Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 119
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom B. View Post
    Yes and no. Lance is the plaintiff, remember, so his lawyers would have no way of knowing which judge would be assigned to the case until they actually filed it (I presume there's more than one judge in the Austin Division of the Western District of Texas). Some other judges might have let it slide, but they got unlucky and drew the judge who is probably the worst one to get when you file a complaint that's designed more for media consumption than actually giving a "short and plain statement" of your claims.
    Four district judges (two of which are senior status):

    http://www.txwd.uscourts.gov/general...graphylist.asp
    "Enjoy every sandwich" -- Warren Zevon

  2. #62

    Here comes Congress

    A Republican Congressman from Wisconsin is now threatening Congressional investigation of the US Anti-Doping Agency's "conspiracy" against Armstrong:

    http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/sto...g-probe-071212

    The story quotes the USADA as claiming "overwhelming" evidence against Armstrong -- evidence that apparently no one outside the USADA has seen.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Walnut Creek, California
    It's Sensenbrenner. Too bad...I'd have hoped for a more reasonable, sensible Congressman. The PP ban prevents me from commenting further. Even so, he might well be right.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs

    The End

    Lance is giving up. He is not going to fight the USADA any longer.

    If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process, I could confront
    these allegations in a fair setting and - once and for all - put these charges to rest, I
    would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided
    and unfair. Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to
    support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the
    hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around
    the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine.
    Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end,
    USADA will not stand by it?
    His entire statement, linked above, is really worth a read. Incredibly powerful and passionate. I don't know whether he was doping or not, but my understanding of what the USADA has done leaves little question in my mind about who the bad guy is here...

    --Jason "...and it ain't the guy on the bike" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Lance is giving up. He is not going to fight the USADA any longer.



    His entire statement, linked above, is really worth a read. Incredibly powerful and passionate. I don't know whether he was doping or not, but my understanding of what the USADA has done leaves little question in my mind about who the bad guy is here...

    --Jason "...and it ain't the guy on the bike" Evans
    It was just announced on local ABC News that Lance will be stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles. What's the point of testing if passing the test becomes irrelevant in the end. I don't know if he used or not. I just know the best physical evidence we have, and the best testing in the world, indicated that he did not. There is no justice here.

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Lance is giving up. He is not going to fight the USADA any longer.



    His entire statement, linked above, is really worth a read. Incredibly powerful and passionate. I don't know whether he was doping or not, but my understanding of what the USADA has done leaves little question in my mind about who the bad guy is here...

    --Jason "...and it ain't the guy on the bike" Evans
    Did we stop making The Crucible mandatory reading in high school? The guys at USADA probably think the point of the play is that the witches were finally caught and killed.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Lance is giving up. He is not going to fight the USADA any longer.



    His entire statement, linked above, is really worth a read. Incredibly powerful and passionate. I don't know whether he was doping or not, but my understanding of what the USADA has done leaves little question in my mind about who the bad guy is here...

    --Jason "...and it ain't the guy on the bike" Evans
    Lance hasn't quite given up. He's made a play to try and force USADA to allow the UCI to take over the investigation. The full statement is here:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/...ement-on-usada

    The telling paragraph is the last paragraph of the letter from Lance's lawyers to USADA:

    "Finally, you are on notice that if USADA makes any public statement claiming, without jurisdiction, to sanction Mr. Armstrong, or to falsely characterize Mr. Armstrong’s reasons for not requesting an arbitration as anything other than a recognition of UCI jurisdiction and authority, USADA and anyone involved in the making of the statement will be liable."

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    Lance hasn't quite given up. He's made a play to try and force USADA to allow the UCI to take over the investigation. The full statement is here:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/...ement-on-usada

    The telling paragraph is the last paragraph of the letter from Lance's lawyers to USADA:

    "Finally, you are on notice that if USADA makes any public statement claiming, without jurisdiction, to sanction Mr. Armstrong, or to falsely characterize Mr. Armstrong’s reasons for not requesting an arbitration as anything other than a recognition of UCI jurisdiction and authority, USADA and anyone involved in the making of the statement will be liable."
    Given that UCI has previously told USADA to drop its investigation, can we hope that CAS might quickly hear an appeal, rule in UCI's favor, and get USADA on the fast train to extinction?

    I also read (in the NY Times, I think) that the Tour has not stripped victories from other dopers "convicted" after the statute of limitations is up, which could indicate that the first 4 victories might never bee stripped (of course, it's at their discretion to strip the titles anyway - NOT USADA's). USADA is truly standing on their McCarthy-like position of "you're either with me all the time, or you're a cheater."

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Seriously, it is things like this that make you glad we have Due Process protections here in our court systems.

    What a crock this is.
    "Enjoy every sandwich" -- Warren Zevon

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Look, this is a tough one for me. The guy was never caught....and they tested him a ton.

    But.....

    1) Everyone at the time was cheating, and he was still beating them.

    2) He has something like 10 former team members who are willing to testify against him. Sure, most of them already were caught cheating, and earlier said he didn't cheat....but still.

    3) People say that he's not been given due process...but in a court of law if 10 other teammates took the stand and under oath said, "Yep, I saw him cheat, and he had a great system for avoiding being caught" it would be really, really tough to beat that...even if they all did have an axe to grind with you.

    4) By far the most damaging thing to me is actually in his statement. I've read it. Not once does he say, "The fact is, I never doped. Period. Ever. I am 100% innocent and never once cheated at this sport." What he does say is:

    a) there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims

    b) The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced (by far the most damaging to me)

    c) We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules.

    That's not declaring innocence, that's saying "I was never caught." Two very different things.

    Personally, I believe Lance doped. But I also believe everyone else was doping too, and he beat them. He's still the greatest cyclist in the world (had nobody been cheating, he would have won as well).....but he still cheated.

  11. #71
    There's no doubt in my mind that Armstrong cheated. There is just too much smoke, too much circumstantial evidence, and too much violating common sense for him to not have cheated. Things we know:
    1. Armstrong competed in an era of cycling that was notorious for doping. It is quite accepted that a HUGE percentage (probably the majority) of racers were not clean in that era. It is hard to believe that a clean racer could so dominate a sport that is so riddled with drug use.
    2. Armstrong is a cancer survivor. He won his first tour de france less than 3 years after chemo treatment. It is even harder to believe that a clean racer could recover from stage 3 cancer throughout his body to dominate a sport so riddled with drug use.
    3. There have been reports that six of Armstrong's 1999 samples tested positive for EPO in retroactive testing in 2005: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycli...-details_x.htm
    4. There were "suspicious" results "consistent with EPO use" in 2001: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cyclin...ory?id=6614413
    5. The book L.A. Confidential included quotes from one woman who claims to have disposed of syringes for the Armstrong team and another quote from a teammate who said that he, Armstrong, and several other riders doped.
    6. Armstrong was trained throughout his peak by Dr. Michele Ferrari, who has had many doping violations (leading to an eventual ban from cycling).
    7. Several of Armstrong's teammates (some with questionable character, some very well respected) have testified that Armstrong (and his teammates) took PEDs.

    Given the above, I find it really hard to reasonably believe that Armstrong was clean. While there may or may not be enough to legally convict him, there is certainly enough evidence to go beyond common sense (in my opinion).

    That being said, I do disagree with his honors being overturned on the basis of teammates' testimony (which is what appears to be happening unless they have some actual retroactive tests that found evidence). While I'm convinced he cheated, the fact is that he has not officially tested positive. Therefore, it seems inappropriate to strip him of his wins. If he was ahead of the testing system, good for him I guess. Until it is proven that he beat the system, he shouldn't be stripped of his wins.

    And further, I still think what he has done is amazing. Even though I'm convinced he cheated, it is absolutely unbelievable that he was able to beat stage III cancer and return to win 7 Tour de France races (regardless of whether he joined so many others in cheating). It's slightly less miraculous to do it with cheating, but still miraculous. And his work in raising funds for cancer research and treatment is completely commendable. Cheating shouldn't change anyone's opinion that his story is miraculous and his work is amazing.

  12. #72
    Proven of using performance-enhancing drugs with positive tests, try to cover it up/provide a backstory by setting up a fake website - get suspended 1/3 of a season and have all your and your team's records numbers remain in the books. Check.

    No hard proof of doping despite hundreds of drug tests over a decade long-period - stripped of every single title.

    Makes sense to me. Obviously, different spots adhere to different standards.

    Even if Lance did have a positive test in 1998, I don't see why he should be stripped of every single title. I would think a positive test would lead to a ban of a year or two, not five or more. I don't know what really happened, but it does seem a bit like a witch hunt and lack of due process. Seems like resources could be used more productively. And I agree that doping was probably rampant at the time; Lance never having a positive test and winning all those titles is mighty impressive. Innocent until proven guilty in my mind.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    Look, this is a tough one for me. The guy was never caught....and they tested him a ton.

    But.....

    1) Everyone at the time was cheating, and he was still beating them.

    2) He has something like 10 former team members who are willing to testify against him. Sure, most of them already were caught cheating, and earlier said he didn't cheat....but still.

    3) People say that he's not been given due process...but in a court of law if 10 other teammates took the stand and under oath said, "Yep, I saw him cheat, and he had a great system for avoiding being caught" it would be really, really tough to beat that...even if they all did have an axe to grind with you.

    4) By far the most damaging thing to me is actually in his statement. I've read it. Not once does he say, "The fact is, I never doped. Period. Ever. I am 100% innocent and never once cheated at this sport." What he does say is:

    a) there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims

    b) The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced (by far the most damaging to me)

    c) We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules.

    That's not declaring innocence, that's saying "I was never caught." Two very different things.

    Personally, I believe Lance doped. But I also believe everyone else was doping too, and he beat them. He's still the greatest cyclist in the world (had nobody been cheating, he would have won as well).....but he still cheated.
    He has consistently and explicitly denied doping for almost two decades now. That's not saying "I was never caught."

    The statement you say is the most damaging: "when I raced". Who cares what he's done after he retired? Where any of the chemicals he ingested while fighting cancer (and not racing) against the rules of the UCI, WADA, USADA? I think you're making more of that statement than you should.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Proven of using performance-enhancing drugs with positive tests, try to cover it up/provide a backstory by setting up a fake website - get suspended 1/3 of a season and have all your and your team's records numbers remain in the books. Check.

    No hard proof of doping despite hundreds of drug tests over a decade long-period - stripped of every single title.

    Makes sense to me. Obviously, different spots adhere to different standards.

    Interesting comparison. I hadn't gone there until I read your post. But like you said, different sports...

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    Put me on the side that thinks this is an obsessive vendetta by the USADA that has gone waaaay too far.

    What's the point of physical testing when hundreds of tests come out clean, yet some still maintain that doping has gone on?
    Is this sport just totally unable to maintain rules and standards in the present time? Stripping victories from more than a decade ago??

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs
    The USADA is setting a really dangerous precedent here. They have so far refused to show anyone any physical evidence that Lance doped. All they have is the testimony of other riders, most of whom were caught cheating and are being given light or no penalties in exchange for pointing the finger at Lance. It is like catching a bank robber in the act and then letting him go because he says he saw some other guy robbing a bank a while ago.

    So, the USADA is convicting an athlete on nothing but the testimony of rival athletes. I was reading another board and someone said, "so, what happens when Ryan Lochte comes forward in 3 years to say that he saw Michael Phelps doping at the Olympics?" Phelps has a big ego that often rubs rivals the wrong way-- what if some other swimmer with an axe to grind (Tyler Clary doesn't like Phelps) says, "Yeah, I saw it too." Suddenly the USADA would have just as much evidence against Phelps -- all evidence being hearsay -- as they did against Armstrong.

    This is a really dangerous road the USADA is going down.

    -Jason "amazing how few people seem to be siding with the USADA here... they have really lost the PR battle" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    The USADA is setting a really dangerous precedent here. They have so far refused to show anyone any physical evidence that Lance doped. All they have is the testimony of other riders, most of whom were caught cheating and are being given light or no penalties in exchange for pointing the finger at Lance. It is like catching a bank robber in the act and then letting him go because he says he saw some other guy robbing a bank a while ago.

    So, the USADA is convicting an athlete on nothing but the testimony of rival athletes. I was reading another board and someone said, "so, what happens when Ryan Lochte comes forward in 3 years to say that he saw Michael Phelps doping at the Olympics?" Phelps has a big ego that often rubs rivals the wrong way-- what if some other swimmer with an axe to grind (Tyler Clary doesn't like Phelps) says, "Yeah, I saw it too." Suddenly the USADA would have just as much evidence against Phelps -- all evidence being hearsay -- as they did against Armstrong.

    This is a really dangerous road the USADA is going down.

    -Jason "amazing how few people seem to be siding with the USADA here... they have really lost the PR battle" Evans
    Yeah, I think it is important to separate the battle from whether or not one thinks Armstrong cheated. I absolutely think he cheated, but I definitely am against what the USADA is doing.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    The USADA is setting a really dangerous precedent here. They have so far refused to show anyone any physical evidence that Lance doped. All they have is the testimony of other riders, most of whom were caught cheating and are being given light or no penalties in exchange for pointing the finger at Lance. It is like catching a bank robber in the act and then letting him go because he says he saw some other guy robbing a bank a while ago.

    So, the USADA is convicting an athlete on nothing but the testimony of rival athletes. I was reading another board and someone said, "so, what happens when Ryan Lochte comes forward in 3 years to say that he saw Michael Phelps doping at the Olympics?" Phelps has a big ego that often rubs rivals the wrong way-- what if some other swimmer with an axe to grind (Tyler Clary doesn't like Phelps) says, "Yeah, I saw it too." Suddenly the USADA would have just as much evidence against Phelps -- all evidence being hearsay -- as they did against Armstrong.

    This is a really dangerous road the USADA is going down.

    -Jason "amazing how few people seem to be siding with the USADA here... they have really lost the PR battle" Evans
    Hmmm, this could work to our advantage here:

    "I saw Jim Calhoun give Rip Hamilton $10,000 in the summer of 1998."

    Hey, this thing could really work for getting rid of someone / something you don't like.

    Pleas note: Obviously, I didn't witness this purely fake event.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Put me on the side that thinks this is an obsessive vendetta by the USADA that has gone waaaay too far.

    What's the point of physical testing when hundreds of tests come out clean, yet some still maintain that doping has gone on?
    Is this sport just totally unable to maintain rules and standards in the present time? Stripping victories from more than a decade ago??
    To be fair, I don't think this is an issue just for cycling. I think the problem is that the science of cheating is ahead of the science of testing across the board. I mean, baseball probably still has rampant cheating because they don't do blood testing in MLB (or at least, if they now do, they didn't for a very long time). And even blood testing is almost certainly behind the times of the cheaters. There's just more money to be had for cheating than there is to be had for catching cheaters. And as long as that's the case, I suspect there will be plenty more cheating than are getting caught.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Let's say you strip the Jerseys from Armstrong and give them to the second place rider. This gives you as your champs:

    1999 - Alex Zuelle, who was part of the Festina team thrown out of the 1998 Tour de France after team manager Bruno Roussel confessed the existence of "an organized doping system."
    2000 - Jan Ullrich, who has been conviced of doping and was banned for a period of time.
    2001 - Ullrich again.
    2002 -- Joseba Beloki, who was implicated in Operación Puerto and was withdrawn from the Tour de France in 2006.
    2003 - Ullrich again.
    2004 - Andreas Kloeden -- Freiburg Univerity Clinic alleges he used illegal blood transfusions in a subsequent tour.
    2005 - Ivan Basso (2005), who was banned for two years in 2007 for his involvement in Spain's Operation Puerto scandal.

    Well done, USADA.
    "Enjoy every sandwich" -- Warren Zevon

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 64
    Last Post: 01-31-2011, 09:59 PM
  2. The Street Stops Here
    By rthomas in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-17-2011, 02:05 AM
  3. Fighting a speeding ticket
    By BluDevilGal in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-11-2008, 08:49 PM
  4. Lance Armstrong book
    By JStuart in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 06-25-2007, 06:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •