2014 Basketball Recruiting thread

[wilko]

I have to completely disagree with you. IMO, while I don't think that Coach K's presence with Team USA violates anything, it does give Coach K an advantage in recruiting. Everyone on this forum thinks so (how can a picture with 12 gold medals around your neck surrounded by Lebron, Kobe, and Dwayne not help you recruit?).

It don't hurt, but then I'm not sure how much it helps either... A picture is nice, but its not the same thing as one of the dudes you noted above saying definitively saying publicly on the record "Son, Duke is the place you need to be"... it doesn't have to be directed at a specific recruit just having that out there to ANY potential prospect...

The association between USA players isn't as close and as strong as I would have hoped it would be as it impacts Dukes recruiting. I would have hoped for more obvious and stronger endorsements of K and Duke.

I would have hoped that we would drawn more international players as well.

But as it is we aint hurting exactly... I just hoped for more...

[jimsumner]

I have to completely disagree with you. IMO, while I don't think that Coach K's presence with Team USA violates anything, it does give Coach K an advantage in recruiting. Everyone on this forum thinks so (how can a picture with 12 gold medals around your neck surrounded by Lebron, Kobe, and Dwayne not help you recruit?).

Dominican Republic isn't a basketball powerhouse. If they can get a solid coach with a great name, like Calipari, then good for them! They need the press and Calipari wants to expand his profile. And if Calipari builds tight connections with a high school who happens to be the best big man in the country? Than so be it. Now, if Calipari coached Team USA and had Julius Randle, Tyus Jones, and Jahill Okafor in his line-up, then yes, that would be a complete violation and a snake-like move. But DR isn't Team USA.

I don't like Calipari, but he is doing everything right on the recruiting end (as long as he's playing within the rules). If the NBA / NCAA allows one-and-dones, then why not use that strategy. In the business world, that is one hell of a strategy.

Well, Krzyzewski isn't recruiting any of these guys. So, not the same thing.

I do see some irony here. When K took over his national-team responsibilities, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. This was going to kill Duke recruiting, just kill it. It was going to wear him out, he wasn't going to be able to go to camps, scout the AAU circuit. Doom and gloom.

Now, it's an unalloyed benefit. Interesting.

[ChillinDuke]

I have to completely disagree with you. IMO, while I don't think that Coach K's presence with Team USA violates anything, it does give Coach K an advantage in recruiting. Everyone on this forum thinks so (how can a picture with 12 gold medals around your neck surrounded by Lebron, Kobe, and Dwayne not help you recruit?).

Dominican Republic isn't a basketball powerhouse. If they can get a solid coach with a great name, like Calipari, then good for them! They need the press and Calipari wants to expand his profile. And if Calipari builds tight connections with a high school who happens to be the best big man in the country? Than so be it. Now, if Calipari coached Team USA and had Julius Randle, Tyus Jones, and Jahill Okafor in his line-up, then yes, that would be a complete violation and a snake-like move. But DR isn't Team USA.

I don't like Calipari, but he is doing everything right on the recruiting end (as long as he's playing within the rules). If the NBA / NCAA allows one-and-dones, then why not use that strategy. In the business world, that is one hell of a strategy.

To me, there is a key difference between the two. (And again, I'm not saying there is a violation. Clearly, there is not by the letter of the law.)

With K, he is coaching an Olympic team with no high schoolers and any perceived advantage is indirect in nature. With Cal, he is coaching a high schooler directly. In K's situation, it's a resume builder in the sense that it's just another talking point/example of why you should play for him. With Cal, it's the same thing, but additionally he is developing a direct and undeniable relationship with a high schooler outside of the context of "normal" recruiting (calls, texts, visits, etc).

My point is, as you say above, Coach K's presence with Team USA gives him a suspected advantage in recruiting. However, in this instance, Coach Cal has a tangible, direct advantage in recruiting. A picture is all fine and good and I agree it helps, but Cal is talking with, coaching, traveling with, confiding in this kid.

I don't care what team it is. USA, DR, Azerbaijan, whatever. If you are coaching a high schooler while an active, employed coach of a college team, that would seem to me a direct recruiting advantage and thus something that I would have expected to be prohibited by the spirit of the law.

Again, clearly this is not a recruiting violation of any sort. I'm just not sure why. As I said previously, how is this any different from a college coach moonlighting as an AAU coach? Surely that's not allowed. Is it?

I could certainly be wrong about any/all of this as this topic is not my strong suit.

- Chillin

[Class of '94]

It don't hurt, but then I'm not sure how much it helps either... A picture is nice, but its not the same thing as one of the dudes you noted above saying definitively saying publicly on the record "Son, Duke is the place you need to be"... it doesn't have to be directed at a specific recruit just having that out there to ANY potential prospect...

The association between USA players isn't as close and as strong as I would have hoped it would be as it impacts Dukes recruiting. I would have hoped for more obvious and stronger endorsements of K and Duke.

I would have hoped that we would drawn more international players as well.

But as it is we aint hurting exactly... I just hoped for more...

To be fair, most of the USA/NBA came from college and did not attend Duke. So out of respect for their respective colleges, I get why they may not give Duke a ringing endorsement. That said, K has received an enormous amount of favorable reviews from all of the players (especially, Kobe, Lebron and Chris Paul). Heck, even CP3 said that it was hard for him publicly admit the fact that he loves K because he's a Wake Forest guy. And I think K is very selective when it comes to international players. That said, I too would've loved the USA exposure to have an even greater positive effect for Duke; but as many have pointed out and K, himself has said so as well, guys choose colleges for different reason; and some view college as merely a stop-over as they make their way to the NBA.

[moonpie23]

but those guys ARE giving pretty much a "ringing endorsement"....just about every time a mic goes in their face they're saying great things about K...


the deal is, when you play for k, you play for DUKE AND K....there are some extenuating circumstances that go along with that that some kids just aren't into...

[sagegrouse]

Again, clearly this is not a recruiting violation of any sort. I'm just not sure why. As I said previously, how is this any different from a college coach moonlighting as an AAU coach? Surely that's not allowed. Is it?

I could certainly be wrong about any/all of this as this topic is not my strong suit.

- Chillin

It's not my strong suit either, but let me surmise: Kentucky and Calipari cleared everything about the Olympics with the NCAA. If the NCAA had disapproved, he would not have placed Towns on the team.

If Calipari had wanted to coach an AAU team with prospects on it, Kentucky would have asked the NCAA, which would have said, "Hell no!" And he would not have done it.

It's a regulatory regime with rules that on the surface seem sensible but in detail can be very difficult to understand. All the schools have compliance directors who talk to the NCAA all the time. At Kentucky, it may be every ten minutes -- who knows?

sagegrouse

[Orange&BlackSheep]

My point is, as you say above, Coach K's presence with Team USA gives him a suspected advantage in recruiting. However, in this instance, Coach Cal has a tangible, direct advantage in recruiting. A picture is all fine and good and I agree it helps, but Cal is talking with, coaching, traveling with, confiding in this kid.

- Chillin

The kid also could have discovered what an arse Calipari is and looked elsewhere.

Just sayin'

Orange & Black Sheep

[flyingdutchdevil]

To me, there is a key difference between the two. (And again, I'm not saying there is a violation. Clearly, there is not by the letter of the law.)

With K, he is coaching an Olympic team with no high schoolers and any perceived advantage is indirect in nature. With Cal, he is coaching a high schooler directly. In K's situation, it's a resume builder in the sense that it's just another talking point/example of why you should play for him. With Cal, it's the same thing, but additionally he is developing a direct and undeniable relationship with a high schooler outside of the context of "normal" recruiting (calls, texts, visits, etc).

My point is, as you say above, Coach K's presence with Team USA gives him a suspected advantage in recruiting. However, in this instance, Coach Cal has a tangible, direct advantage in recruiting. A picture is all fine and good and I agree it helps, but Cal is talking with, coaching, traveling with, confiding in this kid.

I don't care what team it is. USA, DR, Azerbaijan, whatever. If you are coaching a high schooler while an active, employed coach of a college team, that would seem to me a direct recruiting advantage and thus something that I would have expected to be prohibited by the spirit of the law.

Again, clearly this is not a recruiting violation of any sort. I'm just not sure why. As I said previously, how is this any different from a college coach moonlighting as an AAU coach? Surely that's not allowed. Is it?

I could certainly be wrong about any/all of this as this topic is not my strong suit.

- Chillin

We merely have to agree to disagree. Scenario: Coach K is born in Toronto. He loves his country. He wants to coach Team Canada. His PG is Nash. Big men are Dalembert and Tristan Thompson. SG is Cory Joseph. But, somehow, the best SF is Andrew Wiggins, a phenom HS player. Canada isn't a basketball powerhouse. Should K not play Wiggins because he has a recruiting advantage in that position? Should K play another player because he thinks it's "fair"? IMO, I would think it's BS not to play the best line-up possible. Coach K had the privilege of coaching the best team with the best players. A lot of teams, DR included, don't have that. Play the best you have. And, if you happen to coach an HSer, then so be it. I hate Kentucky, and I think Calipari is a sleaze bag, but he, IMO, isn't doing anything wrong. Calipari should coach whatever international team he sees fit. Thinking otherwise is putting on your dark blue glasses.

If your saying that no international coach should use HS players, then I think you're wrong. If you're saying that Calipari used the DR job to get HS players, then I think you're being shortsighted and bitter. It's a tactic. DR asked Calipari, Calipari said yes. Not the other way around. Like Coach K coaching Team USA, everyone has their strategy.

And lastly, the AAU coach situation doesn't pertain. Why is Coach K coaching Team USA not moonlighting, but Calipari coaching DR is moonlighting? I really don't get the distinction.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well, Krzyzewski isn't recruiting any of these guys. So, not the same thing.

I do see some irony here. When K took over his national-team responsibilities, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. This was going to kill Duke recruiting, just kill it. It was going to wear him out, he wasn't going to be able to go to camps, scout the AAU circuit. Doom and gloom.

Now, it's an unalloyed benefit. Interesting.

Jim, I love your points, but I am not arguing any of the above. Someone said that Calipari is gaining an advantage. I say, "Okay, so what? Over coaches gain an advantage coaching internationally."

If we feel that Calipari is gaining an advantage because he's coaching a mediocre team that needs to use HS talent to compete, then I argue we're being short-sighted. Coach K didn't, and never will, have that handicap. But don't penalize a coach for coaching a sub-par team and providing a team with publicity. IMO, that's basketball.

[nocilla]

Didn't we have some college coaches working with the FIBA U-18, U-17 national teams? I don't remember there being any concerns then.

For example, take a look at these rosters and their coaches; http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/u18/mu18_2012.html
and http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/u18/mu18_2010.html.

[BD80]

... Scenario: Coach K is born in Toronto. He loves his country. He wants to coach

... If you're saying that Calipari used the DR job to get HS players, then I think you're being shortsighted and bitter. It's a tactic. DR asked Calipari, Calipari said yes. Not the other way around. Like Coach K coaching Team USA, everyone has their strategy. ...

calipari was born in the Dominican Republic? His ONLY connection was a recruit. The DR olympic committee was smart to take advantage of the connection, but calipari is a slimeball to use the situation to his advantage.

The saintly cal jettisoned the team's best player, Charlie Villanueva, to clear playing time for his recruit. How did that benefit the team?

[Skitzle]

calipari was born in the Dominican Republic? His ONLY connection was a recruit. The DR olympic committee was smart to take advantage of the connection, but calipari is a slimeball to use the situation to his advantage.

The saintly cal jettisoned the team's best player, Charlie Villanueva, to clear playing time for his recruit. How did that benefit the team?

Yes, Cal Jettisoned CV for KTowns but CV was NOT the best player, Al Horford was.

[flyingdutchdevil]

calipari was born in the Dominican Republic? His ONLY connection was a recruit. The DR olympic committee was smart to take advantage of the connection, but calipari is a slimeball to use the situation to his advantage.

The saintly cal jettisoned the team's best player, Charlie Villanueva, to clear playing time for his recruit. How did that benefit the team?

I disagree with the notion that you have to be born in a country to be a legitimate coach of that country. Look at international soccer - the vast majority of tier 2 teams and below. Calipari's main motive may have been recruitment, but I'd argue that the DR Olympic team got much more than Calipari (Calipari got one recruit, DR got tons of positive publicity).

I didn't know that about Charlie V. I just googled it and saw that he was cut for being overweight. No idea of the legitimacy behind this. But, in all fairness, this is Charlie V - a squirrel would probably get playing time over him!

[ChillinDuke]

Completely fine to disagree. And please do not take this post as anything more than furthering the conversation.

We merely have to agree to disagree. Scenario: Coach K is born in Toronto. He loves his country. He wants to coach Team Canada. His PG is Nash. Big men are Dalembert and Tristan Thompson. SG is Cory Joseph. But, somehow, the best SF is Andrew Wiggins, a phenom HS player. Canada isn't a basketball powerhouse. Should K not play Wiggins because he has a recruiting advantage in that position? Should K play another player because he thinks it's "fair"?

I'm not doubting the fairness in Cal playing Towns. I'm not saying he definitively shouldn't have picked Towns to play on DR. That is not and was not my point. My point is that I don't understand how the NCAA didn't say, "Hey Cal, you cannot coach the DR team because it gives you direct and obvious contact with a HS recruit (even regardless of the fact that the recruit has UK in his final 5) and a recruiting advantage that other coaches in the country don't have. You get your 5 calls per week, 10 texts, 1 OV, 1 in-home, etc. You can't coach him." I agree with you that, once Cal and a national team mutually agree on him coaching, he should not be barred from choosing and playing the best players. My problem is not with DR, it's with the NCAA rule that clearly allowed this.

IMO, I would think it's BS not to play the best line-up possible. Coach K had the privilege of coaching the best team with the best players. A lot of teams, DR included, don't have that. Play the best you have. And, if you happen to coach an HSer, then so be it.

This is in no way related to my point and is more or less a fact, how can I disagree? Again, my problem is not with Cal's selection or usage of his team. He should have free reign once given the reigns. He should not have free reign over the NCAA just because he got a gig as a national coach. No way. Not K, not Cal, not any college coach. Doesn't work like that. Olympic Teams do not supersede the NCAA. They are independent entities, at least I would assume. Coaching the DR doesn't suddenly absolve you of following NCAA recruiting rules.

I hate Kentucky, and I think Calipari is a sleaze bag, but he, IMO, isn't doing anything wrong. Calipari should coach whatever international team he sees fit. Thinking otherwise is putting on your dark blue glasses.

Agreed. As I've stated many times, he has committed no violation. And as Sage pointed out, I'm sure UK cleared all this with the NCAA - hence, no violation. But I'm still unclear as to why this is not a violation. And the (supposed) fact that Towns was one of the best DR players and thus selected for his national team still does not explain why it's not a violation. Again, the events are independent.

If your saying that no international coach should use HS players, then I think you're wrong.

I'm not saying this.

If you're saying that Calipari used the DR job to get HS players, then I think you're being shortsighted and bitter. It's a tactic. DR asked Calipari, Calipari said yes. Not the other way around. Like Coach K coaching Team USA, everyone has their strategy.

I am not sayin' this. Just sayin' this: It's certainly fishy that Calipari, who I have never heard has any tie to the DR, was asked to coach a DR team with the #1 sophomore in the country being a viable option to play for them. Coincidence? I think any reasonable person would find this to be a very unlikely coincidence. Possible? Of course. Unlikely? Absolutely.

And lastly, the AAU coach situation doesn't pertain. Why is Coach K coaching Team USA not moonlighting, but Calipari coaching DR is moonlighting? I really don't get the distinction.

Because there is no conflict of interest in K's case. Generally speaking, college coaches are free to do as they choose so long as there is no conflict with the NCAA regarding the recruitment of HS players. As soon as something pops up that can be even remotely construed as a conflict (see: Shabazz Muhammed getting a trip paid for by a family friend, presumably pre-cleared by the NCAA), it impacts the player's eligibility and prompts an NCAA investigation. In Cal's case there is a clear conflict. His responsibility to select and coach the DR team to the highest level of ability/competition possible does not, and should not, absolve him of his responsibility to the NCAA to recruit HS players according to the spirit of the law (meaning no improper recruiting).

According to the letter of the law, and as Sage alluded to regarding the confusing details of NCAA rules, this is not improper recruiting. But I still don't understand (and likely never will) why.

- Chillin

[wilko]

but those guys ARE giving pretty much a "ringing endorsement"....just about every time a mic goes in their face they're saying great things about K...

the deal is, when you play for k, you play for DUKE AND K....there are some extenuating circumstances that go along with that that some kids just aren't into...

In the same vein of Carlins theory on profanity "If you think 4 letter words have lost their shock value, you just aren't using enough of them" kinda the same with statements to positively impact recruiting.

Profuse and numerous enough to negate those "extenuating circumstances" to get them into it...

I didnt say the USA players have nothing good to say... it just hasn't had the distinct tangible impact I had hoped it would. Maybe it has and I cant see it...

[ChillinDuke]

calipari was born in the Dominican Republic? His ONLY connection was a recruit. The DR olympic committee was smart to take advantage of the connection, but calipari is a slimeball to use the situation to his advantage.

The saintly cal jettisoned the team's best player, Charlie Villanueva, to clear playing time for his recruit. How did that benefit the team?

I didn't know this either.

6'11" 27 year-old Charlie just must not have been able to keep up with 6'11" 33 year-old Josh Asselin of Michigan Wolverine fame. The type of fame that came from his 9.6ppg/6.0rpg senior season, saw him undrafted, and currently plays for 1-9 Assignia Manresa in the Spanish league (last place in the league table). Josh does rack up 10ppg and 3+ rpg.

- Chillin

[jimsumner]

Jim, I love your points, but I am not arguing any of the above. Someone said that Calipari is gaining an advantage. I say, "Okay, so what? Over coaches gain an advantage coaching internationally."

If we feel that Calipari is gaining an advantage because he's coaching a mediocre team that needs to use HS talent to compete, then I argue we're being short-sighted. Coach K didn't, and never will, have that handicap. But don't penalize a coach for coaching a sub-par team and providing a team with publicity. IMO, that's basketball.

There's a difference between a college coach coaching an international team that includes high-school players said coach might recruit and a college coach coaching an international team that consists of professional players he cannot recruit.

This seems to me to be a significant difference.

[flyingdutchdevil]

There's a difference between a college coach coaching an international team that includes high-school players said coach might recruit and a college coach coaching an international team that consists of professional players he cannot recruit.

This seems to me to be a significant difference.

So what's the solution? If DR cannot get NBA coaches to help out (which I assume such a low profile team cannot), who should they look to? I feel that college coaches are the next best thing.

[Billy Dat]

Didn't we have some college coaches working with the FIBA U-18, U-17 national teams? I don't remember there being any concerns then.

For example, take a look at these rosters and their coaches; http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/u18/mu18_2012.html
and http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/u18/mu18_2010.html.

Great call, I was thinking the same thing. Billy Donovan, Mark Few and Shaka Smart had prime access to these players, including undecideds like Julius Randle. How is it any different than Calipari and the DR National Team?

[ChillinDuke]

So what's the solution? If DR cannot get NBA coaches to help out (which I assume such a low profile team cannot), who should they look to? I feel that college coaches are the next best thing.

The problem is not with DR. DR can do as they see fit to improve their "profile" or publicity or competitiveness. Whatever.

The problem is with Cal / the NCAA. There is a conflict of interest in letting a college coach recruit and coach the same player. It is a clear conflict in my mind, not so in the rules.

DR is not subject to these rules. Cal and Kentucky are.

- Chillin