Whom would you rather play Thursday?

[Newton_14]

Another good point made by the studio analysts -- if Jordan Hamilton stays square on that last basket, he probably gets the call. It was absolutely a foul the way he turned away, but he had position and if he stays square he **should** get the call.

Just an effort/hustle/focus issue that great teams avoid.

I saw it the exact same way. He had an easy charge there by staying square and taking the hit. Not only did he turn, he also lunged and threw his left shoulder into Williams. Terrible defensive play there at the worst possible time.

[77devil]

you must be blind. watch it again. he got knocked down.

I did, several times in slow motion. Hardly blind, just objective. Take off the burnt orange glasses.

[SCMatt33]

Didn't Butler call TO around the 4 second count towards the end of the title game last year?

No, I just watched it twice. Hayward called the TO just as the ref was moving his arm for the fourth time. The way I see it, he called it at exactly 4, not after. One important difference I noticed, however, was that the ref in the title game gave him the ball with his right hand and then started his 5 count. Today, the ref gave Texas the ball with his left hand and simultaneously started the 5 count with his right. It seems that without the delay by using the same hand "one" actually happens at zero and "four" happens at the start of the fourth second, and "five" happened at the start of the 5th second, not the end, normally I don't listen to Charles Barkley (and neither does anyone else), but he was trying to make this point on the post-game show and everyone ignored him. I don't know if one way is correct, but it definitely didn't work in Texas' favor.

[texas]

here's a good view

[uh_no]

here's a good view

he screwed up royally. no doubt about it...and counting is close to his only duty there...

[Newton_14]

he screwed up royally. no doubt about it...and counting is close to his only duty there...

Actually, the video proves the ref got it right. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the player is not allowed to call timeout once the count gets to 4. The count clearly got to 4 there. The only mistake I see is rather than just ignoring the timeout request and making the 5th arm motion, the ref immediately calls the 5 second count. But even with that, the Texas player was not going to beat the count.

[uh_no]

Actually, the video proves the ref got it right. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the player is not allowed to call timeout once the count gets to 4. The count clearly got to 4 there. The only mistake I see is rather than just ignoring the timeout request and making the 5th arm motion, the ref immediately calls the 5 second count. But even with that, the Texas player was not going to beat the count.

I'd call calling a 5 second violation after 4 seconds to be a pretty big screwup...as well as counting 1 after 0 seconds...

[Newton_14]

I'd call calling a 5 second violation after 4 seconds to be a pretty big screwup...as well as counting 1 after 0 seconds...

You are missing the point. By rule he cannot grant the timeout there. He got to 4 using his method of counting. If there is a rule that dictates when he can start the count, then fine, but that is not clear. What is clear is that he got to 4 and correctly denied the timeout request. The only mistake I see is not making the 5th count, but like I said, there is no way the Texas kid gets the ball inbounded before the ref gets to the 5th count because he had abandoned his attempt to get it inbounds at that point.

[Bluedog]

Not that I necessarily trust Doug Gottlieb but...

http://twitter.com/gottliebshow

Vet move is this, Cory Joesph can learn from it, go to the ref b4 inbounds and tell him if it goes to 4 we want a TO. Yes that is done.

You can tell the ref you want a TO at four seconds before you attempt to inbounds it? Huh? You can actually do that? This day has really been a lot of clarification or rules. When the clock stops (whistle vs. ball out of bounds), not being able to call TO after 4 seconds, questionable over and back, etc.

[tbyers11]

You are missing the point. By rule he cannot grant the timeout there. He got to 4 using his method of counting. If there is a rule that dictates when he can start the count, then fine, but that is not clear. What is clear is that he got to 4 and correctly denied the timeout request. The only mistake I see is not making the 5th count, but like I said, there is no way the Texas kid gets the ball inbounded before the ref gets to the 5th count because he had abandoned his attempt to get it inbounds at that point.

The rule that you can't call a timeout after the 4 second mark has been off the books for a long time now. You can call a timeout all the way to the end of the 5 seconds.

[uh_no]

You are missing the point. By rule he cannot grant the timeout there. He got to 4 using his method of counting. If there is a rule that dictates when he can start the count, then fine, but that is not clear. What is clear is that he got to 4 and correctly denied the timeout request. The only mistake I see is not making the 5th count, but like I said, there is no way the Texas kid gets the ball inbounded before the ref gets to the 5th count because he had abandoned his attempt to get it inbounds at that point.

i take back all that I said....the timeout was called at about the 4.57 second mark... and the 5 second call was at about 4.86 seconds (which is a little quick, as the count usually gives the benefit of the doubt to the passer)

edit: in reference to the previous post, apparently the ref was not correct if that rule is in fact off the books

[sporthenry]

The rule that you can't call a timeout after the 4 second mark has been off the books for a long time now. You can call a timeout all the way to the end of the 5 seconds.

Yes, Seth Davis is reporting that you can call the timeout at any time up to the 5 second call. So another bad call. Man, I know these refs come under additional scrutiny but they are anticipating way too many calls and almost want to go out blowing their whistle so another BE tourney doesn't happen.

[Bluedog]

Seth Davis:

My earlier tweet was incorrect. A player can call a time out up until the ref counts to five. Rule changed several years ago. Apologies.

REF FAIL! Twice today...how can refs not know the rules?!?!

[Newton_14]

i take back all that I said....the timeout was called at about the 4.57 second mark... and the 5 second call was at about 4.86 seconds (which is a little quick, as the count usually gives the benefit of the doubt to the passer)

edit: in reference to the previous post, apparently the ref was not correct if that rule is in fact off the books

If the rule has been taken out, then I apologize. I knew the rule went in, I have never heard though that it was done away with. If that is the case, then the timeout should have been granted and the ref did screw up.

[tbyers11]

Seth Davis:



REF FAIL! Twice today...how can refs not know the rules?!?!

3 times actually. Andy Glockner's twitter (@aglock) is all over the fact that the refs screwed up a backcourt violation call off an inbounds pass against Syracuse in a tie game with under a minute left. Gus and Len never questioned the call during the game but it seemed wrong to me.

[sporthenry]

3 times actually. Andy Glockner's twitter (@aglock) is all over the fact that the refs screwed up a backcourt violation call off an inbounds pass against Syracuse in a tie game with under a minute left. Gus and Len never questioned the call during the game but it seemed wrong to me.

So how long until K has a red flag in his sock?

[tbyers11]

So how long until K has a red flag in his sock?

Probably not that long. Doesn't seem like K would like that rule much, though. I think he would make Chris Collins put it in his sock

[NashvilleDevil]

Gus and Len never questioned the call during the game but it seemed wrong to me.

But we all know that Len would be screaming from the mountain if that happened to Syracuse against Duke.

[sporthenry]

Probably not that long. Doesn't seem like K would like that rule much, though. I think he would make Chris Collins put it in his sock

I was thinking that although I think he would enjoy it like Bellichick and make it a spectacle every time he reaches for it. It is amazing to think of how much K has had to learn by way of the game changing in the past 20 years between players leaving early to the physicality of the game.

But it will be interesting to see how basketball evolves with this b/c it is probably the hardest game to implement these things b/c it is a constant game unlike football where the play is dead every 7 seconds.

[Neals384]

i take back all that I said....the timeout was called at about the 4.57 second mark... and the 5 second call was at about 4.86 seconds (which is a little quick, as the count usually gives the benefit of the doubt to the passer)

edit: in reference to the previous post, apparently the ref was not correct if that rule is in fact off the books

I also timed it with a stopwatch and the timeout request was made at about 4.45 seconds - peretty close to your 4.57. And I checked the rulebook - there is nothing about a 4 second limit.

Conclusion - Texas got hosed.

Lesson learned for Duke - no more close games...when you're up 15, close 'em out!