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  1. #1

    The sad saga of Josh Selby (the one-and-done rule)

    Pat Forde with a great article on the one-and-done phenomenon:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/column...pat&id=6407176

    A question for those who know a lot more about this than I do. It is clear that right now the NCAA has no say in determining when a kid may leave for the NBA. But how does this play out in college baseball? Does MLB have some sort of a "three or none" rule in its CBA, or is it merely frowned upon for a college baseball player to leave after one or two years?

    In any case, I'm with the General on this one: One-and-done has been a disaster for college hoops. Anything the NCAA can do to hone in on kids who have a bona fide interest in a college education would be a huge improvement over the bus stop system we have now. My two cents.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    Pat Forde with a great article on the one-and-done phenomenon:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/column...pat&id=6407176

    A question for those who know a lot more about this than I do. It is clear that right now the NCAA has no say in determining when a kid may leave for the NBA. But how does this play out in college baseball? Does MLB have some sort of a "three or none" rule in its CBA, or is it merely frowned upon for a college baseball player to leave after one or two years?

    In any case, I'm with the General on this one: One-and-done has been a disaster for college hoops. Anything the NCAA can do to hone in on kids who have a bona fide interest in a college education would be a huge improvement over the bus stop system we have now. My two cents.
    Would you prefer the current 'one and done' or a 'three or none' rule. I would prefer the later, but then we may miss out on seeing the likes of D.Rose, K.Durant, G.Oden...K.Irving...A.Rivers (argh)!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    Pat Forde with a great article on the one-and-done phenomenon:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/column...pat&id=6407176

    A question for those who know a lot more about this than I do. It is clear that right now the NCAA has no say in determining when a kid may leave for the NBA. But how does this play out in college baseball? Does MLB have some sort of a "three or none" rule in its CBA, or is it merely frowned upon for a college baseball player to leave after one or two years?

    In any case, I'm with the General on this one: One-and-done has been a disaster for college hoops. Anything the NCAA can do to hone in on kids who have a bona fide interest in a college education would be a huge improvement over the bus stop system we have now. My two cents.
    Players at four-year colleges are eligible after completing their junior years, or after their 21st birthdays.

    And I agree with you that the one-and-done rule is terrible for college basketball. High schoolers should be allowed to go straight to the NBA if they so choose, but if they do go to college, they need to stay for a minimum of 2 years.

  4. #4
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    The sad saga of Josh Selby (the one-and-done rule)

    I have not combed the boards to see if others have linked to this story, but there is a really nice column up on ESPN from Pat Forde (I usually find him detestable, but he does nice work here) that talks about the silliness of Josh Selby being forced to go to college for one year.

    It really is worth a read for the discussion of how going to college ended up hurting Selby more than helping him. But, the part that really struck home with me was the following--

    Selby's failure to finish the spring semester should theoretically hurt the program's Academic Progress Rating, but Self was quoted as saying at the time of Selby's announcement that he "worked with his professors to complete his work for the second semester."

    If that's true -- that a borderline student out of high school was able to finish his semester's work weeks ahead of time without attending class -- then every degree the school has ever granted has been cheapened.
    Color me less than surprised that Kansas has arranged for Selby to pass his classes, even though he is not going to class. Sigh. It is just part of running a big time program these days. Ridiculous.

    Still, the larger point of the article remains -- why do we force kids to go to school who have no interest in being there? Now the NBA is said to be considering a rule that would require players to be in school for 2 years before turning pro. Why?!?!

    What we need is a system similar to baseball -- if you want to turn pro out of high school, fine. But, if you decide to go to school, then really go to school and stick around for 3 years. Please, please, please do this!!

    -Jason "I have been looking around, and most mock drafts now say Selby will go late first or early second round-- shocking he could slip that much" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    What we need is a system similar to baseball -- if you want to turn pro out of high school, fine. But, if you decide to go to school, then really go to school and stick around for 3 years. Please, please, please do this!!
    By the way, at the end of the article, Pat Forde and Bill Self make this very same suggestion about the baseball rule. Just to be clear, I have been advocating this for years. I am no Pat Forde copy-cat

    -Jason
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  6. #6
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    I think the college baseball rule is exactly the model that the NCAA/NBA should adapt. That really makes a player "unpack his bags" and get fully integrated with the college experience. Schools, like Duke, can then put players on a track to graduate in 3 years so that if they consider the draft, they can then do so with a degree.
    Check out the Duke Basketball Roundup!

    2003-2004 HLM
    Duke | Mirecourt | Detroit| The U | USA

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I have not combed the boards to see if others have linked to this story, but there is a really nice column up on ESPN from Pat Forde (I usually find him detestable, but he does nice work here) that talks about the silliness of Josh Selby being forced to go to college for one year.

    It really is worth a read for the discussion of how going to college ended up hurting Selby more than helping him. But, the part that really struck home with me was the following--



    Color me less than surprised that Kansas has arranged for Selby to pass his classes, even though he is not going to class. Sigh. It is just part of running a big time program these days. Ridiculous.

    Still, the larger point of the article remains -- why do we force kids to go to school who have no interest in being there? Now the NBA is said to be considering a rule that would require players to be in school for 2 years before turning pro. Why?!?!

    What we need is a system similar to baseball -- if you want to turn pro out of high school, fine. But, if you decide to go to school, then really go to school and stick around for 3 years. Please, please, please do this!!

    -Jason "I have been looking around, and most mock drafts now say Selby will go late first or early second round-- shocking he could slip that much" Evans
    I don't understand it. Kids in other sports can go pro right out of high school. It shouldn't be any different for basketball players. It is their lives to live. If they make bad choices by leaving out of high school then so be it. This is more about the NBA attempting to protect itself than anything else.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxAMillion View Post
    I don't understand it. Kids in other sports can go pro right out of high school. It shouldn't be any different for basketball players. It is their lives to live. If they make bad choices by leaving out of high school then so be it. This is more about the NBA attempting to protect itself than anything else.
    It's *entirely* about the NBA trying to protect itself. That's why the rule isn't going to change any time soon.

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    Why is it anyone's business to make a player go to college? Why is it anyone's business to tell anyone else they have to get any secondary education? Some of you are very good at trying to run the lives of others.

    It's called paternalism.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxAMillion View Post
    I don't understand it. Kids in other sports can go pro right out of high school. It shouldn't be any different for basketball players. It is their lives to live. If they make bad choices by leaving out of high school then so be it. This is more about the NBA attempting to protect itself than anything else.
    Well, football is actually more restrictive; 3 years from high school to the NFL, and there's not much of a minor league alternative.

    And baseball historically has had an extensive minor league system for young prospects who do not go to college.

    We'll see if there is any change to the current basketball system.

  11. #11
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    Talking I Would Cut the NBA a Little Slack

    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    It's *entirely* about the NBA trying to protect itself. That's why the rule isn't going to change any time soon.
    The NBA has a problem the other leagues don't face.

    Football players, especially the "big boys," are in no way ready to compete in the NFL coming out of high school. Yeah, there are a few 20 YOs who make it, but even 21 YOs are usually not physically mature enough to compete.

    Baseball doesn't put HS players in the majors. Even 3-4 year college players rarely rise to the majors without a couple of years in the minors. The baseball apprenticeship is well-established through the minor leagues.

    The NBA is geared to guys coming out of college -- roster size is limited to 15; publicity is oriented towards players that are already well-known from their college careers; and absent a true minor league, the NBA has no ready-made way to baby sit 18YOs until they are ready for the league. It is reasonable -- and legal -- for the NBA and the players' union to preserve a system where players play some time in college before coming to the league. And the colleges support it as well.

    I also think it is good for the young players to take it one step at a time: dominate HS, star in college, then go to the NBA. And I do think that players who skip steps may ruin their professional careers. And life for an 18YO on an NBA bench or in a hotel ain't so sweet. There are bound to be bad headlines from rich teenagers gone bad.

    Now, could the NCAA develop a minor league system and bypass the colleges totally? You bet, but I think it would be inferior and more costly to the league than a working partnership with the NCAA and the schools. It sure is great to have well-known college players from big-time programs come into the league with built-in recognition and bring their fans with them. And I think players benefit in many ways from time in college -- including, believe it or not, getting an education.

    sagegrouse

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    The NBA has a problem the other leagues don't face.

    Football players, especially the "big boys," are in no way ready to compete in the NFL coming out of high school. Yeah, there are a few 20 YOs who make it, but even 21 YOs are usually not physically mature enough to compete.

    Baseball doesn't put HS players in the majors. Even 3-4 year college players rarely rise to the majors without a couple of years in the minors. The baseball apprenticeship is well-established through the minor leagues.

    The NBA is geared to guys coming out of college -- roster size is limited to 15; publicity is oriented towards players that are already well-known from their college careers; and absent a true minor league, the NBA has no ready-made way to baby sit 18YOs until they are ready for the league. It is reasonable -- and legal -- for the NBA and the players' union to preserve a system where players play some time in college before coming to the league. And the colleges support it as well.

    I also think it is good for the young players to take it one step at a time: dominate HS, star in college, then go to the NBA. And I do think that players who skip steps may ruin their professional careers. And life for an 18YO on an NBA bench or in a hotel ain't so sweet. There are bound to be bad headlines from rich teenagers gone bad.

    Now, could the NCAA develop a minor league system and bypass the colleges totally? You bet, but I think it would be inferior and more costly to the league than a working partnership with the NCAA and the schools. It sure is great to have well-known college players from big-time programs come into the league with built-in recognition and bring their fans with them. And I think players benefit in many ways from time in college -- including, believe it or not, getting an education.

    sagegrouse
    I certainly agree with Sage's analysis. But I would add that basketball players who have no real interest in a bachelor's degree can still get pretty fine coaching in junior/community college for a year or two. These schools often offer many programs which are technical or vocational -- leading to an associate's degree (or not). The NBA will not miss them if they are playing well and have a coach's backing. Those two years will give them at least some maturity that they would not otherwise have had. And, if they don't make it to the League, they might still get to the NDBL or a foreign team.

    Plus, they would have some sort of non-BB skill or education to fall back on.

    I notice that UCLA has just found a recruit at a community college, De'End Parker.

    True, Parker may not be a pro, but consider how a 2-year rule might change the landscape.

    The players not academically college material, and ineligible both because of academics and a two-year rule, would route themselves to community colleges. Afterwards, they get their shot as pros. In the meantime, assuming a baseball-type 3-year rule, the four year schools and their players both benefit because: for the players, their degree and four years of well-coached development; for the schools, the degree and the higher level of play from more mature players. And the quality of the college game improves. It's win-win.

  13. #13
    It's funny with baseball -- usually that sort of thing sorts itself out, in terms of a player's draftability. If a player gets drafted high, he almost always goes pro, unless a team drafts a player they know isn't going to come to save money. If a guy thinks he can improve his stock and signing bonus, like he's a 22nd-round pick or something, he can go to college. You see guys drafted really late all the time, and then three years later they're a first- or second-round pick.

    It's sort of the opposite in basketball, where a lot of the time, a guy can actually hurt his stock simply by showing up and exposing holes in his game or whatever, like Selby, if you're hellbent on only staying a year. I think an instant entry or two mandatory years sounds about right.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I also think it is good for the young players to take it one step at a time: dominate HS, star in college, then go to the NBA. And I do think that players who skip steps may ruin their professional careers. And life for an 18YO on an NBA bench or in a hotel ain't so sweet. There are bound to be bad headlines from rich teenagers gone bad.
    It varies a lot. There are players that have come out of high school and been dominating. Admittedly, their games have weaknesses that a few years of college could have helped (LeBron would've benefited from gaining both some post-up moves and some better perimeter play - his 3FG% is awful, Dwight Howard's offensive post moves have been weak until this season, Kobe just wasn't a team player for a while, etc.) but they were physically and mentally ready. On the other hand, there have been some high school-to-NBA players who flopped. The list of high school to NBA players (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high_school_draftees) is filled with some major busts (Brown, for one) or guys who were immature and talented but managed to out in a few years (Eddy Curry).

    There are freshman who have gone to the NBA after getting hyped up and busted, too, and others who have been dominant. But staying for 4 years of college has hurt some players, monetarily or otherwise. Ralph Sampson most notably. It's a mixed bag. There's economically less risk to drafting guys who may not be ready, though. So the NBA does it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by WakeDevil View Post
    Why is it anyone's business to make a player go to college? Why is it anyone's business to tell anyone else they have to get any secondary education? Some of you are very good at trying to run the lives of others.

    It's called paternalism.
    No one is telling a kid they have to go to college. A business (in this case the NBA) has every right to choose who they hire. If they want to say they won't hire anyone only one year removed from high school they can do it. As others have said this is about protecting the NBA, not the player. As for getting a secondary education, a kid doesn't have to attend college. They can take a year off or play in the D-league. It just happens to be that neither of those options are as lucrative to your career at this time.

    Personally I (and I assumed you) don't like the one and done rule, but I do prefer (like others) the 3 or none rule. Looked at from simply the perspective of the player your argument makes alot of sense. Unfortunately the perspective of the NBA is the one in charge.

  16. #16
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    Talking Maybe the Folks that Pay the Salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by WakeDevil View Post
    Why is it anyone's business to make a player go to college? Why is it anyone's business to tell anyone else they have to get any secondary education? Some of you are very good at trying to run the lives of others.

    It's called paternalism.
    No, but the NBA and the players' union have the legal right to set a minimum age or similar restriction on players that play in the NBA.

    sagegrouse

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WakeDevil View Post
    Why is it anyone's business to make a player go to college? Why is it anyone's business to tell anyone else they have to get any secondary education? Some of you are very good at trying to run the lives of others.

    It's called paternalism.
    Personally, I would be much happier going back to the mandatory 4-years rule (with no straight-from-HS option) than what is in place now. You might call it paternalism, but I see it as looking out for the well-being of these kids. Many of them aren't mature enough to make such a huge life decision on their own, and many more of them are surrounded by parents or "handlers" who have their own interests in mind.

    Just my two cents...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorp4me View Post
    No one is telling a kid they have to go to college. A business (in this case the NBA) has every right to choose who they hire. If they want to say they won't hire anyone only one year removed from high school they can do it.
    Could you name a few players that the NBA "hires"?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon View Post
    Personally, I would be much happier going back to the mandatory 4-years rule (with no straight-from-HS option) than what is in place now. You might call it paternalism, but I see it as looking out for the well-being of these kids. Many of them aren't mature enough to make such a huge life decision on their own, and many more of them are surrounded by parents or "handlers" who have their own interests in mind.

    Just my two cents...
    Clearly Kobe Bryant was too immature to make the decision to go to the NBA...despite winning an NBA title in what would have been his senior year in college, and was an allstar in what would have been his sophomore year.

    Despite the bogus rape case, he's handled himself as well as any other NBA player, and likely better than some who did go to college.

    I understand every kid is NOT kobe bryant, but you'd be doing a disservice to a lot of kids if they weren't able to take their skills to the highest level when they are ready. (and oh yes, I do agree that there are a lot of kids who are not ready when they do try to make that move)

    I 'left' school after 3 years (and yes...i did graduate). It would have been a great disservice to me had I been told I couldn't do what I wanted to after only 3 years despite being qualified(whether that be graduate school or industry or research)
    1200. DDMF.

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    College fans don't really have much or any leverage against the NBA. You pay millions of dollars for someones services then they come when you call. As a college fan I'm more worried about the D-League getting itself together and poaching kids right out of high school. If high school kids can get paid even a few hundred thousand a year and get to practice basketball all day everyday without worrying about study I think the temptation would be too much.

    Would it actually be in an 18 year old's best interests to skip college, bomb out in the D-League and never get a degree, of course not, but who said all teenagers do what's best for themselves!

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