Amy Winehouse (1983-2011)

[Indoor66]

Must be a generational thing, but I grew up listening to Jim Morrison and the Doors (real-time) and consider him to be artistically far better that Cobain. I didn't like Cobain's music in the nineties and still don't. The Doors music is timeless.

I think you statement is accurate. It is a generational thing. As far as I'm concerned, timeless music stopped about 1965.

[ArnieMc]

I think you statement is accurate. It is a generational thing. As far as I'm concerned, timeless music stopped about 1965.

Stairway, Smoke, Free Bird? I'd give it at least until 1975.

[OldPhiKap]

I think you statement is accurate. It is a generational thing. As far as I'm concerned, timeless music stopped about 1965.

Technically, 2/3/59 is the day the music died.

Not sure what all that noise was after that, with the kids and their music and their getting all over my lawn and stuff.




P.S. Hendrix>Morrison>Cobain>Winehouse>Janis. And yes, I do like Janis a lot.

[moonpie23]

I think you statement is accurate. It is a generational thing. As far as I'm concerned, timeless music stopped about 1965.

that's very unfortunate for you...

[killerleft]

Yow! I'm going on 59, but so glad to be discovering new music even now. May I suggest some Americana for you old farts? Lots of talent out there, and the sound is recognizable to us elders. To be slightly on topic, Amy's Back to Black album would probably have been welcome in the early '60s, no prob. A bit of censory adjustment would have been in order, though. "What kind of crockery is this?"

[Mal]

Clearly, taste in music is subjective, and Jimi Hendrix is in his own category at the top of whichever popular music mountain you construct. But, for my money and for a lot of others, including many respected rock critics and scholars, Cobain trumps Joplin and Morrison isn't even close to either of them.

Right on. I'm 100% with Billy Dat here. (Sorry for being so late to the party, though). Nirvana had a significant impact on the history of music and is credited by critics as being a major part of rescuing rock from the doldrums it entered in the '80s. The first time "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was played on MTV is still seen as a major turning point in the history of music. That can't be said for anything Joplin or Morrison ever did, in my mind. I don't think refusing to change the lyrics of a song on Ed Sullivan counts as much. Perhaps, as someone else said, Cobain's death ended up taking some of the credit away from Pearl Jam and Soundgarden and others, but the mythologizing is for good reason. On the other hand, IMnotsoHO the Doors are possibly the worst band to ever enter the pantheon of rock megafame. I'm embarassed every time I hear one of their songs, which thankfully is pretty rarely. Joplin made no more impact on music than Winehouse, to my mind. Without Winehouse, there's no Adele and no Sharon Jones making the scene these days. The world of pop music's way too diffuse these days for more than a very, very few acts to rise to the level of stardom commonly seen in the '60's and early '70's. Also, no one listens to the radio anymore, so charting pop hits isn't worth much these days. So you can't ding Winehouse for being a part of that system and not selling as many records or being heard by as many people as Joplin.

[dukestheheat]

It won't be. In my experience working with hardened alcohol and drug addicts, these folks don't begin to turn things around until they hit bottom and are ready to look in the mirror and look at their own lives and take responsibility for the choices the've made and continue to make. They're unmoved by the fact that some celebrity who had the world in the palm of her hands blew it and bit the dust. They hear about it, say OK, and move on to the next fix. Sad but true.

Hey guys, a general question here: What percentage of folks who show this type of aberrant behavior actually have an underlying, untreated form of bipolar disorder? I am trying to remember reading a recent article which showed a very high overlap between addiction and bipolar disease. The patient, oblivious to the disorder, self-medicates to handle the highs and the lows.

thanks,

dth.

[gus]

Right on. I'm 100% with Billy Dat here. (Sorry for being so late to the party, though). Nirvana had a significant impact on the history of music and is credited by critics as being a major part of rescuing rock from the doldrums it entered in the '80s. The first time "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was played on MTV is still seen as a major turning point in the history of music. That can't be said for anything Joplin or Morrison ever did, in my mind. I don't think refusing to change the lyrics of a song on Ed Sullivan counts as much. Perhaps, as someone else said, Cobain's death ended up taking some of the credit away from Pearl Jam and Soundgarden and others, but the mythologizing is for good reason. On the other hand, IMnotsoHO the Doors are possibly the worst band to ever enter the pantheon of rock megafame. I'm embarassed every time I hear one of their songs, which thankfully is pretty rarely. Joplin made no more impact on music than Winehouse, to my mind. Without Winehouse, there's no Adele and no Sharon Jones making the scene these days. The world of pop music's way too diffuse these days for more than a very, very few acts to rise to the level of stardom commonly seen in the '60's and early '70's. Also, no one listens to the radio anymore, so charting pop hits isn't worth much these days. So you can't ding Winehouse for being a part of that system and not selling as many records or being heard by as many people as Joplin.

I don't disagree with you at all here (particularly with your assessment of the doors, who I think of when I hear this line in Sonic Youth's Skip Tracer: "shouting the poetic truths of high school journal keepers"). However, I've actually started souring a bit on Nirvana. That may be because someone put most of "With the Lights Out" on my ipod, and I find a lot of the songs excruciating to listen to. But you have to remember the 80s Big Hair Band era they rescued us from. Pixies deserved to be the band that did it, but Nirvana were the ones who succeeded.

[killerleft]

Right on. I'm 100% with Billy Dat here. (Sorry for being so late to the party, though). Nirvana had a significant impact on the history of music and is credited by critics as being a major part of rescuing rock from the doldrums it entered in the '80s. The first time "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was played on MTV is still seen as a major turning point in the history of music. That can't be said for anything Joplin or Morrison ever did, in my mind. I don't think refusing to change the lyrics of a song on Ed Sullivan counts as much. Perhaps, as someone else said, Cobain's death ended up taking some of the credit away from Pearl Jam and Soundgarden and others, but the mythologizing is for good reason. On the other hand, IMnotsoHO the Doors are possibly the worst band to ever enter the pantheon of rock megafame. I'm embarassed every time I hear one of their songs, which thankfully is pretty rarely. Joplin made no more impact on music than Winehouse, to my mind. Without Winehouse, there's no Adele and no Sharon Jones making the scene these days. The world of pop music's way too diffuse these days for more than a very, very few acts to rise to the level of stardom commonly seen in the '60's and early '70's. Also, no one listens to the radio anymore, so charting pop hits isn't worth much these days. So you can't ding Winehouse for being a part of that system and not selling as many records or being heard by as many people as Joplin.

Janis Joplin probably influenced more female pop and rock singers than any other artist ever. She was Rock & Roll's first female megastar, for Pete's sake! She mesmerized audiences in a way that few who heard her sing live can explain. Music appreciation is surely subjective, but there is so much one has to ignore to downplay her importance to the music scene.

Several books have been written about Joplin. They all try to make sense of the girl, at the same time so vulnerable and yet so hard-driving. She obviously had a wreck of a life, but when she was on stage she really was the Queen of Rock & Roll. Nobody during that talent-rich time in rock history outshone her, man or woman. And that's the real key. For a time, a woman was probably the vocal King of Rock & Roll.

[The Gordog]

Hey guys, a general question here: What percentage of folks who show this type of aberrant behavior actually have an underlying, untreated form of bipolar disorder? I am trying to remember reading a recent article which showed a very high overlap between addiction and bipolar disease. The patient, oblivious to the disorder, self-medicates to handle the highs and the lows.

thanks,

dth.

I think the drugs cause the bipolar disorder, not the other way around.

[Mal]

Janis Joplin probably influenced more female pop and rock singers than any other artist ever.

I'd give that distinction to Aretha, in a landslide, but point taken.

Nobody during that talent-rich time in rock history outshone her, man or woman.

I think this might be a bit of a stretch, too, considering that "Abbey Road" and "Let It Bleed" came out the year before she died, Dylan was at the height of his powers, Hendrix was on a tear, etc.

I have no doubt Joplin was a mesmerizing live performer, and you're right that she was the first female rock singer to really emerge (and that she did so coincident with the rise of the hippies, free love and gender equality probably makes her symbolic in a way that she wouldn't have been if she'd come along in 1960). So she certainly gets credit for that. We shouldn't overlook, though, that her biggest hits were all written by others, and off the top of my head I can only think of two of her songs that are considered to be in the canon of all-time greats ("Bobby McGee" and "Take Another Piece"). The first of those things can't be said about Winehouse. Whereas "Pearl" is as close to a complete artistic statement as Jopliin had (released posthumously, recorded with a band put together by producers to support her and with a disparate bunch of songs taken from a number of writers), Winehouse was the primary force behind "Back to Black," which stands as one of the most important albums of its decade just as "Pearl" would from its own.

I don't want to sound like I'm down on Joplin and her legacy or anything - I'm just saying it's not crazy to say that in the long run, Winehouse will have approximately the same.

Gus - good call on the Pixies. If I recall, they inspired Cobain to start ranting and screaming in the first place. Fair or not, though, it has to be noted that "Nevermind" was selling something like half a million copies a week in 1991. Whatever the artistic merits of their rivals, Nirvana was the commercial breakthrough that made everything that came after (good and bad) possible in the '90's. That box set never should have been released, though - too much unpolished stuff that was never meant to be for the public's ears.

[cato]

I don't disagree with you at all here (particularly with your assessment of the doors, who I think of when I hear this line in Sonic Youth's Skip Tracer: "shouting the poetic truths of high school journal keepers"). However, I've actually started souring a bit on Nirvana. That may be because someone put most of "With the Lights Out" on my ipod, and I find a lot of the songs excruciating to listen to. But you have to remember the 80s Big Hair Band era they rescued us from. Pixies deserved to be the band that did it, but Nirvana were the ones who succeeded.

Good point about the Pixies, but I'd give the distinction to Jane's Addiction. In my mind, Surfer Rosa, Nothing Shocking, Nevermind and Ten will always stand together as the quartet of albums that redeemed American music.

[killerleft]

I'd give that distinction to Aretha, in a landslide, but point taken.


I think this might be a bit of a stretch, too, considering that "Abbey Road" and "Let It Bleed" came out the year before she died, Dylan was at the height of his powers, Hendrix was on a tear, etc.

I have no doubt Joplin was a mesmerizing live performer, and you're right that she was the first female rock singer to really emerge (and that she did so coincident with the rise of the hippies, free love and gender equality probably makes her symbolic in a way that she wouldn't have been if she'd come along in 1960). So she certainly gets credit for that. We shouldn't overlook, though, that her biggest hits were all written by others, and off the top of my head I can only think of two of her songs that are considered to be in the canon of all-time greats ("Bobby McGee" and "Take Another Piece"). The first of those things can't be said about Winehouse. Whereas "Pearl" is as close to a complete artistic statement as Jopliin had (released posthumously, recorded with a band put together by producers to support her and with a disparate bunch of songs taken from a number of writers), Winehouse was the primary force behind "Back to Black," which stands as one of the most important albums of its decade just as "Pearl" would from its own.

I don't want to sound like I'm down on Joplin and her legacy or anything - I'm just saying it's not crazy to say that in the long run, Winehouse will have approximately the same.

Gus - good call on the Pixies. If I recall, they inspired Cobain to start ranting and screaming in the first place. Fair or not, though, it has to be noted that "Nevermind" was selling something like half a million copies a week in 1991. Whatever the artistic merits of their rivals, Nirvana was the commercial breakthrough that made everything that came after (good and bad) possible in the '90's. That box set never should have been released, though - too much unpolished stuff that was never meant to be for the public's ears.

I can't quibble with your reply to my post, certainly there's room for opinions either way. I'd like to say this about Amy Winehouse, though. Concerning the "27 Club", anyway, I think she was the one with the most room and best potential to become an even better performer. She was the most instinctively musical of the bunch, and had proven, as you say, that she could both write and arrange at a high level.

Ah, those drugs. Who knows, the cure for cancer may have been lost in a bottle or syringe.

[gus]

Good point about the Pixies, but I'd give the distinction to Jane's Addiction. In my mind, Surfer Rosa, Nothing Shocking, Nevermind and Ten will always stand together as the quartet of albums that redeemed American music.

Tomato, tomato. I guess Jane's Addiction came first, but I prefer the Pixies. I can't think of another American act from the late 80s I'd take over either of them. But didn't Jane's Addiction pick up Duff at one point? That definitely knocks them below the Pixies.

[tommy]

I think the drugs cause the bipolar disorder, not the other way around.

I know I'm the one who was talking about drug addicts and the choices they make, but I read an article in the Atlantic the other day that blew my mind, concerning the advances in the understanding of brain chemistry and its impact on human behavior, including criminal behavior, and how these advances must begin to inform the functioning of our criminal justice system. I recommend it very highly -- pretty amazing stuff. The article can be found here.

[moonpie23]

if you say that "The first time "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was played on MTV is still seen as a major turning point in the history of music." then you must credit the same for the band that made it turn AWAY from grunge....Hootie and the Blowfish.

[Mal]

if you say that "The first time "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was played on MTV is still seen as a major turning point in the history of music." then you must credit the same for the band that made it turn AWAY from grunge....Hootie and the Blowfish.

That would be like giving equal credit to Robert Mondavi and Bartles & James. Some turning points are good, some not so much!

Anyway, I think the diluted, faux-grunge, "alternative rock" radio garbage that came to prominence in the wake of Cobain's death was plenty to turn people away from grunge, anyway. Bush and Candlebox and Alannis Morrisette did more to bury grunge than Hootie or Sheryl Crow or Counting Crows or whoever else making straight up pop rock records ever dreamed. I don't think there was a backlash toward simpler, sunnier music so much as the usual profit-driven cannibalizing of whatever's new and successful in popular music, which just happened at a faster pace than usual. Whereas it took probably 15 years to get from the breakthroughs of the Stones and CSNY to the full-on watered down collapse symbolized by the Eagles, it took less than 5 to get from "Nevermind" to "Throwing Copper."

[NashvilleDevil]

Chuck Klosterman has a pretty good column today on Grantland about the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Towards the end of the column he discusses Amy Winehouse and her place in rock history because of her unfortunate death at 27.

[moonpie23]

i brought up some of these comments to a young intern today. He's 20, smart, and plugged in....when i mentioned NIRVANA, he said, "isn't that the band dave grohl used to play in?"

[cato]

NIRVANA . . . "isn't that the band dave grohl used to play in?"

Awesome.