Verizon FIOS versus Comcast

[bluelou]

I'm moving in the boston area soon, and am trying to decide between getting comcast (which is the only cable provider where I'll be living) or trying out Verizon FIOS for my internet and TV. I figured I'd take a shot and see if anyone had any experience with FIOS? Comcast forces you to take their "triple play" and then kills you on installation charges. FIOS is a little cheaper (not enough to really matter) but installation is free. I just don't know anything about the reliability or quality of service. Any tips or thoughts would be appreciated!

-Lou

[BlueDiablo]

I'm moving in the boston area soon, and am trying to decide between getting comcast (which is the only cable provider where I'll be living) or trying out Verizon FIOS for my internet and TV. I figured I'd take a shot and see if anyone had any experience with FIOS? Comcast forces you to take their "triple play" and then kills you on installation charges. FIOS is a little cheaper (not enough to really matter) but installation is free. I just don't know anything about the reliability or quality of service. Any tips or thoughts would be appreciated!

-Lou

I've got FiOs Internet and it's great. Very speedy, very reliable. I tried FiOs TV, but didn't like the hardware or channel selection they had at the time and switched back to Dish Network.

[billybreen]

I live in the Boston area and currently have Comcast, but I'm switching to FIOS as soon as they get a TV franchise in my town. The number of channels, especially HD channels, I could get for the same money is much higher than Comcast, and they provide CableCards that work in my Tivo Series3, so it will be easy to replace my existing service.

My boss just switched to FIOS for broadband, and he gets very close to 20Mbps down and 5 up. On Comcast, I get about 15 down and 2 up. Again, the prices are comparable. The only downside with FIOS is that they block upstream ports 80 and (I think) 25, so you can't run your own web and mail server like I currently do.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

My boss just switched to FIOS for broadband, and he gets very close to 20Mbps down and 5 up. On Comcast, I get about 15 down and 2 up. Again, the prices are comparable. The only downside with FIOS is that they block upstream ports 80 and (I think) 25, so you can't run your own web and mail server like I currently do.

WOW! That's blazing in both directions. On Time Warner's standard cable service, rated at 5 Mbps down, I get 4.2 down and only 352 kpbs up.

[billybreen]

WOW! That's blazing in both directions. On Time Warner's standard cable service, rated at 5 Mbps down, I get 4.2 down and only 352 kpbs up.

Yeah, I pay the extra $5/mo for slightly higher speeds, but I'm very lucky to be getting this level of service on Comcast. One of my coworkers lives downtown and gets about a 3rd of the rates I get in the suburbs.

And for FIOS to be 33% faster than what I have on the downstream side? Crazy.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

I'd definitely go with FiOS Internet and TV if you can get it.

While Comcast speeds are listed as up to 15M down, I don't know anyone that actually gets that speed, it's usually closer to 8-9Mbps, and even then service usually degrades during peak Internet-usage hours. All the speed tests I've seen show FiOS getting right at or above the advertised speeds, ie if you buy 15/2, you actually get 15/2.

As for TV, the HD lineup is better on FiOS (yes, they have NESN HD) and they are rolling out a new program guide this summer (http://verizonfios.com/img/) that looks much better than the Comcast IPG. The multi-room DVR is pretty cool too, in that you can have one TV for the house and then watch recorded shows on other non-DVR, set top boxes throughout the house. (my buddy has this in Richmond and likes it a lot)

[billybreen]

Well, I do get the advertised rates on Comcast. It's all about usage levels. On FIOS, you're much more likely to get the full bandwidth because you are an early adopter -- the upstream hops you are hitting are serving a much lower volume of users than with Comcast. That will likely change over time, but the FTTP technology of FIOS means they can serve a higher volume of users with much higher bandwidth per user than the cable infrastructure can bear, at least until DOCSIS 3.0 is prevalent.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

And GPON technology is already being deployed within Verizon's FTTP network, which will allow them to offer 400Mbps, up from the 100Mbps that FiOS is capable of doing now.

Note: you won't see 100Mbps offers in the market anytime soon, although you can get 50M/5M in MA (for $180/mo)

-Tom

[hc5duke]

Comcast TV = horrible - worst quality cable tv feed I've ever seen. I know that doesn't answer the question, but if I had a choice to stay away from Comcast, I would

[bluelou]

sounds like verizon is worth a go...thanks for the info all. much appreciated!

[4decadedukie]

we have been stuck with Cox (coaxial cable) for MANY years. Their service, cost, and attitude has been simply terrible. Last year, however, we were the first Fairfax neighborhood to receive Verizon FIOS. While expensive (~$140 per month, including taxes and government fees), it includes full "cable" TV for two sets, unlimited local and long distance telephone, and extremely high-speed Internet access.

In aggregate, we have been pleased with Verizon service -- and the speed with which you access e-mail and the Internet are truly eye-watering.

Two negatives you should understand, however:
a) When you loose AC power, Verizon's backup battery (for the telephone) is relatively short-lived (a few hours). This is likely satisfactory for most outages, but for widespread failures (hurricanes, etc.) be certain your cellular telephone is changed and has extra batteries.
b) FIOS has several (five) equipment boxes (one quite large) that must be placed on your interior walls and/or desk surfaces. Verizon never informed us of this and it was upsetting to my wife, who is rather particular about our home's apperance.

In sum, get the Verizon FIOS service.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Two negatives you should understand, however:
a) When you loose AC power, Verizon's backup battery (for the telephone) is relatively short-lived (a few hours). This is likely satisfactory for most outages, but for widespread failures (hurricanes, etc.) be certain your cellular telephone is changed and has extra batteries.

As "the Board's" resident power protection expert (I sell it for a living), battery backup systems are for "minutes" of protection. Yes, some minutes might stretch to a few hours, but for long term outages today you need a fossil fuel powered backup generator (5 to 10 years from now solar power will/might be an option). I'm not talking about the small portable units (costing just a few hundred dollars and powered by gasoline), but the more expensive natural gas/propane or diesel powered units. The problem with the small gas powered units is their power quality is generally horrible. If you try to run something electronic with it, including new appliances with microprocessors in them, you will probably burn them up and ruin them. A good example is in Raleigh after Hurricane Fran back in 1996. Folks ran out and bought gas generators and then tried to run their fancy new dishwashers and refrigerators with them, only to burn out their power supplies and in some cases motherboards. Very expensive, non-warranty repairs. And don't even think about running a computer with one of those things! And the smaller, cheaper UPSs don't run on them either. If you have an APC UPS (and many many many people do, including me) the instruction sheet you didn't read when you bought it says something like "may not run on all generators", because the poor power quality the UPS sees puts it on battery to protect the downstream electronics, and then the battery uses up its available juice and everything shuts down.

Backup generators (Guardian, Kohler, Onan, etc.) can run you from $5,000 to $50,000 installed, and the fuel to run them for days can cost you hudreds to thousands more, but they do give you long term backup power security.

If a hurricane or ice storm knocks out your power for days or weeks, life gets very rough, and after a few days very old and no longer "fun". It is time to "get out of Dodge" and go find a hotel room somewhere where power and hot water are available.

[-jk]

Ozzie, you have me curious. I went through a week without power with a six week old baby back when Isabel came through here. Very not fun. Fran was bad enough in NC.

Can you direct me to options for a natural gas powered (we have gas furnace and hot water) generator for a smallish house (1000 sf now, 2300 sf when we someday add some space)?

-jk

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ozzie, you have me curious. I went through a week without power with a six week old baby back when Isabel came through here. Very not fun. Fran was bad enough in NC.

Can you direct me to options for a natural gas powered (we have gas furnace and hot water) generator for a smallish house (1000 sf now, 2300 sf when we someday add some space)?

-jk

Yes, but please contact me directly via email or Private Message and we'll take it offline. Where do you live?

[-jk]

Yes, but please contact me directly via email or Private Message and we'll take it offline. Where do you live?

I'm in the DC area, but I'm not doing anything imminently. I'm more just curious what's out there. I have an acquaintance on a farm in the mountains of NC who installed a propane generator, and is the envy of her neighbors. It just seems a neat idea, if the price is less than obscene.

I may be interested in doing something when (if) we expand our house. Some lights, a few appliances (refrigerator, microwave, washer), the furnace. Not the electric stove (I'll just grill ). Maybe AC, but that's a huge load, of course. A few circuits to make life more pleasant while waiting for the power to come back.

-jk

[Rich]

JK,

Last year we refinished our basement and, because we live in an area with a high water table and the water in our sump pit (a NJ thing) flooded our basement a few times prior, we installed a backup generator. It's the size of an air conditioner compressor and sits on the side of our house. I think we bought a 13kw (they also make 7kw, 10kw, 16kw and higher) made by Generac (www.generac.com). We live in a ranch and the 13kw pretty much runs the entire first floor of our house, garage door, and the sump pump, no problem. It runs our heat too, but it's not big enough for the air conditioner. It runs on natural gas directly from the utility company and has an automatic transfer switch, which means when the power goes off, it automatically comes on, whether we're home or not. And when the power comes back, it automatically goes off. It runs once per week automatically for a self-test, but our main power stays on so we don't even know that's happening except for the noise. It's way louder than your standard lawn mower. It costs about $300 for a yearly maintenance check (oil, spark plugs, fuel lines, etc.) and about $5500 total for the generator including installation. So far it's worked perfectly and has been great peace of mind. We didn't buy it as a luxury item, but it's nice when the power goes out and we're the only ones on the block with lights, tv and working fridge.

Let me know if you have any other questions. I'll keep checking the boards or you can send a private message.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Generac is the largest home generator supplier because of price. The are available through Home Depot and Lowe's, who will arrange for installation through a preferred installer. The Generac units are OK, but I've heard stories of quality problems, vibration problems and warranty service problems with them. But they are lower in price. You get what you pay for.

Kohler will cost you a couple/few thousand more for the purchase itself, and they have better voltage/frequency control (power quality) and generally higher reliability. Yes, I prefer to sell those over the Generac, but they are more costly.

As to size, starting the compressor on the AC/heat pump takes a larger capacity than running the AC. It is called "Lock Rotor Amps" - look on the lable of your outside compresser for something called LRA. Typically, you'll have about 30 LRA for each ton of capacity, i.e., a 3 ton AC will be about 90 LRA, a 4 ton about 120 LRA and a 5 ton is typically 169 LRA. A 16kW Generac will now start a 5 ton AC. A 12 kW Kohler will start a 4 ton AC. The manufacturers are trying to improve their starting capacity so smaller units will run larger units.

Rule of thumb: no one ever complained about having more power than they needed, but EVERYONE complains about having too little power. If you max out a generator, it will shut down to protect itself and boy will you be ticked off if that happens. jk, in your example above you should look at the 12 kW minimum but more realistically a 15/16 kW generator - smaller and you will save some money but you may be disappointed in capacity at some point, and you don't want to buy a second larger generator later. Same with fuel reserve if you use propane (LP gas) instead of natural gas. Larger tanks are better, but you are paying to inventory that gas until you need it, and propane gas costs between $2 and $3 a gallon, depending on where you live. Figure on burning between 1.5 and 4 gallns per hour when you run the generator, depending on generator size and running load. So you can easily spend $100/day or much more when you run the generator. And you thought your local power company was ripping you off...

Next question?

[Stray Gator]

Shortly after we bought our home in Tampa two years ago, I purchased a Generac 25KW Generator Model # 4725, which runs on natural gas. Fortunately, we haven't had any hurricanes since then--remember the old joke about how it keeps the elephants away?--but we've had a few brief power outages due to thunderstorms. Or at least that's what our neighbors tell us. With this unit, the only way we can tell there's been a power outage is if some of the digital clocks need to be reset, because the generator kicks in almost instantaneously and seamlessly, and runs everything in the house, including the AC.

Fully installed, including having someone run the connecting gas line under part of the house and through the garage, it cost around $15K. But I'm told it'll power everything in our house when operating at about 75% of its capacity, which was recommended to avoid straining the motor in case of an extended outage following a hurricane. (They tell me it can run continuously for 2 weeks without needing service, though I certainly hope we'll never have to find out.) And since it's basically an automobile engine, I paid extra to get the "quiet" model--something our neighbors appreciate. We pay about $175 to have it fully serviced once a year, and it automatically starts itself and runs a test cycle for about ten minutes once a week. It's a significant investment, but I've been told it will enhance the resale value of our home by as much as it cost. And it sure is comforting to know it's there if needed. I highly recommend it as a home improvement priority.

[-jk]

Interesting comments, all. Thanks!

We have natural gas, so we don't need a tank. I'd definitely want it to be quiet; we live way too close to our neighbors to want it loud.

Ozzie, you say it's $100 a day? Is that for propane, natural gas, or either? I have no idea the relative costs of the two. Though, I guess as compared to decamping to a hotel, it's competitive either way.

-jk

[Rich]

I could be wrong, and it's never been on long enough to find out (thank G-d), but I think the costs that Ozzie mentioned are for propane, not natural gas directly to the generator from the utility company.