazing, but should be sitting on a few bowl games by then especially since Duke wont' be one of the first schools to move.
    Optimistic much?

    Hey, I'd love to get there but the difference between the current Duke program and the one you describe in 2015 is a long, long, long way off.

    -Jason
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  4. #44
    FSU president has just said there is no truth to the rumors that FSU is going to the SEC.

    http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal...-floridast-sec

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by hudlow View Post
    FSU president has just said there is no truth to the rumors that FSU is going to the SEC.
    He has to say that until FSU receives an invitation.

  6. #46
    Join Date
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    Carolina Beach

    BBall first

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    The only way I wouldn't absolutely hate having raid the Big East or Big 10 and take on teams like Rutgers or Cincinatti (ugh...) is if the league was divided into two fairly independent divisions (as discussed below).

    I actually think it would be awesome if Miami and FSU left and the "ACC South" consisted of:

    Duke
    UNC
    NCSU
    Wake Forest
    Clemson
    Georgia Tech
    Virginia
    Virginia Tech

    Basically, a good ol' Southern Conference reunion!
    My wish would be that the above mentioned teams plus Maryland would be the ACC period. I know football and the revenue produced won't allow that...but I don't look at the ACC as a football conference first, though the decision making is football related. How many national championships won in basketball vs football? 12-2? And wasn't GT a split national championship year? I hate these Super Conferences.

  7. #47

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Optimistic much?

    Hey, I'd love to get there but the difference between the current Duke program and the one you describe in 2015 is a long, long, long way off.

    -Jason
    Well Duke was what a game away from a bowl game in 2009? And last year, 3 losses by 5 points and another by 6 points in games that could have went either way. And I understand one of our wins was by 3 points and another by 7 but that was also with a first year QB and an inexperienced defense. While this year might be a bit of a stretch to get a bowl as things would have to fall perfectly, the following year is pretty promising, Cut is getting recruits and the facilities are being upgraded. I don't think it is too optimistic to say that we could get to .500 for 2 years by 2015. I assume if Duke is bowl eligible, they will get a bid b/c it would make for a decent story b/c it has been so long.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    Well Duke was what a game away from a bowl game in 2009? And last year, 3 losses by 5 points and another by 6 points in games that could have went either way. And I understand one of our wins was by 3 points and another by 7 but that was also with a first year QB and an inexperienced defense. While this year might be a bit of a stretch to get a bowl as things would have to fall perfectly, the following year is pretty promising, Cut is getting recruits and the facilities are being upgraded. I don't think it is too optimistic to say that we could get to .500 for 2 years by 2015. I assume if Duke is bowl eligible, they will get a bid b/c it would make for a decent story b/c it has been so long.
    It's possible, but I'm not sure it would matter. Decent isn't nearly good enough to make a difference.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    It's possible, but I'm not sure it would matter. Decent isn't nearly good enough to make a difference.
    Well my point is that if all of college sports gets uprooted as we know it, meaning either 4 major conferences or mass exodus/realignment, Duke would be good enough in football that it wouldn't weigh Duke down. As you alluded, if expansion occurs, the Big 10 probably gets first pick of BE schools. And if they go to the 16 team leagues, it would probably be the Pac 12 plus some Big 12 or some Mountain West teams. Then you'd have the SEC plus Big 12 and perhaps ACC teams. Then you'd have the Big 10 plus BE and perhaps ND. That leaves whatever is left over in the ACC/BE to combine. My main point is that by 2015, Duke should be more appealing than Wake Forest, G. Tech, or even perhaps Cincy when it comes to football by that point. Then you add in its academics and basketball along with UNC and Duke would more than likely be one of the 64 teams to encompass a major conference. (Now I'm not sure if the 16 team conferences are just for football, in that case, Duke might fall short and this is all under the assumption they would want to be in one of the 4 conferences b/c I'm assuming football would become similar to the NCAA tourney with 64 teams ultimately going down to each conference championship games being the QF, the conference champions squaring off in the semis, and ultimately the finals.)

    Now if a conference like the SEC just picks a few teams then I would agree that it wouldn't make a difference but then the ACC would stay mostly intact and Duke would probably have little interest in leaving anyways especially since I would assume they'd want to stay with the likes of UNC, Wake, UVA unless it becomes a situation where either you are in one of the 4 BCS conferences or you aren't in which case any other football program would be like an FCS team.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    My wish would be that the above mentioned teams plus Maryland would be the ACC period. I know football and the revenue produced won't allow that...but I don't look at the ACC as a football conference first, though the decision making is football related. How many national championships won in basketball vs football? 12-2? And wasn't GT a split national championship year? I hate these Super Conferences.
    Four football national championships: Clemson '81, GT '90, FSU '93, FSU '99. Maryland won in '51, but that was still under the Southern Conference banner.

  11. #51
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    Dillon, Colorado
    You know, this is fun whenever it happens.

    Maybe football will be better in five years. But for now, when it comes to the expansion discussion we're pretty much Kentucky or Kansas with a smaller, less geographically concentrated (but less deranged) fanbase. Actually it would be nice if we were Kentucky or Kansas in football. We're more like Cornell or Dartmouth.

    If necessary -- and it really only will be necessary if an existing ACC school leaves -- I think it's pretty easy to raid the Big East. And the school we go after will almost certainly be Syracuse, especially if K has any say in the matter. Pitt is a solid second option. While people there like being in the BE they've never seemed wed to the idea. Not sure about WVU; they seem more like a Big Ten school, not that the Big Ten has any reason to do anything.

    Anyone think the end result of this will be a split of the BE between the football and non-football schools? The non-football schools could then take on a couple Xavier or Temple type schools. This isn't a new idea, but seems closer than ever.
    Last edited by hurleyfor3; 08-13-2011 at 05:01 PM.

  12. #52
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    Dillon, Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    And wasn't GT a split national championship year?
    I'll give the Soviet Union the 1972 basketball gold medal before I give Colorado any piece of the 1990 national championship.

  13. #53
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    Nov 2007
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    Philly
    I actually think that one of the three schools mentioned (FSU, Missou, Clemson) would make the most sense from the SEC's side. I would doubt that they would want all of them unless something else is making them go all the way to 16. The biggest fallacy out there about expansion is that it is driven by football. That is complete crap. It is driven by money. While good football usually means money making football, those two do not always equate, especially from the SEC's perspective. Anyone coming into the conference would probably take a step back in terms of consistently winning. Televisions markets also mean very little to the SEC. With the Big Ten, TV markets were a big deal because moving into a new TV market would automatically bring new cable rights fees for the Big Ten Network, something the SEC doesn't have yet. Even if it did, there only media market in the top 20 which the SEC doesn't have, but could reasonably get, is Miami at 16, though if they did start a station, they might be able to get it in Miami based off of UF alone. Even if not, Miami (the city, not the school) fans are notoriously lax. Anyway, without media markets to drive the money issue, the next biggest thing is who will generate more from an ESPN contract. This means that they need to be part of marketable TV match-ups (through rivalries or quality), and need a fan base that will turn on the TV even if their team is going 4-4 or 3-5 in the SEC, compared to 5-3 or 6-2 in their old conference. Given the state of UNC football, that isn't happening any time soon for them. I already suggested that this won't happen in Miami, so those guys are probably out. Gaining the FSU/UF game under the SEC umbrella would be a big deal. Clemson and Missouri have fan bases that have responded and continued to support teams despite only periodic success on a high level over the years, and that would likely to continue, even if they can't regularly beat the Florida's and Alabama's of the world. There's more reason for and against these teams, but I still think from the SEC side, FSU, Clemson, and Mizzou make sense.
    Pratt '09
    GO DUKE!

  14. #54
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    Galveston, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by devildeac View Post
    Highly doubting it would ever happen as hurleyfor3 so definitively stated, but we do have an ethically challenged neighbor a few miles south on 15-501 who might qualify from a FB perspective(insert faint sounds of whistling here).
    Dang it, devildeac; you beat me to the punch! I was going to suggest the ACC's most recent ethically challenged school as a perfect fit for the SEC. Guess great minds think alike.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    I'll give the Soviet Union the 1972 basketball gold medal before I give Colorado any piece of the 1990 national championship.
    What's wrong with fifth and goal?!?
    "What, me worry?" -- Roy Williams

  16. #56
    Nice blog post by Jeff Schutlz of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on the A&M to the SEC madness

    It’s understandable why A&M would want to escape Texas’ shadow in the Big 12 and come to the SEC, where member schools split a record $220 million in a revenue-sharing plan this fiscal year. I’m not quite as sure why the SEC wants A&M, because other than getting its toes into the state of Texas — assuming College Station counts — this is like a high-end mall expanding to add a Walgreens....

    We’re on a path toward an Orwellian landscape. Three college football superstates: Oceania, Eastasia and Eurasia (with Notre Dame as an independent).

    http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-bl...f_schultz_blog

  17. #57
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    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    There is an extreme level of ignorance in the this thread about "academic institutions" versus... what? "Non-academic institutions?" Every single school being discussed is a Carnegie Doctoral-Extensive institution (R1 in the old parlance). The University of Connecticut is an amazing school. Take a look at their faculty sometime.

    Just more Duke snot. The quality of a University is not determined by what the third string safety on the football team is or isn't doing in class. It isn't determined by what the 18 year-olds averaged on a standardized test. It is determined by, foremost, the quality of the faculty, and by monetary resources and a lot of other factors.

    It's really no wonder everyone hates us.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by fan345678 View Post
    Arguments based on TV markets are stuck in the same logic the ACC tried to use in 2003. Of course Blacksburg isn't a big TV market (nevermind that the biggest VT alumni base is DC) and Clemson doesn't bring anything to the table from a TV perspective. That's not what the SEC is after here. The SEC is selling its brand, not the appeal of any individual school(s).
    The SEC already has national TV deals with CBS and ESPN, and those didn't come because Starkville, MS, Columbia, SC, and Fayetteville, AR, are media hotbeds. The SEC is selling the best football, the most intense football rivalries, and with the exception of Vandy, major state schools whose following is measured not in alumni but in numbers of people who currently live or who have ever lived in those states (plenty of Alabama and Tennessee fans in the Triangle who are from those states but didn't attend those schools).
    Even for folks without allegiances to those schools, national audiences might not tune in to see Clemson play, but they'll tune in to see if the Gators can survive Death Valley if it's already on TV (which it will be). Plus, the SEC is pretty spread out, and Clemson to the SEC would mean that the shortest drive between two SEC schools would become Clemson to Athens. Clemson to Columbia and Clemson to Knoxville would also be in the top eight. So, the intense regional rivalry that is critical to the SEC brand is just waiting to happen.
    Exactly. Everybody listen to this person up in that there post.

    Arguing that Virginia Tech is a bad addition to the ACC because Blacksburg is a mid-small town is about as ridiculous as arguing that Auburn is a bad member of the SEC because Auburn-Opelika isn't very big. BTW, Virginia Tech is just about the only school that has consistently been keeping us from being a complete laughing stock in football since FSU tanked. I wish they'd lose a game or so fewer in conference recently, but us casting stones at them is beyond absurd. And their "TV market" is the whole state, not Blacksburg-Roanoke. And the state has like 8M people in it. And they've got more FB fans than UVA does. They sell out a 66K stadium.Heck, they have a whole lot of alumni from BosWashnia, especially DC and NYC.

    This is what Clemson offers the SEC. They're the Auburn to South Carolina's Bama. (Not in overall stature, but in intensity of rivalry and addition to the brand). And they had a great, really an amazing rivalry with Georgia over the years. It would be fantastic to see that come back. And they've played Auburn recently.

    Nobody who really loves College Football cares who is playing in that 3:30 East slot on CBS. They tune in anyway, because they know they're going to see amazing football. The SEC is the closest thing to a mini-NFL in the respect that the interest transcends the TV markets involved. I live in Saint Louis and I'm from the South. But if the Chargers are playing the Broncos on Sunday night, I tune in. Why? Because the NFL kicks butt, that's why. In my own life, LSU and Bama can personally bite me. But damned if I'm going to miss it when they play. I was watching the Iron Bowl last year in the Delta Skyclub at Hartsfield last year. It was electric. Electric. Only some of the people had ties to either school. In sports, more people watch the best stuff. People tune in all over the nation to root against Duke MBB.

    So the question for the SEC isn't adding TV markets, although new ones wouldn't hurt. It's in selecting probably two to four schools eventually that complement what's already going on in Football and further enhance the brand. This is tougher than it sounds. Clemson is a great fit, especially if they can get back to their 1980s strength. Miami isn't a very good pick. Florida wouldn't want them in and their fan support is weak by SEC standards. A&M is probably a good idea, because they used to have a great rivalry in the SWC with Arkansas and would also get mixed up with LSU. After that, it gets tougher. Mizzou is a new market in a state with around 6M people, but has no logical rivals in the SEC and is historically mediocre in both FB and MBB. FSU has the Florida problem. West Virginia would bring very solid FB but no rivalries. They're a much better antagonist for VT and MD, actually. Texas would be the Hope Diamond, but probably thinks they're too good for anybody. OU if the Big Great Plains implodes? Who knows?

    All the high cards are held by a small number of entities here. The leadership in the PAC12, Big Ten, SEC, Notre Dame, and Texas. That's really about it. The rest of us are a bunch of squirrels trying to hold onto a nut.

    But If I'm the SEC, I think slowly and carefully here, because the status quo is working so, so well. Other than the disaster that was the WAC, 16 is uncharted territory in Football. I think they should check in this big poker game and see if Texas feels a little more willing in a few years. (Maybe that's part of the idea with A&M. If they steal A&M, the Big XII teeters even a little more. Maybe Texas says screw it and comes with. Add a dash of Clemson and a healthy serving of OU, and you've got the best thing this side of the English Premiere league). But they really don't need to rush things. The guy with the big stack can sit some hands out.

    Also, can we quit talking about Vandy and the ACC? The last thing the ACC needs is Vandy. We've got two Vandys already. I like Vanderbilt, but their athletic profile is like if you sewed Duke Football to Wake Forest basketball. If we're going to be a Big Boy conference like the Big Midwesterners Who Can't Count, the Pac12 and the SEC, we need more large schools with big alumni bases who can put a lot of bodies in a stadium.

    Personally, I'd be happy to drop to D3 after Krzyzewski retires, to get out of this ridiculous game. But since that isn't happening, we need to comprehend the realities here instead of patting ourselves on the back for being superior to everyone else. The ACC is in some trouble. Not BE in 2003 trouble, and not Big XII trouble, but in danger of increasing irrelevance. The ACC is not important to generic fans of college football in other regions. (It might be if Miami, FSU, VT, and maybe one of Clemson/GT/UNC were all very good at the same time for a period of years). When USC was amazing, people watched USC everywhere. When Ohio State was amazing, people watched them everywhere. FSU in the 1990s. We have no assets like that right now in FB, though VT and maybe FSU are close. We have two assets like that in MBB. That's it. We're in increasing danger of being not particularly relevant, especially if Duke or UNC falls off after Krzyzewski/RWilliams retire. ACC basketball is not as strong a brand as SEC football. I'm sorry, it's not. They've got eight ranked football teams in some of the preseason magazines. ACC basketball has struggled to keep three or four teams in the top 25 some years lately.

    You can sit around and whine about how it's not 1974 anymore, or you can live in the world that is.
    Last edited by throatybeard; 08-13-2011 at 11:22 PM.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  19. #59

    "Academic Institutions"

    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    There is an extreme level of ignorance in the this thread about "academic institutions" versus... what? "Non-academic institutions?" Every single school being discussed is a Carnegie Doctoral-Extensive institution (R1 in the old parlance). The University of Connecticut is an amazing school. Take a look at their faculty sometime.

    Just more Duke snot. The quality of a University is not determined by what the third string safety on the football team is or isn't doing in class. It isn't determined by what the 18 year-olds averaged on a standardized test. It is determined by, foremost, the quality of the faculty, and by monetary resources and a lot of other factors.

    It's really no wonder everyone hates us.
    Actually, I don't believe that this is really just more "Duke snot". Academics were a huge factor in the Big 10/11/12 expansion discussions last year, and Nebraska likely wouldn't have been invited to the Big 10 had they not been a member of the Association of American Universities at the time (according to their chancellor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associa...ies#Membership (see "Former members")). The other 11 Big 10 schools are members, as are 5/12 ACC schools (including Duke), 8/12 Pac 12 schools, 5/10 Big 12 schools, but just 2/12 SEC schools (Florida & Vanderbilt), and 2/17 Big East schools (Pittsburgh & Rutgers).

    If you go by the Wikipedia numbers, the schools in the Association of American Universities include 7% of all undergraduates but award 52% of all doctorates in the U.S. They have been responsible for 74% of all U.S. Nobel prizes.

    Of the schools mentioned, Texas A&M and Missouri are members, FSU and Clemson are not. Pittsburgh is and Syracuse was until this year. Connecticut and West Virginia are not.

    Just so there's no confusion, I'm not saying that a school has to be a member of the Association of American Universities to be a quality school. I am, however, saying that this stuff matters to the Universities that are making these decisions. When people think about top American Universities, this list is a pretty good representation of who they're talking about. Just as one data point, when I applied to colleges I had never heard of this Association. Nevertheless, I'm not surprised to find that the 6 "top" schools (ranging from Washington University in St. Louis to Ohio State in size) to which I applied all have been members since Duke joined in 1938. Heck, 10 of the 11 schools that I visited are on the list.

  20. #60
    Join Date
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    Durham, NC
    I really think that the ACC is in much better shape than most people think. Last year it had 5 of the top 10 in the director's cup. The focus of the ACC shouldn't be on football, it should be on bringing in high quality institutions that are good in a wide variety of sports.

    That being said, I would love to see the ACC get Notre Dame.

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