Sweet 16/Elite 8 discussion thread

[sbroc012]

well at this point in time...given it looks like the Tar Heels could possibly make the final...wouldnt it be poetic justice if Butler and the Tar Heels played for the title and Butler won! I would be able to hold that above every UNC fans' head for ages!

[RoyalBlue08]

Kansas was 2-22 for the three point line. Kansas is too reliant on the three point shot. They need a better big man coach.

[loran16]

Guys Guys. UK should be a favorite over UNC. They've grown just as much as UNC since their matchup (in that game, they relied upon Terrence Jones entirely) and ranks as the best team left in the tourney by Pomeroy.

UNC even GETTING to the F4 isn't yet decided. Don't panic.

Also, this tourney is crazy awesome.

[Atlanta Duke]

Kansas getting Arizona'd by VCU right now...

hey Jay bilas....tell me again why they don't deserve to be in...

Jay anticipates this question may come up

Final Four or out in 1st Round, Selection argument against VCU and UAB still the same. Neither w/ better credentials than CU, VT, UA, SM.

http://twitter.com/JayBilas/status/52091844854689792

[cspan37421]

This is further evidence that the NCAA tournament is not really in any way a quality measure of the best team in the NCAA. You have to be really good to win the tournament. But winning it doesn't show you were the best. You were just the team that did the best in the tournament.

VCU was one of the teams that everyone panned as undeserving of an entry. They were not one of the best 32 teams in the country. Yet they are going to the Final Four. Good for them - they've done a lot in this tournament even if they didn't really earn the right to be in the tournament originally. But it's just further evidence against the idea that the tourney proves who was the best team.

Paragraph 1: you leave yourself wide open for criticism that the ACCT should not determine the ACC Champion, because it is based on 3 games (most/all years) not 16.

Incidentally, this is why, I suspect, we have a few #1 banners hanging from years we did not win the NCAAT.

Paragraph 2: [perhaps] you mean not one of the best at large teams. [I don't recall if they were automatic qualifiers, but I infer not since there was such an argument about their inclusion]. But I agree with you here. That they were not deserving on March 13, but got in anyway, is not changed by their subsequent unlikely and remarkable performance.

BTW, I saw that there have only been two 11 seeds to make the Final Four (Geo. Mason and ... I forget). Did either of them have to beat a #1 to get there? Have any lower seeds made it - i.e., 12 or worse?

[cspan37421]

well at this point in time...given it looks like the Tar Heels could possibly make the final...wouldnt it be poetic justice if Butler and the Tar Heels played for the title and Butler won! I would be able to hold that above every UNC fans' head for ages!

That would be great - "Yeah, well we beat them when they had Hayward."

[El_Diablo]

Jay anticipates this question may come up

Final Four or out in 1st Round, Selection argument against VCU and UAB still the same. Neither w/ better credentials than CU, VT, UA, SM.

http://twitter.com/JayBilas/status/52091844854689792

I'll give Jay credit: he does stick to his guns.

Even when it makes him look like a fool.

[Atlanta Duke]

This is further evidence that the NCAA tournament is not really in any way a quality measure of the best team in the NCAA. You have to be really good to win the tournament. But winning it doesn't show you were the best. You were just the team that did the best in the tournament.

VCU was one of the teams that everyone panned as undeserving of an entry. They were not one of the best 32 teams in the country. Yet they are going to the Final Four. Good for them - they've done a lot in this tournament even if they didn't really earn the right to be in the tournament originally. But it's just further evidence against the idea that the tourney proves who was the best team.

Ask anyone who was the best team in 1990-91 and the honest answer is UNLV. Ask anyone who was the best team in 2009-10 and I doubt many will respond Duke. I for one am not contending Duke should take down those banners

Three of the last 6 Super Bowl champions (2005 Steelers/2007 Giants/2010 Packers) have been the #6 seed and several baseball teams have won as wildcards

That is how a playoff system works

[sbroc012]

That would be great - "Yeah, well we beat them when they had Hayward."

more so, just the fact we beat in the championship last year and in a rematch this year...at this point that would be the best result possible...of course im not against the Tar Heels losing sooner

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

Really? So you are taking Kenny "I'm not biased toward UNC" Smith's side on this one? I about busted a gut listening to him tell us at the half how VCU wasn't playing out of their mind but instead were just playing how they should be. Come on, Kenny. If VCU shot 53% from 3 for the year then Kenny might have a point. But they didn't and he knows it. Look, it was going to take a combination of VCU playing above their heads and Kansas laying an egg for the upset to happen. There's no shame in saying that. But to say this isn't a shock or that VCU is somehow the better team is crazy, IMHO.

Really? It's crazy? VCU's path to this game was 10x harder than that of Kansas. They beat USC handily, absolutely crushed Purdue and Georgetown, beat a team that beat Duke couldn't in Florida State, and knocked off #1 Kansas. VCU is a good team playing great basketball. They were 48% from behind the arc today and are 36.67 percent as a team overall. Rounded up, VCU knocked down three more 3's then their average would suggest. Which mind you they have done several times this season (and they also have shot below their average... its how you get to an average). VCU wasn't hitting ugly shots, Kansas did a poor job defending the arc.

Kansas didn't play great basketball partly if not mostly because VCU did an outstanding job defending. VCU was knocking shots down today, but not in any kind of godly fashion. They were the better team, they have been for the last 2 weeks, this wasn't a 1 game fluke of them playing 'above their heads' and they deserve a helluva lot more respect than your giving them.

[CDu]

Paragraph 1: you leave yourself wide open for criticism that the ACCT should not determine the ACC Champion, because it is based on 3 games (most/all years) not 16.

Incidentally, this is why, I suspect, we have a few #1 banners hanging from years we did not win the NCAAT.

I leave myself open to that "criticism" because I agree with it. The ACC (and NCAA) tournaments are fun, but they are not proof of who the best team in the conference (or country). The tournament champion can certainly be the best team, but the tournament is rarely proof.

Paragraph 2: [perhaps] you mean not one of the best at large teams. [I don't recall if they were automatic qualifiers, but I infer not since there was such an argument about their inclusion]. But I agree with you here. That they were not deserving on March 13, but got in anyway, is not changed by their subsequent unlikely and remarkable performance.

BTW, I saw that there have only been two 11 seeds to make the Final Four (Geo. Mason and ... I forget). Did either of them have to beat a #1 to get there? Have any lower seeds made it - i.e., 12 or worse?

Yes, I did mean one of the top at-large teams (I should have said 37).

George Mason beat UConn (the #1) to make it. LSU (1986) was the other #11 seed to make it. I don't know if they beat a #1 or not.

[Eternal Outlaw]

Paragraph 1: you leave yourself wide open for criticism that the ACCT should not determine the ACC Champion, because it is based on 3 games (most/all years) not 16.

Incidentally, this is why, I suspect, we have a few #1 banners hanging from years we did not win the NCAAT.

Paragraph 2: you mean not one of the best at large teams. But I agree with you here. That they were not deserving on March 13, but got in anyway, is not changed by their subsequent unlikely and remarkable performance.

BTW, I saw that there have only been two 11 seeds to make the Final Four (Geo. Mason and ... I forget). Did either of them have to beat a #1 to get there? Have any lower seeds made it - i.e., 12 or worse?

George Mason had to beat that loaded UConn team to make the Final Four that was a 1 seed. They also beat 7 seed Wichita State, 3 seed UNC and 6 seed Michigan State. 11 seed LSU in 86 beat 1 seed Kentucky, 2 seed Georgia Tech, 3 seed Memphis State, and 6 seed Purdue.

[dukelifer]

It's amazing how wildly and quickly this rivalry can swing. As of November/December 2009, things looked really bleak for the rivalry from our perspective. UNC had just come off a national championship, had just landed the monster recruiting class and gotten the recruit we all wanted and we had only three guards on the roster. Then, 6 months later, things looked amazing for us. As of November 2010, we were on top of the world. Top ranking, best freshman in the country, coming off a championship, and UNC was struggling. Now, there's a very realistic possibility that UNC will have another championship 8+ days from now. And we are in the position of having to cheer for either Kentucky or UConn to keep UNC from doing it (or hoping for a bigger upset). Rough.

One thing people keep forgetting about last year is that UNC lost a key player from their squad mid season and were never the same. UNC was not as bad and Duke was not as good as Duke fans had imagined them to be. UNC this year is better than last year- but not great- but still they could easily win it all as they are the best seed remaining. Duke was not the best team in the country last year but good enough to win it all- so is UNC, KY- UConn and Butler. If VCU wins it all- I have no explanation. This tourney can weed the best out- pressure, expectations and a bad night can knock out even a great team on any given night. UNC has been the best in the country many years and did not win it all- maybe this year they will win when not being the best. I would prefer not to see it- but I can understand if they do.

[sporthenry]

Really? It's crazy? VCU's path to this game was 10x harder than that of Kansas. They beat USC handily, absolutely crushed Purdue and Georgetown, beat a team that beat Duke couldn't in Florida State, and knocked off #1 Kansas. VCU is a good team playing great basketball. They were 48% from behind the arc today and are 36.67 percent as a team overall. Rounded up, VCU knocked down three more 3's then their average would suggest. Which mind you they have done several times this season (and they also have shot below their average... its how you get to an average). VCU wasn't hitting ugly shots, Kansas did a poor job defending the arc.

Kansas didn't play great basketball partly if not mostly because VCU did an outstanding job defending. VCU was knocking shots down today, but not in any kind of godly fashion. They were the better team, they have been for the last 2 weeks, this wasn't a 1 game fluke of them playing 'above their heads' and they deserve a helluva lot more respect than your giving them.

Great job defending the FT line? Where KU left 13 points on the floor? KU choked as much as VCU played well. This is the trend set by one and dones, teams falling apart. Although its weird to see Duke or KU fall apart since they were mostly led by older guys but these best teams have look rattled for most of this tournament.

VCU was the better team today but they are not better than KU. If VCU shoots 40% from 3 above their average and KU shoots 20% from 3 below their average, KU wins. Say what you want about VCU's defense and offense but they just got hot at the right time.

[anon]

This is further evidence that the NCAA tournament is not really in any way a quality measure of the best team in the NCAA. You have to be really good to win the tournament. But winning it doesn't show you were the best. You were just the team that did the best in the tournament.

VCU was one of the teams that everyone panned as undeserving of an entry. They were not one of the best 32 teams in the country. Yet they are going to the Final Four. Good for them - they've done a lot in this tournament even if they didn't really earn the right to be in the tournament originally. But it's just further evidence against the idea that the tourney proves who was the best team.

But what would do better?

[Saratoga2]

VCU has some size, is quick and aggressive, has two point guards and has some shooters. They play a relentless style which seems to tire out and rattle the other team. They are very well coached and deserve to be where they are. Any other point about the best team somehow not being identified by the tournament is double think.

Actually, VCU reminds me of Arizona in a lot of ways. Arizona destroyed Duke and should have beated UCONN to advance. VCU plays in a similar way except at a faster and pace. Did you see Marquis Morris bent over trying to catch his breath near the end of the game?

We will see two excellent coaches matching up when Butler and VCU collide.

[J4Kop99]

VCU has some size, is quick and aggressive, has two point guards and has some shooters. They play a relentless style which seems to tire out and rattle the other team. They are very well coached and deserve to be where they are. Any other point about the best team somehow not being identified by the tournament is double think.

Actually, VCU reminds me of Arizona in a lot of ways. Arizona destroyed Duke and should have beated UCONN to advance. VCU plays in a similar way except at a faster and pace. Did you see Marquis Morris bent over trying to catch his breath near the end of the game?

We will see two excellent coaches matching up when Butler and VCU collide.

Why should Arizona have beaten Uconn?

[sporthenry]

Why should Arizona have beaten Uconn?

Well naturally b/c they beat Duke.

[SMO]

Kansas was 2-22 for the three point line. Kansas is too reliant on the three point shot. They need a better big man coach.

They needed a Lance Thomas out there today. Or a Brian Zoubek. Morningstar played too many minutes in a game 4 weeks ago and was still tired. They need a true point guard. Bill Self can't recruit athletic guys.

At least Kansas State and Texas got knocked out first.

[fisheyes]

I'll give Jay credit: he does stick to his guns.

Even when it makes him look like a fool.

or a lawyer