NBA Playoffs

[CDu]

I wonder if maybe the bulls shouldn't be looking for a point guard instead of a 2. As dynamic as rose is with the ball, he is not a great point guard. He just really isn't that great at creating for his teammates or running plays. He still hasn't really gotten the pick and roll with Boozer down, like Deron Williams had. And he makes some bad decisions with the ball, but that may be down to age and just need more study (Rose's favorite word, I'm sure). I know he gets lots of assists... but that's not really all that indicative of anything, especially in the NBA. He seems to have only two modes, run around the perimeter and pass, or put his head down and charge. The happy medium is missing.

I just wonder if the team wouldn't be better if Rose took on more of a D Wade type role.

Rose's game is definitely more of a SG game (minus the shooting touch). The problem is that I don't know if they can succeed with two small guards. It would be great if they could find a playmaking big guard to share the ballhandling/distributing duties. But those guys are hard to find.

[BobbyFan]

I wonder if maybe the bulls shouldn't be looking for a point guard instead of a 2. As dynamic as rose is with the ball, he is not a great point guard. He just really isn't that great at creating for his teammates or running plays. He still hasn't really gotten the pick and roll with Boozer down, like Deron Williams had. And he makes some bad decisions with the ball, but that may be down to age and just need more study (Rose's favorite word, I'm sure). I know he gets lots of assists... but that's not really all that indicative of anything, especially in the NBA. He seems to have only two modes, run around the perimeter and pass, or put his head down and charge. The happy medium is missing.

I agree with you regarding Rose's deficiencies, but it's difficult and also unusual for a PG to change his style. For Rose to be among the elite players in the league, the aspect of his game that he is most capable of improving on is his defense.

I just wonder if the team wouldn't be better if Rose took on more of a D Wade type role.

Rose's style isn't all that different from Wade's when the Heat won the title in 2006. The difference is that Wade is a more efficient scorer than Rose is.

[roywhite]

I agree with you regarding Rose's deficiencies, but it's difficult and also unusual for a PG to change his style. For Rose to be among the elite players in the league, the aspect of his game that he is most capable of improving on is his defense.

Rose's style isn't all that different from Wade's when the Heat won the title in 2006. The difference is that Wade is a more efficient scorer than Rose is.

Rose is young, and does have room for improvement in some areas, but I'd say winning the MVP award indicates he is already one of the best players in the league.

[CDu]

Rose is young, and does have room for improvement in some areas, but I'd say winning the MVP award indicates he is already one of the best players in the league.

Agreed. He had a very bad series against the Heat. But as has been noted, that came against the best player in the NBA and another top-5/10 player, and a tall, athletic team focused entirely on stopping him.

Rose has some holes in his game (not a great shooter, not a lock-down defender, not a great passer off the dribble, can get tunnel vision). But in spite of that, the list of players who are better is REALLY short (like, MAYBE 5).

[tommy]

Hi Tommy, my issues isn't "who is making the decisions to stack a team -- management or the players themselves". My issue is the lack of competitive fire shown by the three of them joining together. Tommy, I like to see competition. I like to see superstar players (being paid millions of dollars) battling each other over their careers to prove who is the best. For example, had Michael Jordan left the Bulls after the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals after losing to the Piston's yet again and joined Charles Barkley in Philly and brought Brad Daugherty along for the ride I would have been disappointed in MJ. But Jordan never would have done that, he wanted to beat Barkley, not be his teammate. I just wanted to see LBJ, a back to back MVP in the prime of his career, stay the course and beat his competitors, not join them, that's my issue with the whole situation. It will color how I view the Heat's success and for me personally it's hard to be as excited about the Heat's accomplishments, but that's my view, others see it differently and I can understand their perspective but I don't agree, that's all!

Hey, no problem at all! Agreeing to disagree is just as civilized as it can be, right?

Why do you think that their decision to go to Miami is evidence of a "lack of competitive fire?" To me, there's plenty of competition out there for these guys. Just think how many great players there are out there. Dwight Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Derron Williams, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, Steve Nash, Russell Westbrook, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, Blake Griffin, Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, Al Horford, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Kevin Love. I could go on and on. These guys and the teams they're on all present unique challenges for Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, in my mind, and the Heat are trying to prove they're better than all of them.

It was a common reaction to Lebron and Bosh going to Miami to say "Jordan would never have done it." How does anyone know that? If Jordan had been on a team for 7 years and was in his prime, and it didn't look like that organization was going to be able to surround him with players good enough to win a championship, who's to say Jordan, the ultimate competitor, wouldn't have said, "I gotta get out of here. I crave winning, and it isn't happening here, no matter how great I play. I've done all I can do for this franchise and I need a different situation." What we do know is that Jordan did not say "I need to challenge myself against the best. Scottie Pippen is a great player, an all-time top 50 player. I need to play against him, not with him. I'm leaving the Bulls to go somewhere else."

But hey, we just differ on this. It won't color my perception of LeBron at all -- in fact, if anything, his play in these playoffs has made me appreciate his greatness to a far greater degree than I had before. You don't feel that way. That what makes horse races, right?

What I also like about college hoops is that to decide a champion it's a one and done tournament where by a team like Northern Iowa can knock off Kansas as we witnessed in 2010. If that was a seven game series the odds would be that Kansas would win. In the NBA the most talented team often wins (not always) but quite often. Therefore talent is more important in terms of winning it all than college.

Agree with you here.

To change tact, I would really like to know your opinion of the Mavs this postseason. I have to admit I'm still stunned by the Mav's this year. Such a testament to Dirk and his Mavs. It seems like such a distant memory that many people were picking the Blazers to knock them out in round 1! Then sweeping the Lakers, wow! I didn't feel that OKC was ready for the moment, but they sure have talent moving forward. Would be great if they get to battle the heat or Bulls in the Finals one year.

It will be very interesting to see how the Mavs match up with whoever comes out of the East, both defensive units. If it is indeed the Heat it will be interesting to see how the Heat contain both Dirk and the 3 point shooters of the Mavs. The Mavs also have some real size inside which would bother either Eastern Conf team.

Bosh seems like the right kind of physical match up for Dirk, but I wouldn't be surprised to see LBJ cover him also. If it's the Bulls I would envision seeing Noah attached to Dirk like glue; if not, then Gibson. Booz may actually have an advantage guarding either Chandler or Haywood, but he may struggle to finish inside against their length.

Either way, I will really enjoy watching Dirk, Terry & Kidd and all the Mav's veterans in the Finals. Should be fun.

I think it shapes up as an excellent series. The Mavs were outstanding all year long. Their length may pose a problem for the Heat taking the ball to the hoop. Chander, especially, is a defensive beast. The Bulls had nobody like him, that's for sure. But the Mavs are not real strong defensively in the backcourt, as Kidd and Terry have aged. Not sure who's going to really stay with Wade.

Miami, like everyone else, will have a problem matching up with Dirk. Bosh at least is long and can play inside/outside, and Haslem is just a tenacious defender and is used to playing guys bigger than he is. And you're right, LeBron could spend some time on him too, and just body him. I'm not sure Dallas' supporting cast scares Miami though -- much like the Bulls' supporting cast, though different in makeup than the Mavs', couldn't hurt them.

While Dallas has clearly been the best team in the Western Conference playoffs, I think their run ends in the finals. It just seems to me that, based on their play in the Chicago series, that Wade and, especially, LeBron, are simply not going to let this team lose, and they have the ability to impose their will at both ends of the floor against any opponent they face. Heat to win it.

[BobbyFan]

Rose is young, and does have room for improvement in some areas, but I'd say winning the MVP award indicates he is already one of the best players in the league.

I don't put much emphasis on the MVP because of irrelevant factors that can sway voters. But regardless, we may just be disagreeing on semantics here. To me elite is a a level I would only put LeBron, Howard, Wade, Paul, Kobe, and Durant on, although Kobe is not far from falling off that list.

[darjum]

I agree. It's going to be a big trade, too. If they don't get the right guy, the Bulls risk looking like Orlando . . . really good but not great with lots of highly paid players that are under contract for a few years. They definitely need Boozer to produce because it's unlikely they'd be able to move him easily with that contract he has. I'd be surprised if the Grizzlies were interested in trading Mayo after this last season, however. To me, that's a team that's looking to buy rather than sell (although they may consider moving Rudy Gay . . . not that the Bulls would be interested). The right trade and a good value pickup in the draft and the Bulls can be right there with Miami and the Celtics again next season with a better chance to emerge as the best of the bunch.

I know this might sound crazy and a bit drastic for a team that just made the conference finals, but why not make a push for Dwight Howard. At this stage it's getting clearer that he wants out of Orl and he may welcome a trade to a major market and playing along side the guy who beat him out for MVP. I know Otis Smith said he wouldn't trade Dwight at all, but after seeing what happened to the Cavs and Raptors after the summer of 2010, all the Melodrama in Denver, maybe Smith may look at offers.

Here's what the Bulls can offer:

Joakim Noah
Luol Deng
Taj Gibson
Draft picks

for

Dwight Howard
J.J. Redick

Orlando gets a high quality center and two very good players (particularly good defenders) in the deal. I know any trade can't replace probably the second most important player in the league (I consider LBJ the most important), but at least this would be fair compensation compared to getting nothing if he walks in 2012.

Orlando may start:
Noah
Gibson/Bass
Deng
Arenas
Nelson

The Bulls team Rose with another superstar and add JJ (who they obviously covert after offering him a contract last year). Essentially combining the best defender in the league with the best defensive coach.


Chicago may start:
Howard
Boozer
Brewer/Korver
Redick/Bogans
Rose

Crazy maybe, but if you can get one of the top 5 players in the game, have a go.

[jipops]

I think the Bulls are just one or two players away (assuming some further improvement from Rose, Deng, Gibson, and Noah). It's just going to be very tricky getting those one or two guys.

It is going to be tricky. But they really may only be one piece away. If they can just get that additional perimeter threat without sacrificing any team defense then they are right there. Certainly there is a 2 guard out there to entice a trade... Aaron Afflalo?

The Bulls should be very happy about what they accomplished this season. It is something they can build on.

[darjum]

Hey, no problem at all! Agreeing to disagree is just as civilized as it can be, right?

Why do you think that their decision to go to Miami is evidence of a "lack of competitive fire?" To me, there's plenty of competition out there for these guys. Just think how many great players there are out there. Dwight Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Derron Williams, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, Steve Nash, Russell Westbrook, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, Blake Griffin, Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, Al Horford, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Kevin Love. I could go on and on. These guys and the teams they're on all present unique challenges for Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, in my mind, and the Heat are trying to prove they're better than all of them.

It was a common reaction to Lebron and Bosh going to Miami to say "Jordan would never have done it." How does anyone know that? If Jordan had been on a team for 7 years and was in his prime, and it didn't look like that organization was going to be able to surround him with players good enough to win a championship, who's to say Jordan, the ultimate competitor, wouldn't have said, "I gotta get out of here. I crave winning, and it isn't happening here, no matter how great I play. I've done all I can do for this franchise and I need a different situation." What we do know is that Jordan did not say "I need to challenge myself against the best. Scottie Pippen is a great player, an all-time top 50 player. I need to play against him, not with him. I'm leaving the Bulls to go somewhere else."

But hey, we just differ on this. It won't color my perception of LeBron at all -- in fact, if anything, his play in these playoffs has made me appreciate his greatness to a far greater degree than I had before. You don't feel that way. That what makes horse races, right?

Hi Tommy, yes I think in the end you and I will have to agree to disagree. But hey, that's what debate is for No point agreeing when you don't...and as always my friend, I don't agree!

Tell me in the East who will dethrone the Heat (health permitting) for the next five years? The Bulls-not unless they get some serious help? Celtics-too old? New York-relying on Stoudemire's and Billup's bodies to hold up? Orlando-with all of the rumblings about Dwight leaving it's doubtful? When LBJ came to Miami (not someone going to his team) he cemented Miami in the Eastern Conference Finals for the next five years, which is fine and what he wanted. More power to him, but it showed that he didn't have the coconuts to do it himself on "his" team. Make no mistakes, he's the best player on the Heat team by a reasonable margin, but this is Wade's team, not LBJ's.

The West is where there may lay some quality opposition in the coming years. In the West if OKC can solve the Westbrook/Durant issues, then there is a team that can beat the Heat in 2 to 3 years. The Lakers, as long as Kobe doesn't implode and explode all at the same time after the Mike Brown hiring, could indeed take the Heat out next year. So yes, there is competition...but...if I was a betting man I would take the Heat in every playoff series they play (again, health permitting). They just rolled through the Eastern Conference Playoffs 4-1, 4-1, 4-1! This is the first year together and they destroyed the rest of the East in their first go round, scary. And as I said on a previous post, I will watch every game because I love basketball and I love defensive basketball, so I love the way the way the Heat grind out victories playing D. I just don't think of it in the same way I did watching the Bulls suffocate teams on defense in the 90's. Maybe I'm just getting older and things aren't quite as good as when I was a teenager.

The reason people bring up the Jordan example a lot is because it is apt. When people compare their careers it will be cited that LBJ left his team and went to a rivals team in order to win. He is the best player on the Heat, but again, he left his team, not Wade. You bring up Pippen, but in the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals, when Jordan needed him most, Pippen developed a "migraine" and didn't have Michael's back. At that stage Jordan (who had been at the Bulls for 6 years, 1 less the LBJ in Cleveland) could have looked at his roster (full of potential but failed to get past the Piston's on multiple occasions) and coach (only had a CBA title at this point) and said "get me out of here, I want a trade". Hopefully you and I are still contributing to future discussions and we can have this debate in 5 or so years, maybe at that stage I will have come around to your way of thinking...maybe not?!

As for the Finals I also was thinking about Chandler. It will be interesting to see if he guards Anthony or Bosh. I would envision Bosh, so as to take pressure off of Dirk, but Anthony is so active that Chandler might have to get physical with him and hope that Dirk can handle Bosh?

The Heat might be the perfect defensive unit to guard Dirk as so many of their players are interchangeable and can switch onto anyone. Albeit a 7-1 deadly shooter is hard for anyone to guard.

I actually think Kidd might be very effective defensively in this round. I felt when he was on Durant he did an outstanding job. He will at least be able to play Wade and let J.J, Terry or Peja guard Bibby or Chalmers when Marion or Stevenson is out of the game.

But in the end I agree with your pick, the Heat should win. Their defense is just so intense and their ability to contest 3's will hurt the Mav's shooters. But Dallas will hit more 3's than Bull's could. I have a feeling it will go 5 or 6. See, I told you, superteam

[superdave]

I agree. It's going to be a big trade, too. If they don't get the right guy, the Bulls risk looking like Orlando . . . really good but not great with lots of highly paid players that are under contract for a few years. They definitely need Boozer to produce because it's unlikely they'd be able to move him easily with that contract he has. I'd be surprised if the Grizzlies were interested in trading Mayo after this last season, however. To me, that's a team that's looking to buy rather than sell (although they may consider moving Rudy Gay . . . not that the Bulls would be interested). The right trade and a good value pickup in the draft and the Bulls can be right there with Miami and the Celtics again next season with a better chance to emerge as the best of the bunch.

I read that Cleveland offered the fourth pick and their Lebron trade exemption for Rudy Gay. Memphis said no but the cap will hit them soon.

[roywhite]

Sure will be nice to watch a game or two of the NBA Finals over this holiday weekend.

Ooops.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I know this might sound crazy and a bit drastic for a team that just made the conference finals, but why not make a push for Dwight Howard. At this stage it's getting clearer that he wants out of Orl and he may welcome a trade to a major market and playing along side the guy who beat him out for MVP. I know Otis Smith said he wouldn't trade Dwight at all, but after seeing what happened to the Cavs and Raptors after the summer of 2010, all the Melodrama in Denver, maybe Smith may look at offers.

Here's what the Bulls can offer:

Joakim Noah
Luol Deng
Taj Gibson
Draft picks

for

Dwight Howard
J.J. Redick

Orlando gets a high quality center and two very good players (particularly good defenders) in the deal. I know any trade can't replace probably the second most important player in the league (I consider LBJ the most important), but at least this would be fair compensation compared to getting nothing if he walks in 2012.

Orlando may start:
Noah
Gibson/Bass
Deng
Arenas
Nelson

The Bulls team Rose with another superstar and add JJ (who they obviously covert after offering him a contract last year). Essentially combining the best defender in the league with the best defensive coach.


Chicago may start:
Howard
Boozer
Brewer/Korver
Redick/Bogans
Rose

Crazy maybe, but if you can get one of the top 5 players in the game, have a go.

I like your thinking, but I don't know if I would bet Forman/Paxson wanting to part ways with Deng, Gibson, AND Noah. With that said though, the Bulls do have some attractive commodities ala Gibson, Noah, Asik, Deng, and even Brewer. They can't be afraid this off-season to shop around some of these combonations and throw in a Korver or Bogans. We heard last year a lot of interest in Asik and Gibson so I would not be surprised to hear these names come up again in trade talks. The Bulls need to get a proven scorer and though Rose will continue to blossom, everybody knows that Deng and Boozer will not all of a sudden turn into unstopabble forces.

[darjum]

I like your thinking, but I don't know if I would bet Forman/Paxson wanting to part ways with Deng, Gibson, AND Noah. With that said though, the Bulls do have some attractive commodities ala Gibson, Noah, Asik, Deng, and even Brewer. They can't be afraid this off-season to shop around some of these combonations and throw in a Korver or Bogans. We heard last year a lot of interest in Asik and Gibson so I would not be surprised to hear these names come up again in trade talks. The Bulls need to get a proven scorer and though Rose will continue to blossom, everybody knows that Deng and Boozer will not all of a sudden turn into unstopabble forces.

I think at this stage they can't move Boozer with his contract so Noah, Gibson, Asik and Deng are the most attractive pieces. Rose is obviously untouchable. I did hear a rumor about the Bulls interested in Howard after I wrote my post, so maybe I'm not crazy? I do feel the Bulls would have to give up at least Noah and Deng to get Howard. Even then the Magic would say that's not enough compensation. But unfortunately for the Magic they are getting stuck between a rock and a hard place. You have to make another block buster deal to surround him with talent (and they have very little outside of Howard to land another all-star caliber player), or you trade him for unequal value (eg Noah and pieces), or you let him walk? Tough spot for the Magic. At least Denver got something in return.

[COYS]

I think at this stage they can't move Boozer with his contract so Noah, Gibson, Asik and Deng are the most attractive pieces. Rose is obviously untouchable. I did hear a rumor about the Bulls interested in Howard after I wrote my post, so maybe I'm not crazy? I do feel the Bulls would have to give up at least Noah and Deng to get Howard. Even then the Magic would say that's not enough compensation. But unfortunately for the Magic they are getting stuck between a rock and a hard place. You have to make another block buster deal to surround him with talent (and they have very little outside of Howard to land another all-star caliber player), or you trade him for unequal value (eg Noah and pieces), or you let him walk? Tough spot for the Magic. At least Denver got something in return.

From the Bulls perspective, trading Noah and Deng for Howard is a no-brainer. Howard is so dominate offensively that he easily accounts for the drop off defensively by ridding the team of two strong defenders like Noah and Deng. As much as Boozer struggles defensively, he's no worse (and probably slightly better) than Rashard Lewis was when he was with Orlando and yet Howard's presence kept Orlando an elite defensive team. It is possible that Howard's addition would make Boozer less of a defensive liability in a similar fashion. The Bulls would still need to find shooters to fill out the roster, but quite honestly, Howard joining Rose in Chicago would be a dream scenario for Bulls fans, regardless of what it took to get him (short of trading Rose).

[Indoor66]

If I am Orlando I look for a pass first point guard and dump Jameer. This move, alone, will make Orlando a much better team - and might be a basis for keeping Howard in Orlando.

[CDu]

From the Bulls perspective, trading Noah and Deng for Howard is a no-brainer. Howard is so dominate offensively that he easily accounts for the drop off defensively by ridding the team of two strong defenders like Noah and Deng. As much as Boozer struggles defensively, he's no worse (and probably slightly better) than Rashard Lewis was when he was with Orlando and yet Howard's presence kept Orlando an elite defensive team. It is possible that Howard's addition would make Boozer less of a defensive liability in a similar fashion. The Bulls would still need to find shooters to fill out the roster, but quite honestly, Howard joining Rose in Chicago would be a dream scenario for Bulls fans, regardless of what it took to get him (short of trading Rose).

I'd hate losing Deng, and Noah is a terrific player as well. But I agree. I'd LOVE to see a Howard/Rose pairing. Howard is such a game-changing interior player on both ends of the court. He'd take the pressure off of Rose. It'd bury Boozer further though against teams with capable PFs. Howard would be an interior defender, and Boozer would get torched outside. That said, it's probably only a dream. I can't see the Magic trading Howard within the conference.

[COYS]

That said, it's probably only a dream. I can't see the Magic trading Howard within the conference.

This is a great point. I think it is the biggest hurdle in a potential Dwight-to-Chicago deal. Otherwise, the pieces almost make too much sense not to at least be seriously explored. But if I'm Orlando, I want Howard out west . . . not beating the crud out of my team as it tries to rebuild. The Howard to the Lakers talk makes me gag, though (apologies to any Lakers fans in the house!). And yes, this is just jealousy (I'm a Hawks fan! I don't have much else!).

[JasonEvans]

Here's what the Bulls can offer:

Joakim Noah
Luol Deng
Taj Gibson
Draft picks

for

Dwight Howard
J.J. Redick

I know it is fun to mess around with trade scenarios and ideas, but you really need to check to see if they are viable from the standpoint of the cap first.

The trade you outline above sends about $24 million of salary per year to the Bulls while they only dump $16 million of salary on the Magic. That just does not fit under current NBA rules.

If you want to make the trade work, you need to send Kyle Korver to the Magic too.

--Jason "I agree that Orlando will want to trade Dwight to the West -- hello, Lakers!" Evans

[Acymetric]

I know it is fun to mess around with trade scenarios and ideas, but you really need to check to see if they are viable from the standpoint of the cap first.

The trade you outline above sends about $24 million of salary per year to the Bulls while they only dump $16 million of salary on the Magic. That just does not fit under current NBA rules.

If you want to make the trade work, you need to send Kyle Korver to the Magic too.

--Jason "I agree that Orlando will want to trade Dwight to the West -- hello, Lakers!" Evans

I don't know that the Lakers will offer enough to make the trade happen. I think it takes 2 of Bynum/Gasol/Odom plus something else to sweeten the pot (and more may be necessary for cap purposes from either side), and I'm not sure the Lakers would do that.

[CDu]

I know it is fun to mess around with trade scenarios and ideas, but you really need to check to see if they are viable from the standpoint of the cap first.

The trade you outline above sends about $24 million of salary per year to the Bulls while they only dump $16 million of salary on the Magic. That just does not fit under current NBA rules.

If you want to make the trade work, you need to send Kyle Korver to the Magic too.

--Jason "I agree that Orlando will want to trade Dwight to the West -- hello, Lakers!" Evans

Actually, Noah makes $10 million next year and Deng makes $12 million. So those two alone make $22 million. So the Bulls would be sending roughly $24 million to the Magic.

That said, it probably won't matter, because the Magic aren't likely to trade within the conference.

I would be very displeased if Howard went to the Lakers...