Can Rivers be the best scorer ever to play for Duke?

[SupaDave]

I can't help but think you are joking here

Not at all...

JJ - for his shot range and confidence
Jason - for his handles and reverse lay-up
Maggette - for his dunks and attitude
Grant - for his stature, pedigree, maturity, and ranking

[Indoor66]

Not at all...

JJ - for his shot range and confidence
Jason - for his handles and reverse lay-up
Maggette - for his dunks and attitude
Grant - for his stature, pedigree, maturity, and ranking

May we at least see him on the floor before we grant him greatness?

[johnb]

Freshman Scoring Average

Rk Name,             Year    G    Pts    Avg
1. Johnny Dawkins, 1982-83   28   506   18.1
2. Gene Banks,     1977-78   34   581   17.1
3. Mike Gminski,   1976-77   27   414   15.3
4. Luol Deng,      2003-04   37   558   15.1
5. J.J. Redick,    2002-03   33   495   15.0
6. Jason Williams, 1999-00   34   492   14.5
7. Elton Brand,    1997-98   21   281   13.4
8. Jim Spanarkel,  1975-76   23   307   13.3
9. Kyle Singler,   2007-08   34   451   13.3
10. Carlos Boozer, 1999-00   34   443   13.0
10. Mark Alarie,   1982-83   28   364   13.0
Minimum 20 games played 

OK, I know we're supposed to talk about Austin's potential (high, though I think we should scale back our expectations that he'll be the instant star that we had this past year; I also think we'll be a better team if he scores 15 ppg and keeps everyone involved), but I'd rather think about the above as a team and wonder about a backcourt of Dawkins and Williams working with a frontcourt of, say, Brand, Boozer, and Deng, with some pretty darn good players coming off the bench. At their peak. that group would still be in the NBA playoffs.And it'd be even better if you got rid of the 20 game minimum--that's gotta by specifically for Kyrie, unless we have had a bunch of walkons who scored 15 ppg during mop-up time.

[SupaDave]

May we at least see him on the floor before we grant him greatness?

Greatness? I haven't granted him any of that - but he's definitely got all the tools for it.

[sagegrouse]

Let me quote NBA rookie Michael What's-His-Name in 1984, when reporters asked if he were as good as Dr. J: "That's not fair to Dr. J., and it's not fair to me."

I think this question is not fair to a whole bunch of former Duke players who played multiple years and won many championships for the Blue Devils. For instance, JJ scored 40 points against Virginia on only 13 shots. Christian was 10-10 and 10-10 against Kentucky in the regional finals in 1992. And it certainly isn't fair to Austin.

I do think that Austin will start from day one and be a productive player. I am not willing to assume, for example, that Austin will be as good a freshman as Kyrie before he was injured. In fact, Kyrie was the best Duke freshman guard I ever saw in November and December.

I would judge Austin's freshman year success if -- in addition to team goals -- he is on one of the All-ACC first three teams. Offense is important, but I will be happy if he excells only in defense, maturity and academics his freshman year.

sagegrouse

[Devilsfan]

Short answer NO. It is always nice to dream though.

[ncexnyc]

May we at least see him on the floor before we grant him greatness?

How many times do you need to see a kid play before you say to yourself, "This kids got game?"

I watched KI, HB, and JS in last year's All-Star games and they clearly were head and shoulders above all the other players. I admit that young Mr. Rivers has had some ups and downs in the games I've watched him, but it's fairly obvious that he has all the tools necessary to be a great player at Duke.

I firmly believe that if Coach K devises a system which exploits Austin's skillset to the max, then you'll become a quick believer in this kid.

[moonpie23]

cool as the other side of the pillow...

[ACCBBallFan]

The best freshman scoring average - ever - was 18.1 ppg by Johnny Dawkins in '82-'83. Gene Banks is next with 17.1 ppg.

20 ppg is not particularly likely - especially with all of the firepower around him.

That was the freshman PPG record, though some players were inelible as frosh. Art Heyman averages 24.4 his soph year.

From a most points in any season standpoint, JJ Redick leads Duke with 964 in 36 games to average 26.8 PPG his senior year. Five other players have averaged over 20 PPG.

Austin's ability to challenge either Duke single season scoring record will depend to a large extent on how far Duke advances in NCAAT

964 2769-1 JJ Redick Redick 36 games @ 26.8 PPG
841 2079-8 Jason Williams 39 games @ 21.6 PPG
809 2556-2 Johnny Dawkins 40 games @ 20.2
791 2155-6 Danny Ferry 35 games @ 22.6
778 1984-12T Shane Battier 39 games @ 19.9
771 2460-3 Christian Laettner 39 games @ 19.8 jr and 751/35=21.5 sr.
747 1984-12T Art Heyman in only 30 games so @ 24.9 PPG second to JJ, also 609 in 25 games as soph for 24.4 and 608 in 24 games for 25.8 as jr. So all 3 years.
728 2077-10 Jon Scheyer 40 games @ 18.2 PPG
708 2012-11 Jim Spanarkel 34 games @ 20.8
707 2392-4 Kyle Singler 40 games @ 17.7
704 2323-5 Mike Gminski 33 games @ 21.3
686 2136-7 Mark Alaire 40 games @ 17.2
677 1928-15 Shelden Williams 36 games @ 18.8
591 1924-16 Grant Hill 34 games @ 17.4
581 2079-9 Gene Banks 34 games @ 17.1

[FireOgilvie]

That was the freshman PPG record, though some players were inelible as frosh. Art Heyman averages 24.4 his soph year.

From a most points in any season standpoint, JJ Redick leads Duke with 964 in 36 games to average 26.8 PPG his senior year. Five other players have averaged over 20 PPG.

Austin's ability to challenge either Duke single season scoring record will depend to a large extent on how far Duke advances in NCAAT

964 2769-1 JJ Redick Redick 36 games @ 26.8 PPG
841 2079-8 Jason Williams 39 games @ 21.6 PPG
809 2556-2 Johnny Dawkins 40 games @ 20.2
791 2155-6 Danny Ferry 35 games @ 22.6
778 1984-12T Shane Battier 39 games @ 19.9
771 2460-3 Christian Laettner 39 games @ 19.8 jr and 751/35=21.5 sr.
747 1984-12T Art Heyman in only 30 games so @ 24.9 PPG second to JJ, also 609 in 25 games as soph for 24.4 and 608 in 24 games for 25.8 as jr. So all 3 years.
728 2077-10 Jon Scheyer 40 games @ 18.2 PPG
708 2012-11 Jim Spanarkel 34 games @ 20.8
707 2392-4 Kyle Singler 40 games @ 17.7
704 2323-5 Mike Gminski 33 games @ 21.3
686 2136-7 Mark Alaire 40 games @ 17.2
677 1928-15 Shelden Williams 36 games @ 18.8
591 1924-16 Grant Hill 34 games @ 17.4
581 2079-9 Gene Banks 34 games @ 17.1

Nolan should be on there as well (764 pts this past season - 20.6 average over 37 games, and last year he had 660 pts over 38 games with a 17.4 pt average).

[verga]

Bob Verga:

1964-65 soph. 21.4 PPG 53.1% from the floor

1965-66 jr. 18.5 PPG 49.0% from the floor

1966-67 sr. 26.1 PPG 46.1% from the floor

plus he was a career 79% ft shooter

plus he scored 56 points in a freshmen game against Va. Tech when freshmen ball was played.

He clearly is the most overlooked player ever at Duke and probably the greatest shooter also , imho

[sagegrouse]

Bob Verga:

1964-65 soph. 21.4 PPG 53.1% from the floor

1965-66 jr. 18.5 PPG 49.0% from the floor

1966-67 sr. 26.1 PPG 46.1% from the floor

plus he was a career 79% ft shooter

plus he scored 56 points in a freshmen game against Va. Tech when freshmen ball was played.

He clearly is the most overlooked player ever at Duke and probably the greatest shooter also , imho

You left out the absence of the 3pt shot, which would have boosted Verga's PPG substantially.

sagegrouse

[darjum]

I just started wondering if we've ever had a player with the combination of shooting range, killer instinct, driving ability, and all-around offensive repertoire that Austin Rivers will be bringing to Duke next year?

Who would be considered the best offensive player to ever have played for Duke? I've only been watching Duke play since 1990, but Christian, Jay Williams, and JJ come to mind right off the bat. But did those guys have the complete game of Rivers? I know it's hard to compare guys that play different positions, but I just thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion.

By the way, who are the top scorers for an individual season in Duke history? I wonder if Austin might be able to top that as a freshman. We'll certainly be relying on him heavily for scoring next year. I'm getting excited for next year already!

How is this question to be measured. Do you only take into account his time at Duke, maybe one or two years, or is it a referendum on where you think his talents will take him as a pro also.

As a player at Duke there is no doubt he won't get close. Way too much competition, as has been well pointed out within subsequent answers to the initial question. However, if you are asking could Rivers project as Duke's all-time leader in points scored as a professional then the answer would be yes. He has the necessary tools to be a productive scorer at the pro level and with his heritage and potential for a fairly long career (injuries not withstanding) it would not be amazing to seem him become Duke's all-time leader in points scored as a professional in the NBA.

But in the end from my opinion the answer is no. As with DukieinSoCal (started the thread) I have only been watching Duke since the 90's and in my time JJ's Senior season wins the "best scorer" award (Of course if Deng still would have been on that team JJ doesn't need to score as much, but that's an argument for another day)

[heyman25]

Bob Verga:

1964-65 soph. 21.4 PPG 53.1% from the floor

1965-66 jr. 18.5 PPG 49.0% from the floor

1966-67 sr. 26.1 PPG 46.1% from the floor

plus he was a career 79% ft shooter

plus he scored 56 points in a freshmen game against Va. Tech when freshmen ball was played.


He clearly is the most overlooked player ever at Duke and probably the greatest shooter also , imho

He was also one of the coolest players off the court. I think he is a tennis pro at a Country Club now.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7978/index.htm

[ACCBBallFan]

Thanks for the additional info on Nolan Smith and Bob Verga to add two more guys with one or more 20 PPG seasons.

I went with the odds and checked the top dozen or so all time, plus tripped on a couple others inthe process.

Though I never saw them play, I would guess you can safely add Art Heyman with 3 seasons greater than 20 PPG and Bob Verga with two to list of guys who were unguardable.

[gwlaw99]

Austin is a great player, but I look at him and Grant Hill play and he doesn't seem to be in quite the same level as Grant. He may score more points, but that doesn't mean he is a better scorer.

[PADukeMom]

Don't get me wrong I am thrilled to have Austin playing for us even if it is for a year. However to become the greatest scorer in DUKE history you have to stay in school for 4 years & that probably won't happen.
I will enjoy Austin while we have him I won't tempt the GODS.

[Newton_14]

I have no doubt that Austin will be an impact player in year 1, and scoring is one of his strengths. That said, you judge careers, and decide "best ever", "best since", etc AFTER the career is over, not before it starts.

Last summer folks were trying to determine where the 2010-11 team would "rank in Duke history", and where Kyrie would rank in terms of Duke greats, all before the ball was tossed in the first game of the season.

I would just caution folks to let Austin run his race like any other player, and once he hangs up the Duke Jersey to head to the NBA, decide on his place in Duke history.

Will he be a really good/great scorer? I would say it's likely, but there will be a learning curve and growing pains.

I am looking forward to seeing Austin in the Duke uni. Can we just skip June and July and get to the Summer League and China trip right now?

On another note, is Austin going to wear Number 0? If not, anyone know what number he and the other freshmen will wear?

[kylecpalmer]

Perhaps, but it's worth noting that in the time he was able to play for Duke, Irving did not just live up to the hype, he exceeded it.

I totally agree with you. I have to ask, do you think it helped our team for him to come back and play in the tournament?

[MarkD83]

I have not read the whole thread so if this was already mentioned I apologize.

I hope that Austin is an exceptional player but I hope he is NOT the best scorer ever at Duke. Next year Duke needs everyone to contribute and not stand around and watch Austin score.