Playmaking Backcourts

[gw67]

Both Duke and Maryland have had some great playmaking guards – Hurley, Duhon, Amaker, JWill, Blake, Lucas and Davis; however, based on my memory, no ACC team has had a backcourt that averages over 13 assists a game like the current Maryland backcourt of Vasquez and Hayes. Vasquez is the risk taker like Brad Davis while Hayes is solid like Blake. The only comparable playmaking backcourt that I could think of is Duhon and JWill. The link for Charlie Board didn’t work for me so I looked at some data on ESPN and it appears that Duhon and JWill maxed out at a little over 11 assists per game. I don’t believe that any of Hurley, Cota, Blake or Corchiani and their backcourt mates would have approached 13 apg.

gw67

[gw67]

I got befuddled when I couldn't get the Charlie Board link to work this morning. Vasquez and Hayes are averaging 13.6 apg during ACC games but "only" 12.2 apg during the season. My previous point still stands. I don't recall any ACC backcourt duo who has averaged more over a season or in ACC games only.

gw67

[dkbaseball]

I don't recall that they were on the floor together that much in the '70-'71 season, but I doubt if two better assist men have played together in the ACC than the two lefties, Dick DeVenzio and Gary Melchionni.

[sandinmyshoes]

Back in the fifties, sixties and seventies the two guard was often more of a combo guard, but the pace of the game was slower, so I doubt there are as many candidates from those eras.

The advent of the shot clock was about the same time that the two guards for elite teams were often more like the small forwards of earlier eras. So I'm guessing that the most likely candidates would be from non-elite programs or teams where they often still go with what we would now consider undersized two guards.

[Olympic Fan]

Actually, the pace of the game in the 50s and 60s and into the early 70s was faster than we play today with the shot clock. The three highest scoring teams in ACC history were Duke in 1965, NC State in 1973 and NC State in 1975. With one small blip in the late 1950s when UNC slowed things down with its zone, ACC teams played a frantic pace until Dean Smith introduced the delay game -- using it a few times in the late 1960s, then more and more frequently as the 70s wore on.

The problem is that assists weren't always counted until 1973 -- and for about a decade after those totals were kept, there was little consistency as to what an assist was -- for much of the 70s, Virginia's stat crew would award 5-6 assists a game ... Clemson would award an assist on almost every basket.

You are right that the Vasquez/Hayes average of 12.2 assists a game does seem to be a new high. I don't have access to every team, but the highest Duke totals I can find:

Williams/Duhon (2002) -- 11.3 assists
Hurley/GHill (1992) -- 11.2 assists
Amaker/Dawkins (1985) -- 10.9 assists
Willians/Duhon (2001) -- 10.6 assists

PS DeVenizio and Melchionni averaged less than six assists a game COMBINED in 1971 (Duke did keep the stat in that season).

[dkbaseball]

PS DeVenizio and Melchionni averaged less than six assists a game COMBINED in 1971 (Duke did keep the stat in that season).

That's very surprising, given that both players were pass-oriented and very talented assist men, and I'm curious if you have any theories. Even if that team didn't get out on the break near as much as DeVenzio would have wanted, it seems to me that all you'd have to do to get an assist, as they're determined today, would be to throw the ball down low to Denton, or hit Katherman spotting up, or penetrate and dish to Saunders for a baseline jumper. But weren't assists harder to come by in those days, and awarded only for a particularly creative pass, where the passer clearly deserved the greater credit?

[sandinmyshoes]

I stand corrected!

I'm guessing that defense has garnered more emphasis, along with even more emphasis on ball movement? Something has to explain why it would be a faster pace without the shotclock. Of course, I guess the shot clock was installed to bring the pace back to where it had been. I wonder if there was more separation between the haves and have-nots of basketball just before the shot clock's inception? More teams were trying to slow down the haves in an effort to pull the upset. UNC's four corners can't account for all of the change of pace. It's just one team playing maybe 25-30 games out of a season with thousands of games.

[MIKESJ73]

Travis Best and Jon Barry combined for 11.6 assists per game in 92. I was surprised to find out that Mark Price never averaged over 4.4 assists per game at GT. I initially was looking for Anderson/Scott/Oliver, but they weren't close either. Thats the closest I could find.

[MIKESJ73]

Corchiani 9.6 and Monroe 2.8 only 12.4

[MIKESJ73]

Hayes and Vasquez are only averaging 12.2 assists per game according to espn

[Indoor66]

That's very surprising, given that both players were pass-oriented and very talented assist men, and I'm curious if you have any theories. Even if that team didn't get out on the break near as much as DeVenzio would have wanted, it seems to me that all you'd have to do to get an assist, as they're determined today, would be to throw the ball down low to Denton, or hit Katherman spotting up, or penetrate and dish to Saunders for a baseline jumper. But weren't assists harder to come by in those days, and awarded only for a particularly creative pass, where the passer clearly deserved the greater credit?

You are definitely correct. In those "olden times" assists were very subjective - and awarded quite differently from one scorer to another. In actuality they were, seemingly, grudgingly given.

[gw67]

MikeSJ73 - Good find. I really enjoyed watching "Fire and Ice" play. I am surprised that Monroe had many assists at all. He was a offensive machine from all areas of the floor.

I did correct myself in the second post to this thread. They are averaging 13.6 apg in ACC play and when I added their regular season stats, I botched the math.

gw67

[dcarp23]

Until I read the Basketball Prospectus preview on the game tonight, I did not realize that Vazquez was 6'5. The UMTerps website lists him as 6'6. Pretty imposing for a guy like that.

[jimsumner]

Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver averaged a combined 11.4 apg in 1990 and somehow also managed to combine for 41.9 ppg and 11.5 rpg. Hard to beat that.

[gw67]

dcarp - I'm pretty sure that Vasquez is offically 6-6 on the Maryland and ACC sites. Similarly, Hayes grew an inch over the summer and is officially 6-4. I seem to recall Williams joking earlier in the season about the both of them still growing. I don't pretend to know whether their heights are with or without shoes. Because of their size, both are decent rebounders and defenders against the threes. Both take some heat from Terps fans because they sometimes have a difficult time with the small, quick guards (sound familiar). The reality is that Vasquez has defensed Lawson and Rice as well as anyone in the ACC.

gw67

[Olympic Fan]

I stand corrected!

I'm guessing that defense has garnered more emphasis, along with even more emphasis on ball movement? Something has to explain why it would be a faster pace without the shotclock. Of course, I guess the shot clock was installed to bring the pace back to where it had been. I wonder if there was more separation between the haves and have-nots of basketball just before the shot clock's inception? More teams were trying to slow down the haves in an effort to pull the upset. UNC's four corners can't account for all of the change of pace. It's just one team playing maybe 25-30 games out of a season with thousands of games.

Remember the scene in Hoosiers where George the Barber is coaching the team and he yells at them, "Shoot the ball! Don't pass it, shoot the ball! You can't score if you don't shoot the ball."

That was actually the mentality of most coaches in the 1950s and 1960s. Teams shot quickly, taking a lot of what we would consider bad shots. When you look at the numbers, shooting percentages were much lower (and because the games were at a fast tempo and there were a lot of missed shots) all the highest rebound totals are from that era.

I took a kind of shot at Dean for slowing things down ... in part that's fair because he introduced the idea of holding the ball at the end of games. But he was also one of the first coaches to emphasize the importance of getting a good shot ... and since it usually takes longer to get a good shot than a bad one, that had the effect of slowing the pace of the game down a bit.

But it was the delay game that forced the shot clock. While the overall tempo was slightly slower in the late 70s and early 80s, it was the endgame situtaions that slowed things to a crawl -- and that is Dean's fault.

Except for one or two isolated games (like the 1966 ACC Tourney semifinals), it started with holding it for the last minute or two. By Phil Ford's era, Dean would go to the delay with four-five-six-eight minutes left. Naturally, because he was successful, other teams copied him. Holding at the end of the game became so normal that when the ACC experimented with a 30 second shot clock in 1983, then turned it off for the last four minutes so teams could play stallball.

It got so the normal ACC game was 32 minutes of basketball and eight minutes of delay game. THAT's what really slowed things down.

[balkan boy]

MikeSJ73 - Good find. I really enjoyed watching "Fire and Ice" play. I am surprised that Monroe had many assists at all. He was a offensive machine from all areas of the floor.
gw67

I second that - loved watching those 2 play and also a little surprised about monroe's assists.

Balkan boy

[MIKESJ73]

The only guards that I can compare to the Anderson/Oliver numbers are the Anderson/Scott numbers in the same year - 48.3 pts, 12.1 rebs, and 10.1 assists per game. I hated GT, but Cremins sure could recruit. He had the ACC freshman of the year for what seemed like two decades. My dad graduated from NCSU, so I also loved watching "fire and ice". I remember Monroe scoring 36 pts in the 2nd half against GT his senior year. He ended up with around 48 pts and the game nearly went into overtime.

[MIKESJ73]

Looks like my memory is a little off, 31 pts in the second half, 48 total.

Where is he now link:

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/...asp?CID=550867

[greybeard]

In old days, don't know if got assist off a jump shot. If did, many shooters, unlike now, would often try to get closer; ergo, no assist.

Lucas, Davis, and Mo didn't have lots and lots per game?