Predict Duke Football Victories

[formerdukeathlete]

What is a "Duke" fan? Does that mean that everyone who doesn't attend the student play or jazz band concert, or dance recital, or debate club, or whatever other student activity, ISN'T a Duke fan, or is it only around Duke Football?

You do realize that there are about 6,000 undergraduates at Duke, right? What makes the 70-80 who are on the football team any more special than the other 200-300 athletes, or any other student who otherwise represents Duke in a public arena? I doubt you'd harp as much on the "disgrace" that was the minimal fan turnout for the women's last rowing outing.

As for your soccer-mom analogy, puh-lease. Cheering on YOUR OWN CHILD in an activity you support them attending is in NO WAY comparable to attending a sporting event at your academic institution. Newsflash -- people go to top-tier education institutions for other reasons than sports. It's not like at Duke, there's some special essay you have to write about why you should be accepted because you're an awesome FAN. I know some Duke grads who actually (gasp) DISLIKE watching sports (most preferred to play themselves.)

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/637028-p2.html

Staged planned renovations for Wade referred to in the n&o article linked above are very encouraging.

It is unfortunate that the Trustees have yet to approve this. Worriedly, this may be repeat of tentative half-heated support for athletics at Duke.

So, my recommendation for the future of Duke athletics among those of you who care is to write, call the Trustees you know to encourage them to approve the staged renovation of Wade. Interestingly, it includes eventual removal of the running track.

and, getting back to RPS' comments re the lack of student fan support for athletics, I think this is a function of years of dysfunctional admissions policies which began under Nan's watch. Before Nan, applicants got more points for time consuming extra-curriculars in high school such as varsity sports, student government and for working. With Nan, kids got extra points for writing essays about topics deemed progressive. We, Duke got away from admitting future leaders as a matter of policy (this is still Harvard's criteria) and now with Brodhead this has evolved into striving to stimilate "intellectual activity." What does this mean? How many hours can you study a day as well as attend class? So, if you are socially inclined, like attending mixers, you will want to go to an off campus bar, even say a Delt party. But, if you are not so socially inclined or interested in dating you might find time to attend a book club meeting. Is this the type of "intellectual activity" we are talking about?

Leadership under nan and now Brodhead vis a vis student life has been abysmal. Of course our Football team has struggled tremendously during this time frame. Getting back to RPS, if Duke's admissions policies are skewed to admitting types who would have been immediately escorted to the back room at the rush party in Animal House to sit down with the geeks and freaks, then of course these folks once attending Duke will not be inclined to walk to Wally Wade when this might compete with some quality time reading Othello with Brodhead.

It is time for Duke to make a commitment, a long-term commitment to Football, to increase the number of varisty teams fielded, to endow athletic scholarships. This is more important for the future of campus life and really the future financial health of the univeristy than its plans for an arts cluster in central campus.

And, Trustees, please, hire someone to replace Brodhead.

[RPS]

Alumna -- Your level of vitriol suggests that you feel guilty. If so, you might consider why. Oh, and the Fuqua connection is great news. That's good "outside-the-box" thinking.

What is a "Duke" fan?

That's a good question.

Does that mean that everyone who doesn't attend the student play or jazz band concert, or dance recital, or debate club, or whatever other student activity, ISN'T a Duke fan, or is it only around Duke Football?

No. But for students, part of it is supporting one's friends and peers, so I would expect students to regularly attend student events such as those you describe. But there's a further element relating to the public aspects of being a Duke fan. For whatever reasons, basketball is clearly #1 at Duke. That's not new and it's not news. Football is the other "public" sport. If students and other fans don't support it it's visible public information in ways that track attendance isn't. Thus I expect greater support. Other sports and events can become public at various times and for various reasons and also deserve greater support. Lax became that during the scandal. Students owed it to their peers to attend. A great tournament run by another sport deserves greater support. A major public event on campus (perhaps a major political debate) deserves greater support. I think that WBB has become such a public sport all the time now at Duke and should be supported accordingly.The idea is that a real Duke fan looks out for one's own. They represent you and your school, remember?

You do realize that there are about 6,000 undergraduates at Duke, right?

Yup -- up a bit from my days.

What makes the 70-80 who are on the football team any more special than the other 200-300 athletes, or any other student who otherwise represents Duke in a public arena?

It isn't a matter of how special? but of how public?. At schools with other sports that are highly prominent (e.g., softball at Arizona, women's soccer at UNC, lax at Johns Hopkins, etc.), attendance should be much greater than elsewhere. WBB has become that at Duke and Cameron should now always be rocking for them.

I doubt you'd harp as much on the "disgrace" that was the minimal fan turnout for the women's last rowing outing.

Any home game or match in any sport where the opponents' fans greatly outnumber the home fans is a real cause for concern and reflects poorly on the home school's fans and students. If it's a highly public event, perhaps a conference championship on the line, attendance should be significantly greater.

As for your soccer-mom analogy, puh-lease. Cheering on YOUR OWN CHILD in an activity you support them attending is in NO WAY comparable to attending a sporting event at your academic institution.

It obviously isn't the same but there is an obvious connection. You go to (or should go to) your kid's soccer game because it's your kid. You go to (or should go to) your school's prominent public event because it's your school.

Newsflash -- people go to top-tier education institutions for other reasons than sports. It's not like at Duke, there's some special essay you have to write about why you should be accepted because you're an awesome FAN. I know some Duke grads who actually (gasp) DISLIKE watching sports (most preferred to play themselves.)

So?

As for Wake Football in 2005, they were on a roll! It was exciting! They had bandwagon fans, located a short hour's drive away!

In what universe is 3-5 (leading to 4-7) on a roll (though I'd like to see it at Duke)?

I have no doubt that if Duke looks like it has a chance to win against UNC this year, maybe goes in with 3 wins to its final game of the season, Dukies would come out in force. It's called momentum, and 0-fer doesn't generate it.

Rivalry games get better attendance and should get more attendance because they are more desirable and more prominent. Moreover, bandwagon fans are a fact of life, but it's not like it's a good thing.

Now, i understand that in your case, you are cheering on your own child.

My older two stopped public competitive sports when they went to college. My youngest is still in high school, so I don't know what you're driving at here unless you're alluding to my youngest's likely future as a college football player. Of course I'd like his teams to be well supported. But at the high school level, football is typically the most public sport and is at my kids' school. Thus I expect much more attendance there than at his soccer or lacrosse matches. But I do expect significant student support at home matches in the "lesser" that well outnumbers the opposition's fans.

Good for you, good for him. It's great you're such a supportive, passionate, enthusiastic booster for your outstanding student-athlete son, and that he has so many doors open to him at this point in his life.

It's actually more difficult than I expected. The number of schools which have both good academics and good football is very small.

Does that mean that all 6,000 other Duke undergrads (plus nearly the same amout of grad students) should care the same about him, and cheer as hard for him as you would? Hardly. He's not *that* special, sorry. And just because they don't, doesn't give you the right to look down upon them.

I suggest that you take the Nebraska straw out of your teeth because that's a straw-man argument.

You've made it quite clear on the LAX board that Duke in general, and Duke Football in particular, is "lacking" for your athlete, so I'm not quite sure why you're coming here to bash my fellow alums anyway...

Duke won't be his school, but it's still my school. I want it to be successful and supported -- in every way. Oh, and by the way, the problem I'm pointing out is largely with current students, not our "fellow alums."

P.S. I'm going to be away for the better part of a week, so the likely last word is for you.

[Bluedawg]

Todays News and Observer says:

"Duke football is re-evaluating every aspect of how it operates -- from the size of its support staff to the design of its stadium. Duke coach Ted Roof has decided to enlist some help from the business school in determining practical ways to reach his goals."

This looks to me like Coach Roof is willing to pull out all of the stops to turn this program around. I've said before that I like Coach Roof and the approach he is taking. This just reinforces that. He has stepped up recruiting and now he is showing his willingness for thinking beyond the standard parameters

[dukie8]

Todays News and Observer says:

"Duke football is re-evaluating every aspect of how it operates -- from the size of its support staff to the design of its stadium. Duke coach Ted Roof has decided to enlist some help from the business school in determining practical ways to reach his goals."

This looks to me like Coach Roof is willing to pull out all of the stops to turn this program around. I've said before that I like Coach Roof and the approach he is taking. This just reinforces that. He has stepped up recruiting and now he is showing his willingness for thinking beyond the standard parameters

i don't get it. the article says that the board has NOT approved it AND there is no funding. isn't a little bit premature to be leaking this out? isn't it akin to the baseball coach, on his own, drawing up plans for a 50,000 seat stadium without any other backing? it all sounds nice but someone has to pay for it.

[dukie8]

No. But for students, part of it is supporting one's friends and peers, so I would expect students to regularly attend student events such as those you describe. But there's a further element relating to the public aspects of being a Duke fan. For whatever reasons, basketball is clearly #1 at Duke. That's not new and it's not news. Football is the other "public" sport. If students and other fans don't support it it's visible public information in ways that track attendance isn't. Thus I expect greater support. Other sports and events can become public at various times and for various reasons and also deserve greater support. Lax became that during the scandal. Students owed it to their peers to attend. A great tournament run by another sport deserves greater support. A major public event on campus (perhaps a major political debate) deserves greater support. I think that WBB has become such a public sport all the time now at Duke and should be supported accordingly.The idea is that a real Duke fan looks out for one's own. They represent you and your school, remember?.

your presumptiveness is ridiculous. i didn't need ANYONE telling me or expecting me to show up to various events when i was at duke. i don't know where you get that a duke student's duty is to support one's friends and peers because it is not. as a duke student, you have a myriad of things to spend your time on and attending a lousy team's games usually is not one of them. if you want to attend such games, great. however, there is zero duty to do so.

at other schools, football is more of a social event than a sporting event so students are going to show up regardless of how good or bad the team is. plenty of people go for the tailgate and never even bother going in to watch the game because they are there for the tailgate. if you eliminate tailgating, attendance would drop off precipituously. for whatever reason, the tailgate phenomenon never really has caught on at duke.

people enjoy going to basketball games because the team usually is very good and there is a long tradition with the team. if the team were to become bad, like in 1995, students stop going to the games. the football team has been horrific for a number of years no matter what metric you use. if the team were to become good, like say in 1989, then people will show up to the games. i can't believe that it is being argued on here that people don't attend football games because the bathrooms aren't nice and there isn't a good selection of food. i actually liked ww because you can get great seats and you can park close by and get out rather easily. the bottom line is if you put out a good product, then people will show up.

[Exiled_Devil]

You know what one of the things I like about Duke? The fact that football isn't a big deal. The fact that other sports - basketball, lacrosse, golf, soccer - have a higher profile than the football team. I think that is great.

I have never been to a football game in 35 years of life. Not one. I didn't have a football team at my high school or at my university. I think it is a fine game now, from watching it on TV. But I think that the football worship that overcomes large sections of our nation and at least two posters in this thread is ridiculous. It's only a sport, and its not the top sport here. That does not hurt the school, despite what you try to pull together from conversations you have with a couple of people and information you may have heard from administrators.

I find your inference that the school is admitting more geeks and freaks (I forget who used the exact words) to be insulting to myself and to the admissions department. Do you have any evidence that admissions has been skewed away from people who participated in extra-curriculars and sports specifically? (Evidence would be documentation). Your comments are either challenging the ethics of the admissions counselors or challenging their competence. In either case, its an unnecessary slight. I was probably one of those geeks and freaks types at 18 - so you are saying that if I did apply to Duke, I should have not been let in due to my lack of playing normal varsity sport? (I did play men's volleyball, but on the east coast where I am from this qualified you for freak status in the late 80's)

And do you have any evidence that the current student body is bad for the university? Because that is the implication of your statements about admissions, giving and supporting football. You are saying that these students hurt Duke because they don't support the football team. And consequently the university will be hurt.

Get over football. Your glib response to Alumna reveals that you take football too seriously. They are at best the third team on campus, and that's okay. To Alumna's point, why should they have more consideration than the theater program and Hoof n Horn? I know for a fact that Duke has had several Broadway performers in the last couple of years. Are they less of an asset to the school than a former football player. Are they less leaders of their field?
A Duke fan either is a fan of all things Duke, which means they need to support non-sporting aspects of the school, or they can choose to support what they want. You seem to equate Duke fan with Duke athletics fan, and specifically with revenue sports fan. That is simply an inane argument.

Speaking of inane arguments, I would like to also comment on FDA's assertion that "Duke got away from admitting future leaders as a matter of policy" which it seems he links to HS sports participation. I don't know the veracity of your argument about the admissions shift, but even if it is true, the idea that the kids who did everything in high school are destined to be the leaders of the free world is inane. Simply inane.

Sorry about the rant, but the regular 'football should be more central' argument drives me nuts. Football does not need to be central, and any argument for that point is simply an attempt to foist a culture and environment on the school that the proponents incorrectly assume is the one, true, American way to spend a Saturday. And when those arguments inevitably start insulting the student body, the administration, and the posters on this board, I have to fire back.

Exiled
PS - Don't take this as my wishing football would go away. I am fine with it and friend with a couple of football alums. I would be psyched for a successful football team. But I do not think it is important. And certanly not essential to university success.

[Jarhead]

i don't get it. the article says that the board has NOT approved it AND there is no funding. isn't a little bit premature to be leaking this out? isn't it akin to the baseball coach, on his own, drawing up plans for a 50,000 seat stadium without any other backing? it all sounds nice but someone has to pay for it.

My understanding is that the project is a plan of action that Ted Roof is submitting to Aleva for consideration. I believe he has been submitting an annual plan every year, but this one is more long term and reaches into the business end of managing a football program. In his preparations he has enlisted help from certain people in Fuqua, and he is using other positions that are already staffed and other institutions as resources for the plan. Smart way to go, but he will need help from the leadership. This idea will put Aleva and the board on the spot. If they don't act, they are not interested. In that case we may as well kiss the ACC goodbye. Good Luck, Ted.

[Duvall]

Many schools disagree. Prominent examples include Stanford (for obvious reasons) and Harvard (41 varsity sports -- the most anywhere -- and roughly one in four undergraduates a recruited varsity athlete).

Ah, but we are now conflating two different factors, revenue sports (specifically football) and non-revenue sports. I've seen the state of Harvard and Yale football - trust me, Duke has no need to worry about catching up to that.

As for non-revenue sports, I agree that Duke should continue to support those students and teams. But the university is already doing a fantastic job of fielding competitive teams in most of those sports, trailing only deep-pocketed Stanford among private universities. I don't see how there can be a problem with the level of support there.

Moreover, the idea that it's luxurious fluff is belied by the connection between athletic success and both undergraduate applications and alumni giving. It's no coincidence that Duke's rise up the rankings charts corresponds nicely to its basketball success.

Is that true, though? It's my understanding that Duke's biggest leap in undergraduate school reputation came between the early '70s and the mid-80s, arguably a period when Duke revenue sports were significantly weaker than usual.

While improving your name recognition could be an asset, I'm not sure how much it's going to help Duke at this point. Duke is already known; it isn't going to become unknown any time soon.

The deed is done - if Duke were to stop offering athletic scholarships and move to Division III tomorrow, it would continue to be a great university. I don't expect that to happen, and I don't want to happen, but if it did, Duke would not only survive, but thrive. There is far more to this university than a good basketball program and a bad football program.

If you think so you aren't very experienced with the athletic recruiting process. Duke's competition will remind parents and students early and often about the lax case and what it means for athletes at Duke for years to come. K's success and reputation can readily overcome that. It will be much more difficult for football.

They may well try, but it still won't be long before 2006 seems like ancient history to high school kids. The lacrosse case is already old news for most of the world outside of Duke.

Sadly, you're probably right. But it doesn't speak well of our students, who ought to support their school and their peers, particularly when contrasted with the (much higher) level of student support at other schools despite "competitive difficulties" or even with earlier times at Cameron, when student support was excellent even when the teams were not.

I think you underestimate how bad Duke's "competitive difficulties" have been. It's one thing for a mediocre program to retain fans, but Duke has been historically awful, with four winless seasons in the last decade, without a single season in which bowl eligibility was even threatened. It is not remarkable that so few fans show up for games at this point; it is remarkable that any fans show up at all.

That's a major so long as. Duke has been rife with stories of professors sticking it to athletes, and particularly football players, simply for being athletes, for a long time. All of us who attended should be familiar with the anecdotal evidence.

It's a cliche, but true - the plural of anecdote is not data. It would take more than one example and a few unsourced anecdotes to show that the Duke faculty is hostile towards athletes. I agree that professors should not treat student-athletes differently, I just never saw much to suggest that it was a problem.

(Ah, but I forgot - the fearsome open letter! Truly Duke is a forbidding place for athletes.)

[gep]

You know what one of the things I like about Duke? The fact that football isn't a big deal. The fact that other sports - basketball, lacrosse, golf, soccer - have a higher profile than the football team. I think that is great.

I have never been to a football game in 35 years of life. Not one. I didn't have a football team at my high school or at my university. I think it is a fine game now, from watching it on TV. But I think that the football worship that overcomes large sections of our nation and at least two posters in this thread is ridiculous. It's only a sport, and its not the top sport here. That does not hurt the school, despite what you try to pull together from conversations you have with a couple of people and information you may have heard from administrators.

Hi... I hope I'm not taking your comments too out of context... but I do agree that it's nice that football at Duke is *not* the be-all and end-all for college sports, as it is at other traditional "football" schools. Even so, I would at least like the football to be able to compete, be in a lot, if not all, of the games, and win a few of those.

I, for one, can't wait for this football season, and do hope for a positive season overall. thanks...

[Exiled_Devil]

Your response is on the money, gep. I don't wish the football team ill. I would love to see them win, and win a lot. Seeing a return of the on-field Iron Dukes, with the defenseive stopping power and almost undefeated record would be pretty amazing.

That being said, itis nice that football is not the end-all, be-all. It creates a different atmosphere, one that I have appreciated at other places I have studied.

Exiled

[formerdukeathlete]

i don't get it. the article says that the board has NOT approved it AND there is no funding. isn't a little bit premature to be leaking this out? isn't it akin to the baseball coach, on his own, drawing up plans for a 50,000 seat stadium without any other backing? it all sounds nice but someone has to pay for it.

Yes, from a strictly fund accounting point of view, measuring revenues verus football specific expenses, Duke Football runs at a loss. What Duke earns in home receipts, visiting team guarantees, less expenses such as coaches salaries, maintaining the Yoh Center, field, etc. and importantly scholarships costs, Duke runs at a $2 million deficit.

Then comes in Iron Duke contributions, which presently track $14 million a year. Football scholarships costs $4million a year. I think it is somewhat safe to say that $4 million of those contributions are from alums, including many Footballers, are motivated by a desire to support the Football program. Add money to the Gridiron society and varsity club. Then, the Football Program runs at a $3 million net net positive to the athletic program.

But, wait, by fielding a Football team, Duke gets to be in the ACC, which revenue shares about $13 million a year. Football is at least 1/2, actually it is more like 2/3 rds of the league revenue sharing. So then, Duke Football incrementally adds another $9 million net net positive to the University - for according to these estimates nearly $12 million net net to the U. These numbers might need some adjustment; however, the point is that Duke Football helps the University fund its other athletic teams.

Let's say for the sake of argument $24 million in improvements are targeted for Wade. Duke makes these back in 2 years.

Regarding fundraising, and Watzone correct me if you disagree, Athletics fundraising for such things as renovations for Wade has been held in check by folks in the Allen Building because other funding priorities set by these folks would be more difficult to meet if donors had a choice between some cubicles in the Library or some seats in a new Wade building.

But, now, the needs for improvements to Wade are compelling. We simply must as a University get away from this institutional hesitation to support Athletics and Football in particular. Harvard supports its athletics programs unabashedly. Why cannot Duke? Again, this is much more important in my view to ability of Duke to attract top students than some arts cluster in Central Campus. So, if the Central Campus fundraising program runs at the same time as the programs to raise money to renovate Wade and Cameron, and if the athletic fundraising reaches goals more easily than Central Campus - sobeit. This should tell the geeks in Allen Building something about what the alums and benefactors feel will benefit Duke in the long run.

[Richard Berg]

Harvard supports its athletics programs unabashedly. Why cannot Duke?

Come again? According to Wikipedia, Harvard Stadium holds 30,898 people; Wally Wade holds 33,941. Harvard used to hold 55k+ before it was downsized.

I'm not saying I agree that stadium size connotes administrative support. In fact, I find the idea ludicrous. But it obviously doesn't support your argument either.

Again, this is much more important in my view to ability of Duke to attract top students than some arts cluster in Central Campus.

About 1000 students live on Central. An order of magnitude fewer students come to Wally Wade.

It wasn't that long ago I was a highly recruited p-frosh. Improved living facilities I can enjoy 24/7, or improved stadium where I might spend 100 hours (best case) over my entire Duke career? Hmm, tough decision.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

"kreme", "krispy",.......maybe they should use their doughnut money to put a first grade spelling teacher on the faculty. (Bless their hearts.)
Love, Ima

[Fan in VA]

But, now, the needs for improvements to Wade are compelling. We simply must as a University get away from this institutional hesitation to support Athletics and Football in particular.

Say what? You really believe that Duke doesn't support athletics?? Good lord, every athletics building within eyesight around Cameron is virtually new or heavily renovated within the last 10 or so years! What more do you want?

Again, this is much more important in my view to ability of Duke to attract top students than some arts cluster in Central Campus.

How exactly does that work out? How exactly, could having a better football team POSSIBLY attract more "top students"? Is there some motherlode of "top students" who are turned off of duke because they don't have a better football team?

Look, I'd like to see a better football program too--because I like Duke football, and I'd rather watch winning games than gutwrenching loss after loss. But be real...

Richard said it well.. housing absolutely matters to students! I like how you manage to disparage the idea that prospective students would be attracted to better housing, while simultaneously saying that wally wade needs to be better to attract...something? Even if every single student--undergrad, grad, professional, med, etc etc came, the stadium still wouldn't be full! And we want to expand it?

This should tell the geeks in Allen Building something about what the alums and benefactors feel will benefit Duke in the long run.

Just...wow. You say things like this, and then you wonder why there is discussion about the influence of athletics possibly being too much on campus?? I mean seriously--"geeks"?! What is this, kindergarden?

We get it--you want Duke to be a sports school and for the "geeks" to be kicked off campus. Well, one of the things that I loved about Duke was that there was room for everybody--the people who didn't even know we had a basketball team and the ones who camped out all year. The ones who did want to live in that "arts cluster" and the one whose dorm walls were completely barren (guilty!). May sound corny as hell, but it's true.

I think Duke has done a pretty awesome job of being a top academic school and a top sports school, with a top collection of students..

[formerdukeathlete]

Come again? According to Wikipedia, Harvard Stadium holds 30,898 people; Wally Wade holds 33,941. Harvard used to hold 55k+ before it was downsized.

I'm not saying I agree that stadium size connotes administrative support. In fact, I find the idea ludicrous. But it obviously doesn't support your argument either.


About 1000 students live on Central. An order of magnitude fewer students come to Wally Wade.

It wasn't that long ago I was a highly recruited p-frosh. Improved living facilities I can enjoy 24/7, or improved stadium where I might spend 100 hours (best case) over my entire Duke career? Hmm, tough decision.

Firstly, regarding Harvard, 25% of its undergrads are recruited student athletes. 1 n 4. Harvard supports 41 varsity sports unabashedly, no question, and believes its student athletes are among the future leaders of our country, which, of course, they are. The Ivy league provides virtually no revenue sharing. Net of league and other TV revenue sharing, Harvard's athletic department's budget is much greater than Duke's athletic budget. Harvard does not question this. Harvard is committed to these expenditures.

On the other hand, Duke has since the 1960s persistently questioned its commitment to the one (football) of two things (football and basketball) which provide it with revenue which enables it to offer athletic programs at a fraction of the cost of Harvard.

AND, Duke is at a crossroads. Either it improves its Football program, or it eventually must leave the ACC.

Central Campus versus Wade - no one doubts the need for refurbishment. However, for my money, and where I will donate money, is if there is a fundraising endeavor to renovate Wade. This in my view is part and parcel of fixing Football and saving the athletic department long-term. Stadium proposals do not include adding a second deck, but rather adding indoor luxury boxes to replace the hideous president's box, and eventually removing the running track and adding seats close to the field.

This is where my money will go, and it will be money well spent. In remaining in the ACC, Duke spends net net less on athletics than Harvard, for example, leaving more funds available for general student aid and housing.

I believe it is an investment (fixing Wade) which absolutely must be undertaken at this time for all of these reasons.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Central Campus versus Wade - no one doubts the need for refurbishment. However, for my money, and where I will donate money, is if there is a fundraising endeavor to renovate Wade.

Fortunately, there are people who will donate for Central Campus and people who will donate for football capital projects, and some who will donate for both. All designated donations are needed, regardless of their destination.

If I ever win a large Powerball jackpot, I hope to endow a football scholarship. Of course, the Iron Dukes better not be holding their breath waiting for it to happen.

[dukie8]

Firstly, regarding Harvard, 25% of its undergrads are recruited student athletes. 1 n 4. Harvard supports 41 varsity sports unabashedly, no question, and believes its student athletes are among the future leaders of our country, which, of course, they are. The Ivy league provides virtually no revenue sharing. Net of league and other TV revenue sharing, Harvard's athletic department's budget is much greater than Duke's athletic budget. Harvard does not question this. Harvard is committed to these expenditures.

why do you hold harvard out as the model program? it may have the most sports (41) but it certainly doesn't have the best sports. are you impressed with its 18-18 baseball team, its 12-16 men's basketball team, its 15-13 women's basketball team, its 4-7 men's lax team, its 10-9 men's tennis team, its 4-16 women's tennis team or its 3-13-1 women's soccer team? if duke dared to even field half that amount of trainwreck seasons, both alleva and brodhead would be run out of town. also, don't forget that all of these teams get the luxury of competing in the less-than-competitive ivy league. stick them in the acc and i think that we would be looking at some o-fers. stanford may have a better athletic department but it isn't by much. duke, year in and year out, puts some of the best teams out there without making a complete mockery of academics.

also, what does "Net of league and other TV revenue sharing" exactly mean when you are talking about athletic budgets. that's like a movie theatre talking about net of ticket sales.

On the other hand, Duke has since the 1960s persistently questioned its commitment to the one (football) of two things (football and basketball) which provide it with revenue which enables it to offer athletic programs at a fraction of the cost of Harvard.

false. the football team LOSES money. stop living in the fairly world in which reality is suspended and football subsidizes the "olympic" sports. the sport is called men's basketball.

AND, Duke is at a crossroads. Either it improves its Football program, or it eventually must leave the ACC.

where is this ultimatum coming from? i've never heard any grumblings from acc poobahs that duke better get its act together otherwise duke will be voted off the island. quite the contrary, most of the acc schools readily enjoy the fruits of duke raking in basketball tournament money and ensuring tv coverage (if you are playing duke, the game will be on tv and very well may be on national tv).

Central Campus versus Wade - no one doubts the need for refurbishment. However, for my money, and where I will donate money, is if there is a fundraising endeavor to renovate Wade. This in my view is part and parcel of fixing Football and saving the athletic department long-term. Stadium proposals do not include adding a second deck, but rather adding indoor luxury boxes to replace the hideous president's box, and eventually removing the running track and adding seats close to the field.

knock yourself out with funding wade. however, if you want to have a real impact on students and attracting more top students, i would put your money towards something that more than just a handful of students care about. in all my life, i never have come across someone who said that he/she would have gone to duke but for wade. you are living in lala land if you think that there are a lot of people out there who think that.

[Exiled_Devil]

Firstly, regarding Harvard, 25% of its undergrads are recruited student athletes. 1 n 4. Harvard supports 41 varsity sports unabashedly, no question, and believes its student athletes are among the future leaders of our country, which, of course, they are. The Ivy league provides virtually no revenue sharing. Net of league and other TV revenue sharing, Harvard's athletic department's budget is much greater than Duke's athletic budget. Harvard does not question this. Harvard is committed to these expenditures.

And 0 out of 4 are on athletic scholarship - Ivy League schools do not offer athletic scholarships.

Your argument that Harvard unabashedly supports athletics is seriously undermined by the fact that they do not offer scholarships to athletes.

Your arguments, FDA, are just ridiculous - the idea that Duke would need to leave the ACC if it doesn't improve football? Duke, Carolina, NCSU, and Wake are the core of the ACC. Four of the founding schools of the conference. Noone with any sense of hsitory would let any of the four schools leave.

And a quick note on your comment about number of varsity teams - only three schools in the ACC have more varsity teams than Duke. SHould they be admonished for not supporting athletics? Should tehy all leave the conference?

Your confounding 'college athletics' with 'college football' does injustice to the athletic department and the student body. You accuse them of 'not supporting athletics' when you really just want more football fans.

Football is not the definition of athletics. Your tirades just look myopic.

Exiled

[formerdukeathlete]

why do you hold harvard out as the model program? it may have the most sports (41) but it certainly doesn't have the best sports. also, what does "Net of league and other TV revenue sharing" exactly mean when you are talking about athletic budgets. that's like a movie theatre talking about net of ticket sales.false. the football team LOSES money. stop living in the fairly world in which reality is suspended and football subsidizes the "olympic" sports. the sport is called men's basketball.

where is this ultimatum coming from? i've never heard any grumblings from acc poobahs that duke better get its act together otherwise duke will be voted off the island. quite the contrary, most of the acc schools readily enjoy the fruits of duke raking in basketball tournament money and ensuring tv coverage (if you are playing duke, the game will be on tv and very well may be on national tv).

The points about Harvard are: Harvard has very little revenue from league or gate receipts, yet it fields 41 varsity sports. Its commitment to varsity sports is across the board and is unequivocal. Yes, like other Ivies, Harvard offers need based aid to athletes. Yet, Havard brings in 30 plus footballers a year, and many others, so that 25% of the undergrad student body are varsity athletes. At Duke we are 10%. Accordingly, at Harvard athletics are more integrated into student life. Harvard does not offer athletic scholarships, yet 65% of its undergraduates receive financial aid. At Duke, we offer athletic scholarships which are paid for mostly by Iron Duke contributions. At Duke we have ACC revenue sharing. Even after all Duke's expenses, which in Harvard's case are not charged the athletic department (such as scholarship financial aid), Duke's athletic programs cost less to operate net of revenues than Harvard's.

Picture a time when after K's retirement Duke basketball is middle of the road in the ACC (no longer contributing much to the league basketball tv contract). Were Football not improved. Were Wade still looking like a high school stadium. Were our gate receipts and Football viewership still so abysmal, well, I think we can get voted out of the ACC. Then, what do we do? Become a Davidson?

As to your assertion that Football loses money - it does not. 2/3rds of ACC revenue sharing is attributable to Football. at least 1/3 of Iron Duke contributions are attributable to Football. Net, net, Football makes a lot of money.

[formerdukeathlete]

And 0 out of 4 are on athletic scholarship - Ivy League schools do not offer athletic scholarships.

Your argument that Harvard unabashedly supports athletics is seriously undermined by the fact that they do not offer scholarships to athletes.

Your arguments, FDA, are just ridiculous - the idea that Duke would need to leave the ACC if it doesn't improve football? Duke, Carolina, NCSU, and Wake are the core of the ACC. Four of the founding schools of the conference. Noone with any sense of hsitory would let any of the four schools leave.

Your tirades just look myopic.

Exiled

Exiled, see my post above in response to Dukie 8. There are not tirades here. A dose of reality: Carolina, Wake and State no longer control the ACC. Revenue is revenue. If Duke is ridiculous in Football still in 5 years and if basketball is no longer tops, there will be pressure for changes in league configuration. Other smallish private schools in the ACC have figured out that it makes ecnominc sense to step it up in Football and they have with success - Wake and Boston College. Getting back to Wade - this is absolutely the worst looking stadium in the ACC. Wake is building the tower. Alumni Stadium at Boston College is pretty well configured already. Duke has to make the improvements. Recruits notice. Fans notice. Our ACC member schools notice. And, the irony is, it would not take that much money to turn Wade into an impressive venue.