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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis

    1, 2, 3, 4, Shaq ain't in the NBA no more!

    God, this makes me feel old:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba...ory?id=6615886

    The career numbers are amazing.

    Does this make Grant the oldest guy in the league, or is there one other? I remember seeing an article that said Grant was third this past year.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  2. #2
    I will miss Shaq and his sense of humor.

    P.S. I met Grant Hill on campus today. He is as nice as everyone says he is. Got to shake his hand, pose for a quick photo. Very exciting for me.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Does this make Grant the oldest guy in the league, or is there one other? I remember seeing an article that said Grant was third this past year.
    I believe Juwan Howard is the oldest player followed by Jason Kidd. Not certain on Kidd, but I know he's up there.
    2003-2004 HLM

    Duke | Mirecourt | Detroit| The U | USA

  4. #4
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    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    God, this makes me feel old:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba...ory?id=6615886

    The career numbers are amazing.

    Does this make Grant the oldest guy in the league, or is there one other? I remember seeing an article that said Grant was third this past year.
    Shaq's got a big ol' but oh yeah!

    0-1 in cameron if I recall
    usa

  5. #5
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    Feb 2007
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    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by blazindw View Post
    I believe Juwan Howard is the oldest player followed by Jason Kidd. Not certain on Kidd, but I know he's up there.
    Per wiki:

    Hill 10/5/72
    Howard 2/7/73
    Kidd 3/23/73

    Shaq 3/6/72

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    I was surprised and impressed that Shaq played as long as he did. He seemed to have a lot of other interests, his legacy was secure, and his ego didn't seem like it would be able to handle his decline in skills, productivity, and importance. But he did, to his credit.

    While there's no denying Shaq's numbers, his impact on the game in the years he played, and his certain and obvious HOF-worthiness, something still bugs me about his game and makes me unable to put him at the same level as Russell, Wilt, and Kareem. As great as an athlete as Shaq was, with his quickness off his feet and his speed for a man his size, he never seemed to me to be a great offensive basketball player, if you know what I mean. He had no touch. No real feel for the ball. He was a good passer, but his shot was so ugly -- and I don't just mean his free throws but his regular shots too, other than dunks of course -- that it somehow colors my evaluation of him. All he did was essentially push or shot-put the ball and then pray.

    Not all great players need to be great shooters. I get that. Just for example, neither Dr. J not Magic were great shooters. Nor were other great big men of the past or present, like Moses Malone, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, or Dwight Howard for example. But they were nevertheless facile with the ball in a way that Shaq never was. Not saying those guys were better overall than Shaq, but his lack of feel for the ball, lack of touch, lack of shooting ability leaves him a notch below the big 3 in my mind.

    What do y'all think?

  7. #7
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    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post

    What do y'all think?
    I think 4 rings speaks for itself....when you're athletic as he is, you don't worry about looking pretty or having 'touch'.....

    half of basketball is skill and the other half is physical attributes....pau gasol is great and looks smooth around the rim....and he has to due to the fact that he's not a freak of nature like shaq is....players fit their games to their bodies....and shaq was pretty darn successful without...he was the 2x scoring champion for pete sakes! Perhaps you've forgotten that his best days were almost 10 years ago, but he averaged something like 28 points a game over the first 12 years of his career

    now do I think he's in the upper echelon of NBA centers? probabably not....but its nearly impossible to compare different eras anyway, but I do think you're being a little overly critical of the best center in the NBA over the last 20 years.....
    usa

  8. #8
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    I think 4 rings speaks for itself....when you're athletic as he is, you don't worry about looking pretty or having 'touch'.....

    half of basketball is skill and the other half is physical attributes....pau gasol is great and looks smooth around the rim....and he has to due to the fact that he's not a freak of nature like shaq is....players fit their games to their bodies....and shaq was pretty darn successful without...he was the 2x scoring champion for pete sakes! Perhaps you've forgotten that his best days were almost 10 years ago, but he averaged something like 28 points a game over the first 12 years of his career

    now do I think he's in the upper echelon of NBA centers? probabably not....but its nearly impossible to compare different eras anyway, but I do think you're being a little overly critical of the best center in the NBA over the last 20 years.....
    It doesn't appear that you read the first part of my post, or that you read the rest of it very closely either.

    I clearly said that Shaq's numbers speak for themselves and he is an obvious Hall of Famer. I acknowledged all of that. Not that rings "speak for themselves" because they don't (how many do Will Perdue and Chuck Nevitt have?) but Shaq's teams won multiple championships and he was a very large part of all of them. Kudos to him for those as well.

    What I'm saying is that Shaq's offensive game depended in large part on brute force rather than on what I consider to be real basketball skills, especially ball skills.

    Strength and power are part of the game. I get that. But that was such a large part of what made him effective -- much larger than Russell and Kareem -- that to me it puts him a notch behind those guys, as well as behind Wilt. Shaq didn't have to develop touch, didn't have to learn how to actually shoot a basketball properly, didn't have to really even learn any reliable post moves because (being aided and abetted by the way the refs call games these days, especially for star players) he just overpowered guys and blew them out of his way, and dunked the ball as violently as possible. Sometimes it seemed that it was more like wrestling than basketball with Shaq.

    While I'm not saying that a guy like Hakeem Olajuwon was a more effective or even a better overall player than Shaq, to me his real basketball skills -- footwork, moves, touch, etc. -- are at a whole different level than were Shaq's. I just can't put Shaq up there on the NBA's Mount Rushmore. Clear, obvious Hall of Famer, yes. Elite of the elite? No.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    The internet currently.
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    It doesn't appear that you read the first part of my post, or that you read the rest of it very closely either.

    I clearly said that Shaq's numbers speak for themselves and he is an obvious Hall of Famer. I acknowledged all of that. Not that rings "speak for themselves" because they don't (how many do Will Perdue and Chuck Nevitt have?) but Shaq's teams won multiple championships and he was a very large part of all of them. Kudos to him for those as well.

    What I'm saying is that Shaq's offensive game depended in large part on brute force rather than on what I consider to be real basketball skills, especially ball skills.

    Strength and power are part of the game. I get that. But that was such a large part of what made him effective -- much larger than Russell and Kareem -- that to me it puts him a notch behind those guys, as well as behind Wilt. Shaq didn't have to develop touch, didn't have to learn how to actually shoot a basketball properly, didn't have to really even learn any reliable post moves because (being aided and abetted by the way the refs call games these days, especially for star players) he just overpowered guys and blew them out of his way, and dunked the ball as violently as possible. Sometimes it seemed that it was more like wrestling than basketball with Shaq.

    While I'm not saying that a guy like Hakeem Olajuwon was a more effective or even a better overall player than Shaq, to me his real basketball skills -- footwork, moves, touch, etc. -- are at a whole different level than were Shaq's. I just can't put Shaq up there on the NBA's Mount Rushmore. Clear, obvious Hall of Famer, yes. Elite of the elite? No.
    Common Tommy, Will Purdue & Luc Longley deserved all of their championship rings, they carried Jordan and Pippen in the 90's Combined they have more than Shaq!

    I actually agree with you on this one. My perspective on Shaq is that you can clearly identify his best seasons, 99-00 & second best 00-01. Every other season he either had serious gaps in his game (during the first few years) or he missed a ton of games. Which is not uncommon for a young player to have weaknesses or for a big man to miss games. But to be considered the best of the best he simply needed to have a more consistent career. He just missed too many games and especially early in his career had major skill flaws. It wasn't until mid way through his career that he become an effective passer. For someone of his physical stature he should have been far more dominate and if he'd had that ultimate competitive streak he may have been the GOAT, but he never reached it.

    Having said all of that I loved having Shaq in the NBA. I have been watching pro hoops with an analytical eye since the late 80's and for my mind, Shaq's 99-00 season and Hakeem's 93-94 seasons rank right up there with the best seasons I've seen out of a true center. Maybe one of Duncan's MVP years ranks up there too, but he was a PF and he was never as physically dominate as Shaq.

    Interestingly you bring up Hakeem, I do feel that Hakeem got the absolute most out of his physical gifts and I would say that he and Shaq are equals, albeit Shaq had the physical gifts to have been much better. Either way, both are significantly better than Robinson or Ewing.

    It's hard to place him in history because we sometimes look at what Shaq could have been rather than what he was, which was the most dominate physical force in the game for almost a 10+ year period. If I were to create a list he would certainly be in the top 5 centers of all-time, but not in the top 3. Just my opinion.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...onealsh01.html

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Talking Kurt Thomas Edges Grant

    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Does this make Grant the oldest guy in the league, or is there one other? I remember seeing an article that said Grant was third this past year.
    Kurt Thomas is now the oldest, if he returns to the league. He is one day older than Grant Hill. Here's the dope.

    sagegrouse

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Kurt Thomas is now the oldest, if he returns to the league. He is one day older than Grant Hill. Here's the dope.

    sagegrouse
    No reason he shouldn't. He seems to always be a solid contributor and effective big defender.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I was surprised and impressed that Shaq played as long as he did. He seemed to have a lot of other interests, his legacy was secure, and his ego didn't seem like it would be able to handle his decline in skills, productivity, and importance. But he did, to his credit.

    While there's no denying Shaq's numbers, his impact on the game in the years he played, and his certain and obvious HOF-worthiness, something still bugs me about his game and makes me unable to put him at the same level as Russell, Wilt, and Kareem. As great as an athlete as Shaq was, with his quickness off his feet and his speed for a man his size, he never seemed to me to be a great offensive basketball player, if you know what I mean. He had no touch. No real feel for the ball. He was a good passer, but his shot was so ugly -- and I don't just mean his free throws but his regular shots too, other than dunks of course -- that it somehow colors my evaluation of him. All he did was essentially push or shot-put the ball and then pray.

    Not all great players need to be great shooters. I get that. Just for example, neither Dr. J not Magic were great shooters. Nor were other great big men of the past or present, like Moses Malone, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, or Dwight Howard for example. But they were nevertheless facile with the ball in a way that Shaq never was. Not saying those guys were better overall than Shaq, but his lack of feel for the ball, lack of touch, lack of shooting ability leaves him a notch below the big 3 in my mind.

    What do y'all think?
    I would agree that Shaq should be below Russell, Kareem and Wilt. Shaq could have been right there with them had he showed up in shape for training camp every summer. But he did not. He also could have been right there in the top 5 all time if he had touch - free throws and a go-to baby hook. But he did not.

    So he will settle for 5th all time in scoring, 4 rings, 3 Finals mvps, 1 regular season mvp and the most dominant game in league history. When he wanted it, no one stopped him. He would have broken Wilt.

    I love him for his larger than life personality and for having fun. I do wish he had a little more of the competitive juices though because watching Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon and others get dunked on would have been cool.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC

    Greatest Shaq Nickname?

    We may need to do a poll:

    Diesel
    Superman
    The Big Baryshnykov
    The Big Cactus
    Shaqtus
    Shaq Fu
    Wilt Chamberneezy
    The Big Aristotle
    The Black Tornado

    Please add what I've missed!

    Super "RIP all those rims Shaq destroyed" Dave

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Near Cameron & Wallace Wade Stadium
    Hearing yesterday on Sports Radio, that Shaq tweeted "He Might Retire", made me a little sad. Where did that 19 years go? I remember when Shaq went to play for the DeVos family owned Orlando Magic. I still have a tee shirt with Shaq's handprint on it.

    Where does someone like Shaq buy their clothes? Not Big and Tall, because he was Bigger and Taller!

    I will miss his sense of humor, that he added to the NBA sport. But I know, he will see him again. Would love to see Shaq and Sir Charles commentating at the same time. Those two would be like Laurel and Hardy or Lucy and Ethyl.

    Gonna miss that big guy. But a retirement from NBA, well deserved!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    It doesn't appear that you read the first part of my post, or that you read the rest of it very closely either.

    I clearly said that Shaq's numbers speak for themselves and he is an obvious Hall of Famer. I acknowledged all of that. Not that rings "speak for themselves" because they don't (how many do Will Perdue and Chuck Nevitt have?) but Shaq's teams won multiple championships and he was a very large part of all of them. Kudos to him for those as well.

    What I'm saying is that Shaq's offensive game depended in large part on brute force rather than on what I consider to be real basketball skills, especially ball skills.

    Strength and power are part of the game. I get that. But that was such a large part of what made him effective -- much larger than Russell and Kareem -- that to me it puts him a notch behind those guys, as well as behind Wilt. Shaq didn't have to develop touch, didn't have to learn how to actually shoot a basketball properly, didn't have to really even learn any reliable post moves because (being aided and abetted by the way the refs call games these days, especially for star players) he just overpowered guys and blew them out of his way, and dunked the ball as violently as possible. Sometimes it seemed that it was more like wrestling than basketball with Shaq.

    While I'm not saying that a guy like Hakeem Olajuwon was a more effective or even a better overall player than Shaq, to me his real basketball skills -- footwork, moves, touch, etc. -- are at a whole different level than were Shaq's. I just can't put Shaq up there on the NBA's Mount Rushmore. Clear, obvious Hall of Famer, yes. Elite of the elite? No.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/comme...=wilbon/110601

    Wilbon makes my points better than I could. If "gaps in his offensive game" gives him as many points as he scored from 92 to 03.....I'll take gaps from any player on any team.
    usa

  16. #16

    Dr. Shaq

    "With his basketball career behind him, O'Neal said he has a lot of things to fall back on, including pursuing his doctorate in human resource development at Barry University in Miami."

    "If all goes well, I will be Dr. Shaquille O'Neal in December or January."

    Now that's impressive!

  17. #17
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    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    I agree with Tommy on this one. We all know what it's like to play against someone who's just bigger and stronger than you and there's nothing you can do about it. I imagine that's where some of the dislike that some people have for Shaq comes from. I do think that if he had committed himself to basketball more fully - stayed in shape, refined his skills, and worked on his free throws - that he could have been the best center of all time. But as it is he's still in the top five and he seems content with that.

  18. #18
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    Feb 2007
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    Sterling, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    So he will settle for 5th all time in scoring, 4 rings, 3 Finals mvps, 1 regular season mvp and the most dominant game in league history. When he wanted it, no one stopped him. He would have broken Wilt.
    Though he'll be bumped to 6th all-time scoring by the end of next season, most likely, right?

  19. #19
    Im going to warn you guys off the bat that I'm a nostalgic Shaq apologist, so I'm bound to come off as argumentative here. But I mean no disrespect to anyone and just like talking hoops.

    Shaq made 58% of his shots. In his career. That's second all-time. If you're going to tell me he needed a midrange game or a jump hook or something to reach the next level in terms of an all-timer, I'm going to tell you he got along just fine with what he was doing. Why dilute the best pure power game in the history of basketball? A jump hook worked just fine for Kareem, at 7-2, 220. But Shaq is 7-1, 330 -- I'm not going to dock him on the all-time list for not shooting a hook. I realize it was frustrating at times to watch guys bounce off Shaq, unable to stop him in any way, but how is that Shaq's fault any more than a guy blessed with a rocket right arm who can blow a fastball by someone? And don't forget, when Shaq came in the league and was immediately holding his own against Ewing, Olajuwon and David Robinson, he was built kind of like Chris Webber in terms of body type -- lean, mean and powerful. It was only later that he added a ton of mass, by design (and also by buffet, but still).

    Note also that Shaq shot a higher free-throw percentage than Wilt, though that was kind of by default. Wilt was a much better passer. Wilt also averaged 50 points a game one season, though I would contend he was leveraging his natural athletic gifts in much the same way Shaquille did, and in an era that contained less physicality.

    Kareem's a tough call. They're close, both are phenomenal scorers with longevity. Kareem was a more decorated defender. If you want to definitively put Russell over Shaq, I can dig it. It really depends on your preference. Russell was arguably the greatest defensive player in the history of the game and no slouch offensively. He never scored 20 ppg in a season, though he was on those loaded teams, so it's not like he had to carry the mail. Shaquille, on the other hand, was just a ridiculously focused and powerful offensive player, one of the best we've seen, and not bereft on defense either. (Three times 2nd-team all defense)

    You can put those other guys over Shaq if you'd like, but I don't think you can say he's not in the running. He dominated his era in certain ways just as much as any of those golden-era centers. At least to me.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Decatur, GA
    Shows how much I follow (care about) the NBA, cuz when I saw the headlines in this morning's paper about Shaq's retirement, my first thought was, "he's still playing? I didn't know that"

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