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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieinSoCal View Post
    I totally agree. I don't even know why everyone is debating this other than the fact that Mason is our player and we're blindly devoted. Zeller consistently demonstrates a soft touch around the basket, hits a high percentage of open jumpers from 15 feet in, and knows how to get inside position for his baby hook. Mason doesn't do any of these things well yet.
    You're right. That's really the thing with Mason. He has no touch. While he has difficulty freeing himself for makable shots within 10 feet of the basket, when he does free himself, he just doesn't make them. Reminds me of McRoberts in some ways in that respect.

    The thing that bugs me about this is that developing touch is usually a product of just plain hard work. Shooting a lot of shots. Practice, practice, practice, until you get a feel for the shot and until that feel becomes ingrained. It concerns me to think that perhaps Mason doesn't work hard enough on this aspect of his game. I hope I'm wrong about it, but I fear I may not be.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    You're right. That's really the thing with Mason. He has no touch. While he has difficulty freeing himself for makable shots within 10 feet of the basket, when he does free himself, he just doesn't make them. Reminds me of McRoberts in some ways in that respect.

    The thing that bugs me about this is that developing touch is usually a product of just plain hard work. Shooting a lot of shots. Practice, practice, practice, until you get a feel for the shot and until that feel becomes ingrained. It concerns me to think that perhaps Mason doesn't work hard enough on this aspect of his game. I hope I'm wrong about it, but I fear I may not be.
    Wow. Sorry, but I have to disagree with both of you guys. What Zeller has is a great shooting touch. He shoots it with the ease of a guard. That is a gift. A well honed gift for sure, but it's not like Zeller was born a terrible shooter and worked himself into a great one.

    Zeller just has superior shooting skills compared to Mason. I think Mason can be become a good shooter, but he will never have the touch that Zeller has. Some things players are just born with.

    And as has been commented on numerous times before, it is totally unfair to call out players for not working on a skill or not working in practice, etc. We do not see the practices and the summer work these kids put in. To suggest they are not good at something due to lack of work is a very unfair and unwarranted accusation, unless there is hard evidence (like a statement from a teammate or coach) to back it up. We have no idea what Mason works on. I would be willing to wager though, that all of the Duke players, Mason included work hard on all aspects of their game.

    Mason and Tyler Z are totally different players for one thing. Tyler is a finesse big man with great offensive skill, but is not a great defender and not a great rebounder, but the guy can flat out score the basketball with ease.

    Mason is a great rebounder, good shot blocker, and good defender. He struggles scoring the ball, but has made improvement and I expect will improve even more. He has great court vision, and is a good passer, especially for a big. He also has shown the ability to put the ball on the floor facing up and score or get fouled, especially from the baseline.


    Mason is a work in progress, but is on track to becoming an impact player. It just takes longer with some kids, especially bigs. I just think it is unfair to suggest that Mason is a terrible player, and suggest that he does not work hard on his game.

    Wainstein Report Page 19 Section G:
    In men’s basketball, academic counselor Burgess McSwain (“McSwain”) and
    her successor Wayne Walden routinely called Crowder to arrange classes for their
    players.
    Roy Williams Of Nazareth had no knowledge however. He is sinless.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    Wow. Sorry, but I have to disagree with both of you guys. What Zeller has is a great shooting touch. He shoots it with the ease of a guard. That is a gift. A well honed gift for sure, but it's not like Zeller was born a terrible shooter and worked himself into a great one.

    Zeller just has superior shooting skills compared to Mason. I think Mason can be become a good shooter, but he will never have the touch that Zeller has. Some things players are just born with.

    And as has been commented on numerous times before, it is totally unfair to call out players for not working on a skill or not working in practice, etc. We do not see the practices and the summer work these kids put in. To suggest they are not good at something due to lack of work is a very unfair and unwarranted accusation, unless there is hard evidence (like a statement from a teammate or coach) to back it up. We have no idea what Mason works on. I would be willing to wager though, that all of the Duke players, Mason included work hard on all aspects of their game.

    Mason and Tyler Z are totally different players for one thing. Tyler is a finesse big man with great offensive skill, but is not a great defender and not a great rebounder, but the guy can flat out score the basketball with ease.

    Mason is a great rebounder, good shot blocker, and good defender. He struggles scoring the ball, but has made improvement and I expect will improve even more. He has great court vision, and is a good passer, especially for a big. He also has shown the ability to put the ball on the floor facing up and score or get fouled, especially from the baseline.


    Mason is a work in progress, but is on track to becoming an impact player. It just takes longer with some kids, especially bigs. I just think it is unfair to suggest that Mason is a terrible player, and suggest that he does not work hard on his game.
    Plus 1 for this post, Newton. Look, Zeller may be the better player, but the gap is not nearly as wide as some on this board seem to believe it to be. Zeller is the superior scorer. That is not debatable right now. However, Mason has the advantage in rebounding, defense (he improved tremendously as the season went on and will continue to get better), passing, and dribbling. Scoring is obviously extremely important in basketball, but it isn't everything. Quite frankly, if Mason improves his scoring numbers a bit, his FT% a lot, and continues a natural progression in the other areas, Mason may emerge as the more well rounded player as early as next season.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by COYS View Post
    Plus 1 for this post, Newton. Look, Zeller may be the better player, but the gap is not nearly as wide as some on this board seem to believe it to be. Zeller is the superior scorer. That is not debatable right now. However, Mason has the advantage in rebounding, defense (he improved tremendously as the season went on and will continue to get better), passing, and dribbling. Scoring is obviously extremely important in basketball, but it isn't everything. Quite frankly, if Mason improves his scoring numbers a bit, his FT% a lot, and continues a natural progression in the other areas, Mason may emerge as the more well rounded player as early as next season.
    Zeller was *only* a rebound per game off mason. Now obviously that's fairly significant, but its not pacific ocean wide. Zeller on the other hand more than doubled mason's scoring output, 8 points a game is a large gap. Mason far outstrips zeller by an assist per game. I would hardly say mason is the better dribbler, though. Perhaps he dribbles MORE, but that isn't necessarily better. While turnovers aren't the most telling thing, he had 33% more turnovers (1.9-1.4) than zeller did.

    Zeller is clearly a much better scorer, there's no denying that, but in my opinion, neither is worlds ahead of the other in any other stat category.
    9f

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    And as has been commented on numerous times before, it is totally unfair to call out players for not working on a skill or not working in practice, etc. We do not see the practices and the summer work these kids put in. To suggest they are not good at something due to lack of work is a very unfair and unwarranted accusation, unless there is hard evidence (like a statement from a teammate or coach) to back it up. We have no idea what Mason works on. I would be willing to wager though, that all of the Duke players, Mason included work hard on all aspects of their game.
    Really? Would you wager that Tyler works hard on his post moves, and that Mason works hard on his 3-point shooting? Or do you think it's possible that different players pick different things to focus on, according to preference and need, and that maybe - just maybe - some players work harder than others?

    I just don't see it as degrading to suggest that maybe Mason didn't specifically focus on his baby-hook and drop-step last summer. As you say, we fans generally don't know what it is our players devote their basketball work to. Often, we come to this forum to speculate on the unknown based on the games we've seen and the things we do know - and the speculation of some posters will inevitably vary from that of other posters.

    I appreciate your defense of Mason, but I don't like when posters suggest that certain non-offensive topics of conversation are simply off-limits.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Zeller was *only* a rebound per game off mason. Now obviously that's fairly significant, but its not pacific ocean wide.
    Well, first of all, Mason had 1.3 more rebounds per game, not 1.0, and that difference is something. Second, Zeller played 82 more minutes than Mason did. Mason's rebounds per 40 minutes (13.13) is 28% higher than Zeller's (10.24).

    If you look at Pomeroy's breakdown, you can see Mason is only a little bit better at offensive rebounding than Zeller (Mason grabbed 11.1% of the available offensive boards vs. Zeller's 10.8%), but Mason is a vastly superior defensive rebounder than Zeller, snagging 24.0% of the available defensive rebounds, while Zeller only got 15.3%, a whopping 57% advantage for Mason, which if not "Pacific Ocean wide" is at least Atlantic.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    Really? Would you wager that Tyler works hard on his post moves, and that Mason works hard on his 3-point shooting? Or do you think it's possible that different players pick different things to focus on, according to preference and need, and that maybe - just maybe - some players work harder than others?

    I just don't see it as degrading to suggest that maybe Mason didn't specifically focus on his baby-hook and drop-step last summer. As you say, we fans generally don't know what it is our players devote their basketball work to. Often, we come to this forum to speculate on the unknown based on the games we've seen and the things we do know - and the speculation of some posters will inevitably vary from that of other posters.

    I appreciate your defense of Mason, but I don't like when posters suggest that certain non-offensive topics of conversation are simply off-limits.
    We can agree to disagree. I would defend any player when a fan suggests the player is not working on "X" or "Y" in practice or in their summer work. IMO it is an unfair allegation to make. It also suggests that the coaches are not having the player work on the correct skills.

    As for Mason, it was stated by Jason Williams late in the season that Wojo and Mason had been working really hard in practice on the little baseline jumphook. So that much we know for sure was being worked on.

    Constructive criticism is certainly fair for sure, I just find it incredibly unfair when a fan says something like "Mason is not working on his low post moves in practice", when we as fans do not attend the practices.

    Wainstein Report Page 19 Section G:
    In men’s basketball, academic counselor Burgess McSwain (“McSwain”) and
    her successor Wayne Walden routinely called Crowder to arrange classes for their
    players.
    Roy Williams Of Nazareth had no knowledge however. He is sinless.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by DBFAN View Post
    I think it is important to note that Plumlee has never had more than a handful of games with a true point guard who knows naturally how to get the ball at the right time to a big man. Next season wll be different for him if he stays. Cook seems to be a pass first PG. Remember Mason was having a pretty good run in the first 8 games he had with Irving. I truly believe he will turn a lot of heads next season
    This is a good point. A good distributor could make a huge difference for MP. Despite all the Zeller comparisons, I think Mason is more similar to Henson. Zeller has had a natural shooting touch and scoring ability from day 1. He just needed to gain some experience and learn the skill of shot selection to become a star. MP can get better, but will never have that touch. He reminds me of Henson in that, to date, Henson is not someone you can dump the ball into and have him consistently create a good shot on his own. Henson gets a lot of points through put-backs and plays largely set up by Marshall's passing or penetration. It is his athleticism that generates the baskets. I want MP to go pro because even though I will never fear his jump shot, I think he has an upside that i would prefer to see realized in NBA.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoHeel View Post
    This is a good point. A good distributor could make a huge difference for MP.
    Careful. Quinn Cook is not Kyrie Irving. In fact, I consider Kyrie making Mason look like a good scorer one of his more impressive accomplishments.

    Good call on the Mason/Henson thing, though. I can see Mason as a poor man's Henson. Tall NBA draft picks who rely on their outstanding physical talents, block shots, are great rebounders, terrible shooters, and make too many boneheaded plays. At any rate, they're a lot more similar than Mason and Zeller are.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, first of all, Mason had 1.3 more rebounds per game, not 1.0, and that difference is something. Second, Zeller played 82 more minutes than Mason did. Mason's rebounds per 40 minutes (13.13) is 28% higher than Zeller's (10.24).

    If you look at Pomeroy's breakdown, you can see Mason is only a little bit better at offensive rebounding than Zeller (Mason grabbed 11.1% of the available offensive boards vs. Zeller's 10.8%), but Mason is a vastly superior defensive rebounder than Zeller, snagging 24.0% of the available defensive rebounds, while Zeller only got 15.3%, a whopping 57% advantage for Mason, which if not "Pacific Ocean wide" is at least Atlantic.
    Fair enough. I take the Zoubek argument here: a player can't be productive when he's not in the game, so I really don't put as much stock into per 40 minutes stats. That said, you are of course right he's better at defensive rebounding by a very large margin when playing the same amount of time. On the same breath, though, his points and turnovers look even WORSE than they did before relative to zeller.

    Again, those numbers don't mean a thing anyway unless he can keep himself out of trouble and on the floor. Zoubek figured this out and we all know what happened.
    9f

  11. #71

    the real problem

    with Mason is his inability to put the ball in the basket. He has no go to moves and if he does we have not seen them. I have mentioned in earlier post's that Mason was attending a "Big Man" camp in Chicago in early summer last year (2010). After i read about his presence at the camp, i was happy to see him at the Pro Am at NC Central in early July. When i saw him i started to wonder when he would show me his new found offensive moves, well that never happened. He began the session as he had the previous year, dribbling the ball, taking outside shots, nothing had changed. Mason has a couple of things he does well, he is a good jumper and he runs the court fairly well but Mason is not quick, Miles is quick. Mason is not that good of a defensive player, yes he blocks some shots but he also leaves his feet when the opponent uses a pump fake on him. His ability to hit the 10 or 15 foot shot is missing as well. So we have a player that everyone, including myself thinks will be really good but when? I'm going to give him another year to hopefully enhance his game and make a name for himself. I think when we as fans look at these kids we get carried away sometimes both for the good and bad. What i'm concerned about as a fan is will my team (Duke) win games and which players will help us do that? Mason so far has not lived up to the standard that we as fans have put on him, perhaps we have expected to much of him, if we have then we will have to live with what we have.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by verga View Post
    with Mason is his inability to put the ball in the basket. He has no go to moves and if he does we have not seen them. I have mentioned in earlier post's that Mason was attending a "Big Man" camp in Chicago in early summer last year (2010). After i read about his presence at the camp, i was happy to see him at the Pro Am at NC Central in early July. When i saw him i started to wonder when he would show me his new found offensive moves, well that never happened. He began the session as he had the previous year, dribbling the ball, taking outside shots, nothing had changed. Mason has a couple of things he does well, he is a good jumper and he runs the court fairly well but Mason is not quick, Miles is quick. Mason is not that good of a defensive player, yes he blocks some shots but he also leaves his feet when the opponent uses a pump fake on him. His ability to hit the 10 or 15 foot shot is missing as well. So we have a player that everyone, including myself thinks will be really good but when? I'm going to give him another year to hopefully enhance his game and make a name for himself. I think when we as fans look at these kids we get carried away sometimes both for the good and bad. What i'm concerned about as a fan is will my team (Duke) win games and which players will help us do that? Mason so far has not lived up to the standard that we as fans have put on him, perhaps we have expected to much of him, if we have then we will have to live with what we have.
    Personally, I am willing to give him two more years.

  13. #73

    Mason

    Quote Originally Posted by billoz View Post
    Personally, I am willing to give him two more years.
    Yes, but while other teams have key talent returning, we are still sweating out whether Mason will return for another season. The faults listed by others should not obscure the fact that Mason is the best big man on the Duke roster at this time.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    Yes, but while other teams have key talent returning, we are still sweating out whether Mason will return for another season. The faults listed by others should not obscure the fact that Mason is the best big man on the Duke roster at this time.
    You're not sweating whether Mason returns for the 2012 season still, right? He's definitely coming back.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by airowe View Post
    You're not sweating whether Mason returns for the 2012 season still, right? He's definitely coming back.
    Thanks, airowe.

    That has been my impression, yet I've seen this thread grow...wasn't sure what it was about.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Thanks, airowe.

    That has been my impression, yet I've seen this thread grow...wasn't sure what it was about.
    It's due to the fact that Chad Ford (for one) still has him in the group of "Players leaning toward declaring for the draft" (as of April 11, 2011, 5:57 PM ET)

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by rotogod00 View Post
    It's due to the fact that Chad Ford (for one) still has him in the group of "Players leaning toward declaring for the draft" (as of April 11, 2011, 5:57 PM ET)
    I don't have a hard time choosing whom to believe here.

    Airowe has Duke contacts and a good track record.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    If Mason is definitely coming back, why doesn't he say so?

    Since Mason was our most talented big man this past year, why are we finding fault with him? I'm much more content with finding fault with the coaches at U Conn and KY, slightly more content with finding fault with Carolina players (though it gets complicated when one has a sister who is playing for us), and uncomfortable when nitpicking over the ways in which our best interior player doesn't have a reliable 15 foot jump shot or in assertions about PT for players most of us have never seen play in a genuinely predictive game, much less practices and games that don't begin until next fall.

  19. #79

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Zeller was *only* a rebound per game off mason. Now obviously that's fairly significant, but its not pacific ocean wide. Zeller on the other hand more than doubled mason's scoring output, 8 points a game is a large gap. Mason far outstrips zeller by an assist per game. I would hardly say mason is the better dribbler, though. Perhaps he dribbles MORE, but that isn't necessarily better. While turnovers aren't the most telling thing, he had 33% more turnovers (1.9-1.4) than zeller did.

    Zeller is clearly a much better scorer, there's no denying that, but in my opinion, neither is worlds ahead of the other in any other stat category.
    Zeller scores more yes BUT he also plays more. Also unc ran their offense through the bigs and we ran ours through the guards giving Zeller more oppurtunities to score. I would like to know how many times a game Zeller touched the ball inside compared to Mason.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    If Mason is definitely coming back, why doesn't he say so?
    I may be in a minority of one here, but if Mason has decided to stay, I'd just as soon he not have a press conference to announce it. No Skype/Tweet stuff, either. Preferably no announcement whatsoever, from him, his family, his brothers, Nolan, Kyrie, GoDuke, the Honorable Mods, nobody. I'd prefer that he simply let pass the deadline to declare for the draft.

    This would have 2 advantages: (1) It would show some extra good sense on Mason's part. In effect, he'd be saying, "Yeah, I know there's talk about me and the NBA, but I think I need to improve some first. And Miles and I are gonna beat the crap out of Marshall in practice. Some things are more important than money." (2) It would drive many DBR posters crazy, metaphorically speaking. Which we, including me, deserve, as Obsessed Nut Cases. Gotta see the humor in this.

    Though I suppose that, even in this scenario, i.e., absolute silence, we'll have a new thread asking, "What does it mean that the NBA deadline has passed, and Mason hasn't said anything yet? He's not transferring, is he?"

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