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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Lance Armstrong stops fighting anti-doping allegations

    I've been very neutral up until now about the doping accusations against Lance; is it all unraveling now with Hincapie and others saying it is all true?
    I'll step back and listen.
    JStuart

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by JStuart View Post
    I've been very neutral up until now about the doping accusations against Lance; is it all unraveling now with Hincapie and others saying it is all true?
    I'll step back and listen.
    JStuart
    I have two thoughts on the subject. First is that this is definitely big that Hincapie said it if that is indeed true. So far this is only sources reporting that he said it and I'd like to see actual quotes first. This isn't Jose Canseco we're dealing with. If this is true, this would be like Derek Jeter or Mariano Rivera accusing Andy Pettite (before he admitted it himself). There would only be two people with as much credibility as Hincapie with such an accusation. One is Armstong himself, and the other is Johan Bruyneel.

    My second thought on the subject is that I don't care at all in terms of Armstrong's legacy. This isn't like baseball where a sizable percentage did steroids but many didn't. In cycling, pretty much everyone did/does it. This isn't like there's a bunch of clean racers who finished behind Armstong and deserve the titles more than he does. There have been cyclists who have won before and after Armstrong, as well as several who stood on the podium below him, who have admitted to or have been credibly linked to doping. If Lance Armstrong came out tomorrow and admitted to doping at every tour, I don't think he would be deserving of losing his titles since he beat other dirty riders.

    His place in cycling history is based on what he did against competition of his time. This isn't like baseball where we compare statistics across eras. Eddie Merkx in his day beat a bunch of competition on equal footing (non doping) and Lance Armstrong did the same, except they were all doping.
    Pratt '09
    GO DUKE!

  3. #3
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    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs
    I agree that if the Hincapie report is true -- that he told the Feds about Armstrong doping -- that is a very big deal in terms of whether or not Lance did or did not do something illegal to enhance his performance. It is worth noting that the source making the allegations about Hincapie's testimony is 60 Minutes, which would seem to be a fairly good source. Still, I want to hear Georgie say it with his own mouth or have a prosecutor step forward and talk about Hincapie's testimony (which ain't gonna happen).

    I would add one more thing -- for years Lance's main defense has been that he was "the most tested athlete in history" and he had never failed any of those tests. I found that to be at least mildly convincing seeing as, for a long time, everyone who accused him was someone who had failed a test. I mean, the main basis for the latest 60 Minutes story is an interview with Tyler Hamilton. Tyler failed like 3 or 4 tests over his career, including one when he won the Gold Medal at the Olympics (his medal was not stripped from him at the time because his back-up sample was tainted so the initial positive result could not be confirmed). I still find it at least mildly compelling that Lance never, ever failed a doping test of any kind.

    Are we supposed to think that he had access to drugs or masking agents that Hamilton did not have access to? I know Lance was a huge star in cycling, but Tyler Hamilton was a pretty big name too. I can't imagine there was something Lance could do that Tyler could not. Same with many of the other guys who have been caught -- we are talking about some of the biggest names in the sport. I just can't believe that Armstrong could get away with it for years when Hamilton, Ulrich, Basso, Landis, and so on could not.

    By the way, I have to laugh at how often these guys get caught because someone leaves a syringe behind in a room or car. I mean, come on guys! Just clean up after you get done taking your drugs and you will be fine

    I grow increasingly skeptical of Lance each time one of these stories comes out and we hear about someone else accusing him -- though I find Tyler Hamilton to be less than credible -- but I just can't get past the fact that he has never failed a test. That is an awfully strong argument in his corner, IMO.

    -Jason "I am probably just being naive... but it seems like a dude who battled cancer the way Lance did would be careful about putting foreign stuff in his body" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  4. #4
    I think most informed cycling fans feel similarly to me about this: He was the best of a whole lot of guys who were doping at the time. These stories about Lance doping are as unsurprising as stories that Mark McGwire was doping, because everyone did it at the time. Everyone. He still had to be better than the rest of the guys juicing up on the same stuff. I mean, the EPO they used wasn't even detectable until the end of Lance's streak... but they probably used CERA, the stuff that wasn't detectable until 3 or 4 years ago. They were ahead of the anti-doping curve. Blood doping still isn't detectable. It takes subpoenas and threats of jail time for perjury to get people to admit what really happened. That's why Hamilton and Hincapie have come out and that's why there are reports of it. Lance's story is still amazing to me because almost every single rider he beat at the top of the GC was doping (either proven or highly suspected as of now), as were many teammates, who got caught later. Here's a good list of the podiums and the caught/accused dopers: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/...1999-2008.html

    I will say that Hamilton is not at all credible. Look up his defense for the 2004 Olympic gold medal dope case. His blood showed DNA from 2 different people (some bad blood doping) and he claimed that it was due to chimerism. I mean... really?
    Trinity '11
    Duke University Marching Band 07-11

  5. #5
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    If the Hincape report is true, that closes the book for me.

    Problem is -- are you going to test the second guy on the podium? The third? Because it goes right down the line.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    If the Hincape report is true, that closes the book for me.

    Problem is -- are you going to test the second guy on the podium? The third? Because it goes right down the line.
    Virtually all of those 2nd and 3rd guys on the podiums have been nailed for doping at some point in their careers. I think we can all agree that the absolute worst thing we could say about Lance was that he was the best cheater among a bunch of other cheaters.

    -Jason "
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Virtually all of those 2nd and 3rd guys on the podiums have been nailed for doping at some point in their careers. I think we can all agree that the absolute worst thing we could say about Lance was that he was the best cheater among a bunch of other cheaters.

    -Jason "
    Well, I think you can find a long list of folks who know Lance who could say some worse things. I'm a fan, but he's a lot like Barry Bonds -- you treat folks like @#$# for years, you won't find many to help pad the fall.

    But you're exactly right -- it is part of the sport, and years of efforts have not rid the sport of it.

  8. #8
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    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Well, I think you can find a long list of folks who know Lance who could say some worse things. I'm a fan, but he's a lot like Barry Bonds -- you treat folks like @#$# for years, you won't find many to help pad the fall.

    But you're exactly right -- it is part of the sport, and years of efforts have not rid the sport of it.
    What's the point of drug tests in cycling if Lance can pass hundreds of them, and then is nailed by direct testimony from fellow cyclists?

    I'm not a huge fan of the sport overall, but I love the Tour de France....great scenery, great tradition, the incredible challenge of the mountains, etc.

    Really, would it be better if the cyclists were just allowed to use performance enhancing drugs and procedures? I'm not sure what to think about cycling now.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    If the Hincape report is true, that closes the book for me.

    Problem is -- are you going to test the second guy on the podium? The third? Because it goes right down the line.
    I would agree. Hamilton seemed pretty credible to me tonight on 60 Minutes. It may take awhile, but if proven, Lance and others may ultimately pay a very high price. Prison would seem unlikely, if not possible, as all the facts are finally revealed.

    I feel for the huge number of student-athletes and others that have named Armstrong their or their favorite athlete. Many of us have been inspired by his comeback from cancer and his single-minded focus on becoming the best in his sport. I wonder if he thinks he succeeded.

  10. #10
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    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    In cycling, there are cheaters and there are losers.

  11. #11
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    New York, NY
    Hincapie would seal it for me.

    It doesn't mean, however, that he cheated in the past decade. Weren't most of the accusations from his first victory? It's possible he won the first via cheating and then beat everyone for a long time without cheating.

    Legacy? He's a cheater and liar in my book. Doesn't matter if most others were cheating and lying. It might unfairly taint his other victories, and it might hurt his cancer philanthropy, but he's not been especially gracious to many of his colleagues and he'll join the ranks of those who inspire schadenfreude.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    It doesn't mean, however, that he cheated in the past decade. Weren't most of the accusations from his first victory? It's possible he won the first via cheating and then beat everyone for a long time without cheating.
    I would find this extremely, extremely hard to believe. The notion that someone would cheat (successfully) and win once and then decide to not cheat in the future seems really off to me. If you cheat and get away with it, the idea that you would go back to not cheating just does not occur to most people.

    I might add that if Lance is found to have cheated, it will merely confirm the statement made earlier in the thread-- in cycling you either cheat or you lose. At this point, Lance is sorta the only example out there of a guy who was highly successful as cycling without cheating. It can sorta be argued that, if Lance cheated, he was still playing on a level playing field with everyone else (who were also cheating).

    It is sorta like looking back on a mid-200s matchup of Manny Ramirez vs. Roger Clemens in a game. They were each taking PEDs so they sorta had leveled the playing field against each other.

    Of course, Manny, Roger, and their cheating cohorts were also playing against Greg Maddux, Chipper Jones, and tons of other elite players who were not cheating -- which was unfair.

    -Jason "sometimes I just think we should let sports use drugs all the time" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  13. #13
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    Mar 2008
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    Scrap Metal Hill
    Cycling? Not qualified to offer an opinion.

    Legacy? Mixed.

    On the one hand, his battle against cancer is inspiring and created untold benefits in funding and research.

    On the other hand, kicking your wife and kids to the curb to go sniffing around Sheryl Crow - not so much...

    My nomination for heroic sports figure cancer survivor and class human being would be Mario Lemieux...
    "Quality is not an option!"

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Talking Is Anyone NOT Doping?

    Here's a story linked on NBC Sports/MSNBC that wonders whether there is anyone in the Tour de France not involved in doping. It lists the TdF places on the podium (1-3) for the past 15 years and shows that, of the 21 separate riders who placed, only four have NOT been the subject of doping findings or allegations. List of those supposedly in the clear includes Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans and Carlos Sastre.

    C'est la vie.

    sagegrouse

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Here's a story linked on NBC Sports/MSNBC that wonders whether there is anyone in the Tour de France not involved in doping. It lists the TdF places on the podium (1-3) for the past 15 years and shows that, of the 21 separate riders who placed, only four have NOT been the subject of doping findings or allegations. List of those supposedly in the clear includes Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans and Carlos Sastre.

    C'est la vie.

    sagegrouse
    Does tainted meat count?
    Twerp-free since July 1, 2014.

  16. #16
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    Feb 2007
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    Walnut Creek, California

    DA closing the Lance Armstrong case

    Not entirely clear what the US Attorney's reasoning is; insufficient evidence is most likely.

  17. #17
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    Mar 2008
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    raleigh
    i heard he showed up at a sheryl crow practice session with some songs he'd written...
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  18. #18
    And they allegations are back...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/14/sp...arges.html?hpw

    Lance Armstrong faces new doping charges that could lead to his being stripped of his seven Tour de France titles, according to a letter from the United States Anti-Doping Agency that was sent to Armstrong and several of his former cycling colleagues.

  19. #19
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    I think it's time they give this a rest.
    Twerp-free since July 1, 2014.

  20. #20
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I think it's time they give this a rest.
    Ditto. - sage

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