reading this made me think that maybe it won't be all fuzzy fuzzy cute cute for UNC after all......
"Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"
Do not expect anything but stupidity and inconsistency from the NCAA.
Cam Newton's Dad shops him around and the NCAA basically does nothing.
The NCAA does step in to keep an American Idol contestant from being recruited by NC State.
UConn breaks the rules and the NCAA takes away scholarships that would probably have either not used or given to walk ons.
Outsiders give benefits to Reggie Bush and his family. None of the outsiders are connected to USC and USC gets nothing from the deal. USC gets completely hammered by the NCAA.
The NCAA comes up with a rule that says players suspensions can start after bowl games. So if two players are guilty of the same infraction and one is a senior and other a soph then I guess the senior either misses the bowl game or gets the penalty. The soph gets to play in the bowl game.
1. Is UNC cooperating with the NCAA and bowing down at every opportunity?
If so, good chance that they get a light penalty.
2. Is there any way that the NCAA can construe that UNC is lying to them?
If so, heavy penalty.
3. How important to ESPN is UNC football? The greater the importance the lighter the penalty.
I think I am about to turn this into a general "NCAA sanctions for football programs" thread, but I was about to post this elsewhere and figured it might fit better in this thread...
The guys on Sportsradio today in Atlanta were talking seriously about the Death Penalty for Ohio State. In case you have not heard, the latest is that a former wide receiver Ray Small did an interview where he admitted to selling tons of Ohio State memorabilia and said players basically did not care about NCAA rules. He says they got extra benefits all over the place, including deals on cars--
I can't imagine how Jim Tressel still has a job after what has come out about him and the Pryor/memorabilia mess. The full story now appears to be that Tressel was emailed by a former Ohio State player in April of 2010 and told about the investigation into the players selling memorabilia. Tressel forwarded those emails to Terrell Pryor's mentor but never told anyone at Ohio State about it and even signed documents in September saying he did not know of anything that would be a potential violation. When he was initially confronted about it, Tressel denied knowing many details about the investigation and said he had only heard "general rumors." He did not mention the emails he had gotten and forwarded to Pryor's camp. Ohio State and the NCAA only found out about the emails when they were doing a public records search of Tressel's communications -- it was only when he was confronted with the actual emails that he admitted to knowing specific details about the memorabilia sales and the invstigation into them."We had four Big Ten rings," he said. "There was enough to go around."
"It was definitely the deals on the cars. I don't see why it's a big deal," said Small, who identified Jack Maxton Chevrolet as the players' main resource.
The Columbus Dispatch reported on May 7 that OSU was investigating more than 50 transactions between OSU athletes and their families and Jack Maxton Chevrolet or Auto Direct.
Are you kidding me?!!? How can this guy still have his job?!?! Is there any possible defense for all this?!?!
It is worth noting at this point that the admission by Ray Small involves a period of time when Ohio State was already on probation, which is why the Sportstalk guys said the Death Penalty was an appropriate penalty. The Columbus Dispatch is all over the allegations of football players getting cars a bit too cheaply --
Popular football blog, With Leather, wrote this a couple weeks ago-- Ohio State Football Takes A Big Leap Toward Death RowPublic records show that in 2009, a 2-year-old Chrysler 300 with less than 20,000 miles was titled to then-sophomore linebacker Thaddeus Gibson. Documents show the purchase price as $0.
--Jason "I don't think OSU is getting the Death Penalty... but this is a really serious situation" EvansBuckeyes are giving us an argument to bring the NCAA’s death penalty–a one-year ban from competition–back to Division I football for the first time since Texas’s Southern Methodist got the chair in 1987.
If both this and the “Tat Five” investigations are determined by the NCAA to be major violations, Ohio State would be slapped with the “repeat violator” label, placing the football program within the proper criteria for such a ban.
I believe Tressel's defense (at least to Ohio State) is his record against Michigan for the last decade. It is ok to cheat as long as you win!
I'll go out on a very short limb and predict that Jim Tressel will not survive the summer as OSU's coach. He may not make it to Memorial Day, much less Independence Day.
Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!
Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
9F 9F 9F
However, I think you really misrepresent things here a bit Jason. Its not like Tressel or even OSU was out there hooking players up with tats or cars or telling them to go sell their rings. See... you're leaving out some pretty important quotes from the Small story (sorry I don't know how to do the HTML stuff to get this in the post as a quote from the article).
"Malcolm Jenkins, who played cornerback for OSU from 2005-2008, said the tattoo violation was overblown.
"The tattoo thing is whatever. It's not that big of a deal, but it's one of the dumb rules that the NCAA has," Jenkins told The Lantern on Wednesday. "I don't see what advantage getting free tattoos has to a university to be a violation, but it's whatever. It's in the rules, so it's whatever."
Small said he isn't surprised players couldn't resist the temptation of discounted tattoos.
"If you go in and try to get a tattoo, and somebody is like ‘Do you want 50 percent off this tattoo?' You're going to say, ‘Heck yeah,'" Small said.
Small spent much of his four years at OSU in Tressel's doghouse.
"When I was in college, in my opinion, I was the bad guy," Small said. "I mean I knew that I was being the bad guy. I had took on that role."
Small said the allure of deals and discounts overshadows the rules education that the athletic department's compliance office provides.
"They explain the rules to you, but as a kid you're not really listening to all of them rules," Small said. "You go out and you just, people show you so much love, you don't even think about the rules. You're just like ‘Ah man, it's cool.' You take it, and next thing you know the NCAA is down your back."
Jenkins said the athletic department makes a concerted effort to prevent such scenarios, but not all players follow instruction.
"What the players go out and do on their own time and make their own decisions is on them," Jenkins said. "I know (the compliance department) puts things in place to give us knowledge of the rules, give us education on how to deal with those situations, but what the players do with that is another story."
So really... what the hell is OSU supposed to do? I mean, clearly they need to be recruiting kids with better character, but people are going to do what they want to do. Kids are going to do what they want to do. Why aren't people up in arms about Gene Chizik still having a job? Anybody with half a brain knows Auburn paid Cam Newton. What about Butch Davis?
To be clear... the stuff with the tats and Vest covering it up and emailing Pryor's "advisor" or whatever that guy is is terrible and wrong and he should pay the penalty, but to sit there and say that these coaches need to control what 100 kids do every day at every hour is unrealistic.
Car dealerships are not giving away cars for free; there has to be boosters making those payments. Powerful boosters at any university are not strangers to one another. I.e., this crap doesn't just happen in a vacuum --- there's either a culture of cheating or there's not. It's not just on the coaches. It's probably more the responsibility of the athletic department as a whole and the alumni organizations. But, as it turns out, firing the coach is a good way of assigning responsibility and moving on. Tressel probably knew quite a lot but was happy to land top five recruiting classes and not ask too many questions...
As another Ohio State fan (born at OSU hospital for crying out loud), I've got plenty of issues with what's gone on as well. Just for the sake of accuracy, though, the Thaddeus Gibson car thing was a case of poor journalism:
Unless something new comes out, Tressel's not going anywhere and OSU is not getting the death penalty.
The car situation appears to be overblown: guys were getting used Dodge Chargers at prices that do not appear to have been distinguishable from what the average joe would have been required to pay. Does it sound bad? If it's reported as "OSU players got cars for free!" Absolutely. Did that happen? Nope.
The tattoo situation itself was clearly a violation of NCAA rules. OSU should be punished accordingly.
But none of the players were getting houses (USC) or hundreds of thousands of dollars (Auburn) or undue assistance in coursework or using steroids, etc. Indeed, OSU's team GPA is tops in the Big Ten, the team's GPA has soared under Tressel's tenure, and despite the conspicuous troublemakers (Ray Small, Maurice Clarett), the program has improved drastically in every conceivable way under Tressel, despite what Pat Forde wants to be the case.
Don't take my word for it. Here's what former Duke and Ohio State football player Harrison Twill had to say:
To say that I was sad and beyond disappointed to see a former Buckeye teammate and Ohio native provide false information to a media outlet this week about how he spent his once lifetime opportunity as a member of the Ohio State football team along with the rest of his teammates is an understatement. With all of the current controversy surrounding Ohio State‟s football program, I knew that there would be several players mentioned in numerous articles, but I never thought that someone would make such a regrettable and defaming comment as did Ray Small. I personally witnessed countless moments when Jim Tressel supported Ray Small in times of adversity when others were prepared to throw him under the bus. I cannot comprehend the lack of appreciation for the man who is Jim Tressel – who would do anything to ensure his athletes get an education and have an impact on his student athletes‟ lives.
My experience of being a student athlete for Jim Tressel was a very unique road that not many have traveled. My parents made every possible sacrifice to provide my brothers and myself with the best education possible with no ceiling above our heads. This mindset is significant and is part of our tradition of having the privilege of living in America. There are so many who do not have the ability to live in a free country and chase their dreams with no regrets.
After graduating from high school, I earned the once in a lifetime opportunity to attend Duke University. At Duke, I lettered in football and track & field, and was named to the Atlantic Coast Conference Academic Honor Roll for maintaining a 3.24 grade point average. After my Redshirt Sophomore seasons in football and track & field, it was brought to my attention by a mentor of mine that I was in a position to graduate with my undergraduate degree in three years. More importantly, there was an NCAA rule that allowed student athletes who graduated early with their undergraduate degree to attend a different division one University retaining all of their remaining athletic eligibility, as long as the student athlete pursued a graduate school degree that was not offered at the previous university.
After receiving my release from Duke University to contact other schools, I met with football coaches from Stanford, Northwestern, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Ohio State. After meeting Jim Tressel on my official visit to Ohio State, he was by far the most honest, ethical, and open minded coach I encountered on my journey and my decision was made. Almost every division one football coach that I spoke to during this time period had never heard of this NCAA rule and would not give me a chance. Jim Tressel saw something in me and gave me the opportunity to accomplish my childhood dream of playing football for The Ohio State University.
After graduating from Duke University in the Summer of 2005, I moved to Columbus, Ohio to start summer workouts and my matriculation of coursework in the Masters of Labor and Human Resource Management program at the Fisher College of Business. All of my teammates at Ohio State; black, white, latino, and arabic reminded me of an army that would go to war and compete against each other every single day for the best coach in college football. I will never forget the work ethic and the commitment that AJ Hawk dedicated to Jim Tressel at our 5:30 a.m. workouts. I will always remember Anthony Gonzalez being interviewed as a potential Rhodes Scholar. I will always cherish the experience of competing in collegiate athletics as a graduate school student with Stan White II and Brandon Mitchell. Most importantly, I am a better person because I had the opportunity to learn about life from Jim Tressel.
It is insulting and ignorant to suggest that men like AJ Hawk (NFL), Bobby Carpenter (NFL), Justin Zwick (Medical Sales), Anthony Gonzalez (NFL), Stan White II (Investment Banker), Rob Sims (NFL), Jay Richardson (NFL), Malcolm Jenkins (NFL), and many others “sold memorabilia for cash” and received improper benefits while being a member of the Ohio State football team. To say that “everyone was doing it” just because Ray Small says so, is ludicrous. All of the former Buckeye players are extremely proud to say that they played for Jim Tressel because of the obvious influence he had on our lives both on and off the field.
The opportunity to accomplish my childhood dream of running out of the tunnel in Ohio Stadium, to receive a Masters Degree from The Ohio State University and to maintain lifelong friendships that I made in my two years on the team will be cherished forever. The many Ohio State alumni that I have been privileged to meet over the years are a constant reminder of how special my two big ten championship rings and my two pairs of gold pants are.
Jim Tressel gave Ray Small the opportunity to receive a free education and then use that education to improve his life and to help others who need assistance. After being mentored by the legendary Ted Ginn Senior of the Ginn Academy Charter School and the Glenville Football program; a man who has made a difference in so many peoples‟ lives, it is apparent that Ray does not understand and never did grasp his place in the World.
Part of being an adult in this World is making decisions every day and then dealing with the consequences of those decisions. If someone offers you money for a Big Ten championship ring or a car deal that violates the NCAA rules, you have the option of saying yes or no. In the grand scheme of life, there is no one forcing you to break the rules and the most successful people will embrace adversity and grow from experience.
Obviously, I am proud of my Ohio State championships, my Masters degree, and all of my Student Athlete teammates that I had the privilege to practice and play with. Most importantly, I am proud of the relationship that I still maintain with Jim Tressel and that we never lost to Michigan. Nevertheless, I pray that Ray Small may be able to one day restore the bond he has shattered with the Ohio State family and most importantly, I wish him good luck with his journey in life and certainly hope that he can one day be as proud of his family and accomplishments as the student athletes that I am.
Merrill Lynch (San Diego, California)
The Ohio State University'07
Coaches should be held accountable for their own action. Tressel learned of a potential NCAA violation and chose not to report it. I don't see how a responsible institution can continue to employ him as a college football coach.To be clear... the stuff with the tats and Vest covering it up and emailing Pryor's "advisor" or whatever that guy is is terrible and wrong and he should pay the penalty, but to sit there and say that these coaches need to control what 100 kids do every day at every hour is unrealistic.
But, Tressel lied to the NCAA. What I think is considered the worst offense at USC is that an assistant coach lied to the NCAA. This is the head coach. They may not get the death penalty and The Ohio State University may chose to keep Tressel, who overall has done a great job. But the Buckeyes should get what USC got and more.
I must admit, hearing that the car thing may not be a case of free cars or even steeply discounted ones does seem to make some of the nastiness a bit less nasty.
Still, if they were all getting even mild discounts, it is a clear violation. Just like it is a violation to get tattoos for half-price. The NCAA rules on this kind of stuff are very clear. Most schools are able to operate within these rules (or at least avoid getting caught) so I hardly see how Ohio State could avoid sanctions if any of this stuff happened.
A couple interesting updates --
First of all, Ray Small is now trying to walk back some of his comments, like the "everybody was doing it" statement. Small, who is under attack from pretty much the entire Buckeye nation, says he was misquoted. One problem, The Lantern newspaper that did the interview has all of his comments on tape and has provided audio excerpts of every quote in the article. Oooops, no getting out of this one, Ray.
Meanwhile, on the Cargate front, the car salesman (Aaron Kniffin) who was constantly selling to the OSU team, says the players came to him because the OSU compliance office directed them to his dealership and that all sales were reviewed by the compliance office. But, the OSU director of compliance, Doug ARchie, says that is absurd and that he maybe spoke to Kniffin one time in his life. Ummm, that might not be totally accurate --
The article goes on to say the following --“Doug Archie has called me well over 50 times,” Kniffin said. “This year alone, I’ve talked to him 25-30 times. You can print out your Verizon (phone) bills; his numbers are right there calling me.”
Tressell ain't losing his job anytime soon, I think. The school's president and AD have tied themselves to him pretty closely. Unless something major comes out that we don't already know, Tressell is keeping his job at least through the summer. Ohio State is to appear before the NCAA Committee on Infractions in August. Tressell should be safe through then.The fact that Archie appears to be misrepresenting his relationship with Kniffin is absolutely troubling, though. It's the behavior of someone with something to hide, and the NCAA usually doesn't care much for people who hide information from it. If what Kniffin is describing is true -- that Archie's compliance department checked out Kniffin's dealerships and made sure everything was on the up and up, why on earth wouldn't Archie make that known?
Still, it must be reiterated that Archie had better hope like crazy that the investigation definitively uncovers no wrongdoing, because the alternative is an absolute nightmare for Ohio State. If Kniffin's allegations that Ohio State funneled athletes to these dealerships are correct -- and generally, the first person to offer to produce a paper trail is telling the truth -- and if there are untoward deals being made, then this is a situation where a NCAA member's compliance department is directing its athletes to break NCAA compliance rules, and that would be an outright sham. Still a lot of ifs in that situation... for now.
-Jason "my bottom line-- I am thrilled to not be an OSU fan in all this. If this happened to Duke, I would be heartbroken" Evans
I assure you that as a Buckeye alum and current student, there are many--myself included--who are crestfallen over all this.
Prior to these shenanigans, I had found myself in the unenviable position of being enamored with two of the more unpopular franchises in sport: Duke basketball and Ohio State football. In defending OSU football from Duke fans, and in defending Duke basketball from OSU fans, I took pleasure in drawing the many parallels that exist in how Coach Tressel and how Coach K have operated over the years. (To be sure, there are plenty of distinctions, as well.) Many of the reasons Tressel was maligned prior to this season were identical to the reasons K was maligned.
It is hard, now, to defend Tressel in that same way. Indeed, it would be unfair to Coach K to do so, and dishonest to myself.
What I do know is that, winning aside, Coach Tressel has placed Ohio State football on a path that it was not on prior to his hiring: one of academic achievement, with a considerable decrease in off-field problems and a considerable rise in service-related activities in Central Ohio. There have been plenty of pitfalls, but if Tressel is forced out, the NCAA will be losing one of the good guys in the profession.
The grave error here--Tressel's dishonesty with Ohio State and the NCAA--requires punishment. So, too, does, OSU. Certainly, lying does not set the right example for his players. But this sliver of Tressel's time in Columbus is not indicative of the coach or leader he's been.
I could really care less about wins and losses. I'm much prouder of a program that does things right rather than wrong. If I didn't feel Tressel was the person to run the program the right way, I'd want him out in a second. And though my feelings for him have certainly waned, it remains my hope that he receive a second chance and not be run out of town by the proverbial mob. I don't see that as anything other than a superficial solution.
Southern Cal got hammered because one assistant coach supposedly knew that Bush was getting illegal benefits and did nothing about it. He denied the charge, but there was a five-minute tape of a phone conversation between him and an agent that the NCAA construed as proof that he knew.
In North Carolina's case, we have a far stronger paper trail that assistant head coach and recruiting coordinator John Blake was getting paid by an agent ... and will probably be designated an agent himself when the NCAA finally files its reports.
Let me also add that the NCAA hasn't brushed off the Cam Newton case ... they merely ruled that they did not have the immediate evidence to declare him ineligible. They emphasized at the time that the investigation is on-going.
Understand, the NCAA acts slowly. It took more than two years to nail USC after its transgressions. The UNC case is not likely to come to head until this summer or next fall ... maybe longer. Auburn still faces its day of reckogning.
As for Tressell and his guilt. I find it interesting that after he left, Youngstown State was placed on probation and one of the prime charges were sweetheart deals with local car dealership. And one of the claims that Maurice Claret made when he blew up was that Ohio State arranged for him to get free use of a car. Of course, no one believed him at the time, but now, you've got to wonder.
to me, it's a real shame that the process takes so long. Of course the schools will still be there and their punishment will simply be a chronological delay, but to incoming athletes, the window of opportunity for a group having success is derailed a year, two years, three years down the line by "ancient history"......
it's too bad Thor's hammer is so slow...not so much in the "Norse God sense of Good vs. Evil", but more so in the "NCAA takes it's sweet time" kind of way...
Last edited by moonpie23; 05-28-2011 at 10:45 AM.
"Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"
I'm glad that Tressel has done such an outstanding job of upgrading the academic side of OSU football. I had no idea. I wish other coaches would do the same; then it wouldn't be so difficult for Duke to compete with the other major programs in the ACC and across the country.
Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!
Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
9F 9F 9F