The Fab 5 Documentary

[Chris Randolph]

Just watched Jalen Rose and Jimmy King discuss their thoughts and words about Duke on 1st and 10. Jimmy King shouldn't say much, he doesn't make much sense. Jalen makes sense and has a strong viewpoint. Skip Bayless speaks truth and Jalen and Jimmy don't want to hear it or accept it.

Duke recruited high character, intelligent, exceptional basketball players who came from a winning tradition. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I think it has worked out pretty well

They would NEVER admit it, but the Fab 5 are jealous of Duke

[Les Grossman]

and won nothing. All sizzle, no steak.
next....

[Orange&BlackSheep]

I didn't watch the documentary because I really never got the big deal about the "Fab Five." The whole hype surrounding them was all created by the media and then they never lived up to anything, never did anything overly impressive to me. I just remember Duke beating them for a NC, then never really thought about them again.

Now Jalen Rose does a documentary like there's something new, exciting, or interesting about the story? And many on this thread say it wasn't even close to accurate... not worth my time.

Wait ... so winning five games in the NCAAs is not impressive but winning six is? Y'all gotta be kidding me. Five freshman coming in and leading a team to a final game is INCREDIBLY impressive. If what you are saying is true, then what Butler did last near was not worthy of ever considering again.

[Reilly]

Dukebluesincebirth, I wouldn’t says their hype was all created by media and they never did anything overly impressive; moonpie23, I wouldn’t say they were just a fashion statement.

They made consecutive national championship games. Of course a lot of folks would be focusing on them then, just as a lot of folks focused on Phi Slamma Jamma’s run and G’town’s run in the early-to-mid-80s, and Duke’s run from 86-94 ... Michigan made three NC games in five years, and two in a row. What’s interesting to me is not that a lot of attention was paid to all those teams, but it seems that Florida in ’06 and ’07 didn’t get much attention comparatively.

[moonpie23]

Wait ... so winning five games in the NCAAs is not impressive but winning six is? Y'all gotta be kidding me. Five freshman coming in and leading a team to a final game is INCREDIBLY impressive. If what you are saying is true, then what Butler did last near was not worthy of ever considering again.

it's not that it's not impressive...it was....up to a the point where duke beat them...

it's like "wow...that trash-talking 12-yr-old is a good swimmer...who's he up against next? oh...michael phelps"...



now it's being diminished by the whining of jalen and jimmy about the teams that beat them down...

you don't hear butler calling out duke for recruiting "uncle toms"....in fact, you don't hear much whining at all from butler...although, butler never really created a fashion statement...

jalen is just mad and needs to make some money with his re-hype....

[CTDukeFan]

I haven't seen the interviews with Rose and King on various shows promoting the documentary, but I took most of the comments in the documentary to refer to how they felt about Duke at the time, not necessarily how they felt now. In particular I thought that Rose indicated that perception changed. And I think Rose stated that Duke was the better team when they won the 1992 championship (I think it was clear they thought they were better than UNC in the 1993 game).
I thought Rose was honest with his feelings about why he disliked Grant Hill. Which takes some guts to admit, IMHO.
The movie certainly did take their view of the matter, and you have to take that into account, but I think it was well worth watching. I don't think it completely covered over their warts (like admitting they acted spoiled on the trip to Europe).
As others have noted, it's great to see how the Fab Five have progressed from their college days. We do have to remember that as college students, they're just kids. I'm sure we've all done things in college we'd rather be forgotten.

david

[AZLA]

Wait ... so winning five games in the NCAAs is not impressive but winning six is? Y'all gotta be kidding me. Five freshman coming in and leading a team to a final game is INCREDIBLY impressive. If what you are saying is true, then what Butler did last near was not worthy of ever considering again.

Technically speaking -- they didn't win those games. They forfeited them

I don't think any of the Butler players were on the take.

[kgills7]

one reality that these fab 5 guys aren't willing to admit is this....all of them except maybe webber would have ridden the pine alot at duke....even howard would have been behind grant...don't forget, they never won anything and lost a national championship because they paid no attention to their so called coach....the main reason duke would have not recruited them is...1- duke doesn't pay players and duke doesn't do business with bookies...2- they wouldn't have made the grades at duke to stay in school....

Duke won because they were returning champs with several final four experiences playing a bunch of 18 an 19 year olds. Duke was suppose to win. The Fab Five should have not been in the finals. The fact that they did make it says a lot about them.

[kgills7]

I thought the documentary was quite interesting, but extremely self-serving. Here are three highly relevant facts that apply to these so-called student-athletes, which I am sure most DBR participants know:
a) None ever graduated from the University of Michigan
b) From the NCAA's perspective, none ever played in the Final Four (appearances vacated)
c) Several were implicated in serious Federal crimes

Juwan Howard has a degree.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

it's not that it's not impressive...it was....up to a the point where duke beat them...

it's like "wow...that trash-talking 12-yr-old is a good swimmer...who's he up against next? oh...michael phelps"...

You obviously look at things differently than me. I as a Philadelphia Eagles fan think the McNabb era was INCREDIBLY successful and personally would not want the suck for three years to try to win one championship model of franchise management.

And this also means that your view of Duke's run last year in the tournament would be completely different if that lucky heave went in. It obviously changes things some if it had. I look back at the Redick years with absolute fondness even though the NCAA tournament did not work out all that well on the whole.

[Scoring Point]

You obviously look at things differently than me. I as a Philadelphia Eagles fan think the McNabb era was INCREDIBLY successful and personally would not want the suck for three years to try to win one championship model of franchise management.

And this also means that your view of Duke's run last year in the tournament would be completely different if that lucky heave went in. It obviously changes things some if it had. I look back at the Redick years with absolute fondness even though the NCAA tournament did not work out all that well on the whole.

The Fab 5 never finished better than 2nd in the Big Ten, going:

- 11-7 (T3 with Michigan State, behind 15-3 Ohio State and 14-4 Indiana)
- 15-3 (2nd behind 17-1 Indiana)
- 13-5 (without Webber, 2nd behind 14-4 Purdue)
- 11-7 (without Webber, Rose and Howard; T3 with Indiana, behind 15-3 Purdue and 14-4 Michigan State)

Even if you throw out the last year with just King and Jackson, they went just 39-15 in conference play, a 72.2% winning percentage that is impressive but far from dominant. Compare that to Duke's 49-15 in the ACC during JJ's time, with 2 regular season and 3 conference tourney championships.

They did undoubtedly get hot at tourney time. But their Regional NCAA Championships in '92 and '93 were the only titles they ever won. And they were far from a week-in, week-out juggernaut in any of their seasons.

To me, the Fab 5's main claim to fame is personifying a culture of disrespect and defiance that synched up perfectly with the mushrooming popularity of hip-hop at the time. I have not seen the ESPN documentary but assume that theme is prevalent. College hoops and pop culture have never been the same since.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Wait ... so winning five games in the NCAAs is not impressive but winning six is? Y'all gotta be kidding me. Five freshman coming in and leading a team to a final game is INCREDIBLY impressive. If what you are saying is true, then what Butler did last near was not worthy of ever considering again.

I think my earlier post you're referring to says I was not "overly" impressed with anything the Fab 5 accomplished. Yes, I'll give you that getting to the title game is impressive, especially 5 freshmen. But when I say not "overly impressive" I mean it's not something worthy of me watching a documentary about. If they had won the championship (and not violated NCAA rules) that would've been very impressive. 2 championships? Over the moon impressive. But as Duke fans we know there is a fairly big difference in getting to the title game, and winning the National Championship.

[BlueHeaven]

Grant Hill tweeted today that he is working on a response to Jalen Rose and the Fab 5 documentary. I am torn between being anxious to hear his response and not wanting him to dignify their nonsense with any type of comment. I think Jalen Rose is jealous and he has said he was insanely jealous of Grant Hill. Obviously. I'm sure he isn't recognizing that he comes off looking like a complete horse's petute when he makes statements about the Duke program in the present tense. I agree with a previous poster that it's somewhat forgivable if he's describing how he felt as a teenager at Michigan, but from what I've seen, he's maintaining his position now. Grow up.

[cato]

To me, the Fab 5's main claim to fame is personifying a culture of disrespect and defiance that synched up perfectly with the mushrooming popularity of hip-hop at the time. I have not seen the ESPN documentary but assume that theme is prevalent. College hoops and pop culture have never been the same since.

Culture of disrespect. That is amusing, since so much of the underlying context is about a fight for respect.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

I think my earlier post you're referring to says I was not "overly" impressed with anything the Fab 5 accomplished. Yes, I'll give you that getting to the title game is impressive, especially 5 freshmen. But when I say not "overly impressive" I mean it's not something worthy of me watching a documentary about. If they had won the championship (and not violated NCAA rules) that would've been very impressive. 2 championships? Over the moon impressive. But as Duke fans we know there is a fairly big difference in getting to the title game, and winning the National Championship.

And I don't want to come off as an apologist for some very flawed young men. I just think that they were just a great NCAA tournament team for those two years. Dean Smith himself (IIRC) said that after a particularly athletic Webber play with about 7 minutes to go in the '93 final, that he felt that Carolina was going to lose. I think Jalen is right when he says that they were the better team in 1993. But not so much better that a well-coached team could not bring them down -- a team whose players would have had a vision of what to do if they found themselves with the ball that did not include calling a timeout.

I personally am most offended by Jalen Rose equating blackness with growing up hard. It is yet another example of why I think the concept of race is just bankrupt of essential meaning.

Furthermore the post that follows from dukebluesincebirth is exactly why my opinion of Jalen Rose has permanently changed. I really enjoyed listening to him on ESPN. I can't look at him the same way anymore.

[dukebluesincebirth]

"...I agree with a previous poster that it's somewhat forgivable if he's describing how he felt as a teenager at Michigan, but from what I've seen, he's maintaining his position now. Grow up."

I couldn't agree more. I was okay with this until I just saw the First Take interview from this morning. Are you kidding me? Jalen Rose is all but standing by everything he said as a teenager. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt thinking these comments were made out of immaturity, years ago. But they are attacking Duke TODAY, and by doing so is an example of being "socially conscious?" Then he has the nerve to add at the end "and everything I'm saying now, we said it those Duke guys on the court when we played them." I had no idea how jealous this guy was/is of Duke. But I feel like he's crossing a line now and trying to publicly "call out" Duke like they've done something wrong. I don't appreciate it. Have you all watched this morning's interview with Dana Jacobson/Skip Bayless?

[dukebluesincebirth]

And I don't want to come off as an apologist for some very flawed young men. I just think that they were just a great NCAA tournament team for those two years. Dean Smith himself (IIRC) said that after a particularly athletic Webber play with about 7 minutes to go in the '93 final, that he felt that Carolina was going to lose. I think Jalen is right when he says that they were the better team in 1993. But not so much better that a well-coached team could not bring them down -- a team whose players would have had a vision of what to do if they found themselves with the ball that did not include calling a timeout.

I personally am most offended by Jalen Rose equating blackness with growing up hard. It is yet another example of why I think the concept of race is just bankrupt of essential meaning.

They had a good team and great talent, but right now I'm mostly concerned with all of Jalen Rose's comments against Duke. I'm also offended by the comment you mentioned above and I also think there are a few other flaws in Jalen's statements. Like someone above said about G. Hill's pending response, I don't know whether it's better to respond or just ignore it as unworthy of time and energy.

[AZLA]

Grant Hill tweeted today that he is working on a response to Jalen Rose and the Fab 5 documentary. I am torn between being anxious to hear his response and not wanting him to dignify their nonsense with any type of comment. I think Jalen Rose is jealous and he has said he was insanely jealous of Grant Hill. Obviously. I'm sure he isn't recognizing that he comes off looking like a complete horse's petute when he makes statements about the Duke program in the present tense. I agree with a previous poster that it's somewhat forgivable if he's describing how he felt as a teenager at Michigan, but from what I've seen, he's maintaining his position now. Grow up.

Yah, I understand your concern. But, in this day and age, silence does not fly like it used to, especially considering the emergence of social media. Also, I guarantee you that Grant's response will not be defensive or reactionary -- but will be positioned to move the larger social discussion forward.

I think also, with Grant's foray into film -- he's a producer himself -- he should really consider doing his own Duke documentary regarding the hype that surrounded Duke leading up to and during the back-to-back championships.

Remember, Fab 5 was big -- but the Duke phenomenon was and is bigger.

It's practically tee'd up!

[Scoring Point]

Culture of disrespect. That is amusing, since so much of the underlying context is about a fight for respect.

Disrespect toward the established order (i.e. Duke in the case of college hoops at the time). I suppose that was their means of fighting for respect. I find the logic flawed but hey, at least they got famous and rich, and are still talking about it with ESPN today.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Uhmmm. Does anyone else have a problem with Jalen Rose standing by his comments that Duke's black players are for the most part "Uncle Tom" type people which he defines as "black people who are subservient to whites?" Or the comment, "I've never seen Coach K in Detroit?" I feel like he's trying to hurt our recruiting while also making inappropriate comments.