Would Duke have really been a final 4 team had Kyrie not been hurt?

[roywhite]

Not sure if Duke would have made the Final Four if Kyrie played healthy all year. While the team would have been different and possibly better, did we have an answer for Arizona with Derrick Williams and their penetration on offense?

[SuperTurkey]

Not sure if Duke would have made the Final Four if Kyrie played healthy all year. While the team would have been different and possibly better, did we have an answer for Arizona with Derrick Williams and their penetration on offense?

Well, if Kyrie's healthy all year, who knows is we actually face Zona? Chances are we would come in as the overall one seed, so the whole tourney deck would have been reshuffled.

This whole what-if game is just a depressing bummer of sadness and suckitude, though. Go Butler!

[hurleyfor3]

Butler struggled early in the season but came on strong at the end. Let's not sell them short. They're a very good team and their fan base is getting very cocky as witnessed by the, "Where's Duke" sign that was sported at today's game.

Awwwww, they miss us.

[DukeGirl4ever]

The NCAA tournament, more specifically the Final Four, has become something more than just a tournament for the best teams in the nation. If that was the case, we would be there.

A lot of my friends have asked me what it takes to win a National Championship and I think I have a formula (but please feel free to add).

1.) Talent/Upperclassmen leadership (that's a duh statement)
2.) Coaching (another Captain Obvious statement)
3.) Depth (shocker, I know)
4.) A team that has not had to deal with injuries
5.) A team that is peaking at the right time (I think back to the NOVA team last year that a lot of people expected great things from and they tanked HARD at the end of the year - they had hit their peak earlier in the season).
6.) Match-ups - Seeding doesn't really mean a whole heck of a lot of you if you have potential match-up problems against a particular team (us vs. D. Williams)
7.) A little bit of luck (Anyone remember Matt Howard's buzz beater in the opening round and all of the countless crazy endings/questionable calls?)

If you have all of these factors, I think you've got a good shot to make a run.
Butler has all of those factors. Sure, they may not have played great earlier in the year, but we have this tournament for a reason and the teams that take advantage of it at the right time and as Brad Stevens said "finally get it"...those teams deserve to be there.

I think our National Championship run last year also shows that we peaked at the right time...as Coach Norman Dale said, "All the pistons were firing"! (God I love that movie!).

[moonpie23]

That game was one of Butler's *better* efforts of the regular season. They struggled even worse for much of their conference slate.

They aren't a very good team. They're an okay team that has had a good tournament.

really?? you don't go to back to back finals games and not be a very good team...

[Buckeye Devil]

They were the best team early in the season when Kyrie was at the point and Nolan played the 2. They were a different team when Kyrie returned for the NCAAT-clearly not the same team that beat up UNC in the ACC tourney. Had Kyrie been in the lineup all year Duke's draw would have been different and I think they easily make the Final 4. Heck, this year they might have been better off to have been a 2 seed on the other side of the bracket which was weaker.

[moonpie23]

we might have been seeded differently...

[_Gary]

This is one of the easiest questions this board has ever asked. Would Duke have really been a final 4 team had Kyrie not been hurt?

H-E-C-K Y-E-S!!!!!

This team was THE team before the injury and had Kyrie not gotten hurt we'd have rolled through the regular season unbeaten, with a possible loss in the ACC Finals (Here, I'm just assuming that someone would give us a game and might beat us in the finals). But there can be no doubt about it. With Kyrie we had, hand's down, the most dynamic pg in the country, bar none! The national title would have been ours for the taking.

[ncexnyc]

It's so sad to read some of the comments made making light of what Butler has accomplished. Unfortunately every time someone tries to discount what they've done it only adds fuel to the Duke haters who say the very same thing about our title run last year.

Making it to the Championship games two years running should be enough to prove to anyone just how good this Butler team really is. As I said on another thread their run only validates just how good we were last year.

[uh_no]

Butler is one heck of a team, and brad stevens is one hell of a coach. it's impossible to find a single thing to criticize about them, their players, or their program. They should be a model the likes of duke on how to run a program. Gotta love butler, even last year in indy, they couldn't have been better hosts (I had just a great experience in indy)

Kudos to butler...great school...great city...great people.


Uconn is also one heck of a team. What they've done in tournament games this season is incredible. They've beaten several different styles of teams and until tonight, hadn't really shown tiring. They beat a phenomenal arizona team, and then a kentucky team that had one of the most impressive set of wins to get them to the final 4? This game was a defensive classic.

Character issues set aside, I look forward to the matchup monday.

[rsvman]

To be fair, at the end of the season Butler was #37 on Kenpom, which was behind both Maryland and Virginia Tech. They lost to Evansville. They lost to Wisconsin-Milwaukee by 24 points on the road and lost to them again (in overtime) at home. They lost to Wright State, Youngstown State, and Valparaiso. Heck, they almost lost their first-round game to ODU. Had Howard not gotten that put-back as time expired, they would have been watching the Final Four in Indiana on their televisions and everybody would've said "Look how far they fell; from the Final game last year to a first-round loss this season; it's kinda sad, isn't it? Hayward was the engine that drove the Butler team."

Point is that the NCAA tournament is fickle. I agree with the poster who said that Butler is not all that good.

They are certainly playing well now, and they are tough and very well coached. They don't wilt when the going gets tough. They're obviously better now than they were when they lost to Valpo and Evansville.

But are they one of the two best teams in the country? No, and neither is UConn. We have got to get over this idea that the NCAA tournament is an effort to find the best basketball team in the country. It's not; it's an effort to see who can win this tournament. Whoever wins on Monday will have managed to win this tournament, and will thus be legitimate NCAA tournament champions. They will not, however, necessarily be the "best team" in the country.

[uh_no]

But are they one of the two best teams in the country? No, and neither is UConn.

You could, however, argue that uconn has been the best team in the country since the end of the regular season. No, they never saw OSU or kansas, (they did beat pitt)...but like people said about duke last year, all you can do is beat the team in front of you, and so far, uconn and butler are the only teams who have managed to do that

[sporthenry]

If the Duke team pre-Kyrie's injury played the current Butler team in the final game, who wins? I know we beat them in December, but this Butler teams seems to have improved from then.

But the point is that Duke would have been better too. KI and the chemistry with Duke would have improved greatly b/c as good as KI was, he still made some freshman mistakes. So that argument holds little weight especially since they were a more experienced team coming into the season.

[rsvman]

Agreed. Not taking anything away from either team. But the tournament is the tournament, and "best" is "best." The two don't necessarily jive. I don't really think Duke was necessarily the "best" team last year, either, but we won the tournament.

It's better this way, anyway. Think about it. College football tries like the dickens to actually crown the "best team" as their champion, and it's just a disaster. Basketball gave up on the concept a long time ago. We just play a tournament, and crown an NCAA tournament champion.

People just need to remember not to confuse "best team" with "tournament champion." Sometimes the same team fits both descriptions, and sometimes not. It doesn't really matter.

[JG Nothing]

To be fair, at the end of the season Butler was #37 on Kenpom, which was behind both Maryland and Virginia Tech. They lost to Evansville. They lost to Wisconsin-Milwaukee by 24 points on the road and lost to them again (in overtime) at home. They lost to Wright State, Youngstown State, and Valparaiso. Heck, they almost lost their first-round game to ODU. Had Howard not gotten that put-back as time expired, they would have been watching the Final Four in Indiana on their televisions and everybody would've said "Look how far they fell; from the Final game last year to a first-round loss this season; it's kinda sad, isn't it? Hayward was the engine that drove the Butler team."

Point is that the NCAA tournament is fickle. I agree with the poster who said that Butler is not all that good.

They are certainly playing well now, and they are tough and very well coached. They don't wilt when the going gets tough. They're obviously better now than they were when they lost to Valpo and Evansville.

But are they one of the two best teams in the country? No, and neither is UConn. We have got to get over this idea that the NCAA tournament is an effort to find the best basketball team in the country. It's not; it's an effort to see who can win this tournament. Whoever wins on Monday will have managed to win this tournament, and will thus be legitimate NCAA tournament champions. They will not, however, necessarily be the "best team" in the country.

Who in this thread said Butler was one of the two best teams in the country? Who in this thread said the NCAA tournament determines the best basketball team in the country?

If Butler is "not all that good," then I would like you to define what it means to be good. Butler is 14-1 since the beginning of February and have won its past 14 games in a row. They've beaten Pitt, Wisconsin, and Florida, a solid ODU, and a hot VCU. What does Butler have to do to simply be a "good" team?

Look, I dislike Butler because I have to hear and see their idiot fans everyday, but give me a break. Butler is a darn good team.

[Saratoga2]

If you look at the final four this year (or any other year) there are no perfect teams out there. Look at Kentucky last night. With all the talent they possess, they were only still about 7 deep and tired noticeably. Also they were a very poor foul shooting team and that contributed to their loss.

VCU had a very pesky style of pushing the ball relentlessly. They had 10 players they used to sustain the pressure and had better talent than they were given credit for. They got outrebounded by Butler and missed at least 10 bunnies from less than 2 feet out.

Butler is an experienced team, who rebounds well and has a couple of decent scorers. They play really good defense and play consistently for the entire game. They can be beaten and a team like Arizona would have had they played the kind of game they showed against Duke.

UCONN is a fairly complete team, yet Kentucky had a good chance of beating them, but missed a ton of free throws. They can go down, and I hope they do to Butler.

The point I am trying to make is that we have gone on about all of the issues that Duke had this year, and how some of them showed up against Arizona. Many of the observations made on the board were accurate, but it is also clear that no team is without fault. Depending on the matchups and the particular team chemistry on any given night, we might well have made it to the final four and even won the championship. We need to enjoy the ride and appreciate the fine kids and coaches we arre blessed with.

[rthomas]

Just think how good Duke could've been if Kobe had gone to Duke instead of the NBA. And stayed all 4 years.

[Troublemaker]

Heck, even the Duke team that played in the ACC tournament would've done major damage in the NCAAs, imo. Hopefully that aspect of this 2011 season does not become lost as time goes by.

If you followed the team closely this year, watched nearly every game, read the beat reporting, etc., you know that this Duke team really came together the week of the ACC tournament. The team had great practices and everyone in the rotation found a role and the team played great basketball and was extremely confident.

The proof is in the scoreboard.

Duke 87 - 71 over Maryland
Duke 76 - 63 over Virginia Tech, and finally, and most awesomely,
Duke 75 - 58 over UNC

MD and VT were on par with the last few at-large teams that got into the NCAAs (maybe not VCU in hindsight, but you see what I'm saying). And Carolina was a 2 seed. And Duke rolled all of them.

That Duke team would've done damage in the NCAAs. As I've said before, I'm not bitter. I'm not regretful. I'm not blaming. Stuff happens in a basketball season and in life; you roll with it.

But I just hope no one forgets the tremendous job that this 2011 team did to come together after their best player got injured. The team developed throughout the season. Every role player improved at various points in the season and, by ACC tournament time, everyone in the rotation was pitching in. This was a GREAT season for Duke and a GREAT job of leadership by Nolan and Kyle to steer the ship after Kyrie got sunk.

Nolan and Kyle should get their jerseys retired. Don't let the NCAA tournament performance when the team was in the midst of re-adjusting and re-integrating sway you otherwise.

[jipops]

Not sure if Duke would have made the Final Four if Kyrie played healthy all year. While the team would have been different and possibly better, did we have an answer for Arizona with Derrick Williams and their penetration on offense?

Chances are, with a full season of a healthy Kyrie we could have conceivably had a couple fewer losses. That would have most likely placed us as a #1 seed in the East where we probably would not have played Arizona in the sweet 16 anyways. Injuries, wins and losses do have their ripple effects.

[marinbobbyduhon]

Heck, even the Duke team that played in the ACC tournament would've done major damage in the NCAAs, imo. Hopefully that aspect of this 2011 season does not become lost as time goes by.

If you followed the team closely this year, watched nearly every game, read the beat reporting, etc., you know that this Duke team really came together the week of the ACC tournament. The team had great practices and everyone in the rotation found a role and the team played great basketball and was extremely confident.

The proof is in the scoreboard.

Duke 87 - 71 over Maryland
Duke 76 - 63 over Virginia Tech, and finally, and most awesomely,
Duke 75 - 58 over UNC

MD and VT were on par with the last few at-large teams that got into the NCAAs (maybe not VCU in hindsight, but you see what I'm saying). And Carolina was a 2 seed. And Duke rolled all of them.

That Duke team would've done damage in the NCAAs. As I've said before, I'm not bitter. I'm not regretful. I'm not blaming. Stuff happens in a basketball season and in life; you roll with it.

But I just hope no one forgets the tremendous job that this 2011 team did to come together after their best player got injured. The team developed throughout the season. Every role player improved at various points in the season and, by ACC tournament time, everyone in the rotation was pitching in. This was a GREAT season for Duke and a GREAT job of leadership by Nolan and Kyle to steer the ship after Kyrie got sunk.

Nolan and Kyle should get their jerseys retired. Don't let the NCAA tournament performance when the team was in the midst of re-adjusting and re-integrating sway you otherwise.

I would vote this post of the day, if we had such a thing. I also thought Saratoga2 had some great points. We should celebrate our Duke team's accomplishments, which were many. These guys are winners in every respect. I sure am going to miss Kyle and Nolan, but next year's team will have its story to tell, too; and I will be blessed to follow along.