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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    New Jersey

    The Fab 5 Documentary

    I know there was a previous thread about Jalen Rose's comments, but I thought I'd start a new one since the documentary aired last night. As an '88 Duke grad, I was not a fan of the Fab 5, their trash-talking, unwarranted swagger, and dress, but I found the documentary last night to be excellent and well-done. I believe the credits showed that three of the five produced the documentary, so you have to expect it to represent them in a more positive light and is perhaps a bit one-sided, but I thought Jalen Rose came across as a really honest guy with an interesting story to tell. He did not mince words and I think, as a whole, the documentary captured the emotional mindset of the players and coach Fisher. I thought the "timeout" issue was addressed well and showed how much of an effect it had on Chris Webber's emotional psyche.

    I also thought the end of the documentary was pretty poignant. Like them or not, you can't argue with the effect they had on the college basketball landscape including the dress, the trash talking, and the early departures to the NBA, all of which became the norm. As Rose noted in the final clip, college basketball fans remember the names of the Fab 5, but don't remember the names of the Carolina starting five that beat them in 1993.

    Did anyobody else watch it? I'm interested in your thoughts.
    Rich
    Cameron Crazies Do Not Storm The Court

  2. #2
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    Feb 2008
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    Lewisville, NC
    I saw it; was prepared to dislike the players and the story, but I thought it was an interesting, well prepared piece.

    Chris Webber is the guy that comes off the worst, immature and to this day not willing to admit his mistakes. It is unclear just how much money he took from Ed Martin (and others?); Jalen Rose says the extent of money was for "pocket money" or expenditures on clothes, shoes, restaurant meals, and small ($100) monetary gifts. But Webber is reported to have accepted over $200,000; columnist Mitch Albom, who covered the Fab 5 closely, says Webber certainly didn't live like a kid who had received that much money; the speculation is that Martin made large payments to Webber essentially after Webber's college playing time, but before he was actually a pro.

    I've greatly enjoyed the whole 30 for 30 series; some very interesting stories, and generally well done.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    I've gotten through half of it and so far it is terrific. Jalen's commentary is by far the centerpiece. Love him or hate him, he and the rest of the Fab 5 were a representation of the evolution of college basketball and really brought a lot of social context to the college basketball world. They were pretty much picking up where the '91 UNLV team left off. I actually liked the Fab 5 back in those early 90's. Contrary to the popular notion I thought they played a terrific team game. Few teams during that period shared the ball as well as they did and had such deep chemistry.

    And don't forget, Duke had a really good shot at landing Webber during his recruitment.
    "Just be you. You is Enough."

  4. #4
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    Nov 2007
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    Philly
    I didn't think that Jalen's commentary on Duke was nearly as inflammatory as the promo's made it out to be (besides the stuff that needed to be bleeped out). Really, the worst of it was all that was advertised (should I have expected different?), and I was somewhat surprised to see how much credit he gave Duke for the title game. Normally, someone who is bitter will say that they had a bad night, but were the better team, or that they could have beaten Duke if they didn't happen to be really hot at the end. Rose, though, pretty much said that Duke was definitely a better team than they were and didn't give any qualifiers to whether or not they could have won. They weren't as conciliatory towards UNC as they all said that they fully expected to beat UNC and thought they were better (in case anybody thought that they were just being humble for the camera).
    Pratt '09
    GO DUKE!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Like them or not, you can't argue with the effect they had on the college basketball landscape including the dress, the trash talking, and the early departures to the NBA, all of which became the norm.
    We need, in my opinion, clearly to distinguish between beneficial and detrimental consequences and results. Certainly, the Fab Five were instrumental in all the areas you cited -- and more -- but I believe these were adverse modifications to traditional college basketball, making today's too frequent on- and off-court hoggishness, criminality, ludicrous academics, one-and-dones, and so forth "acceptable." Lots of individuals and groups leave legacies; the germane question, however, is whether their bequests are positive or negative.
    Last edited by 4decadedukie; 03-14-2011 at 10:38 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I know there was a previous thread about Jalen Rose's comments, but I thought I'd start a new one since the documentary aired last night. As an '88 Duke grad, I was not a fan of the Fab 5, their trash-talking, unwarranted swagger, and dress, but I found the documentary last night to be excellent and well-done. I believe the credits showed that three of the five produced the documentary, so you have to expect it to represent them in a more positive light and is perhaps a bit one-sided, but I thought Jalen Rose came across as a really honest guy with an interesting story to tell. He did not mince words and I think, as a whole, the documentary captured the emotional mindset of the players and coach Fisher. I thought the "timeout" issue was addressed well and showed how much of an effect it had on Chris Webber's emotional psyche.

    I also thought the end of the documentary was pretty poignant. Like them or not, you can't argue with the effect they had on the college basketball landscape including the dress, the trash talking, and the early departures to the NBA, all of which became the norm. As Rose noted in the final clip, college basketball fans remember the names of the Fab 5, but don't remember the names of the Carolina starting five that beat them in 1993.

    Did anyobody else watch it? I'm interested in your thoughts.
    I too watched the documentary last night and I have to admit that, like you, I thought it was well done and had an interesting story to tell about a player's perspective of college basketball. I was prepared NOT to like Jalen Rose and some of the other members of the Fab Five, based on the recent stories in the press about their "hating Duke." But once I watched the documentary in its entirety, I almost felt sorry for Jalen and some of the Fab Five members, who, undoubtedly, had a visceral hatred of Duke at the time that was really born (as Jalen admitted in the documentary) of jealousy and envy of the more privileged life that Grant Hil, Christian Laettner, and some of the other Duke players had led, compared to their hardscrabble upbringing in the inner city. I have no doubt that many of the Fab Five, with the exception of Chris Webber who apparently was heavily recruited by Duke (and thank God he did not come to Duke), sincerely felt that Duke was snubbing them in recruiting (and other players like them) because they did not fit into the "Duke mold" (which may be true, frankly) and they were mature enough and perceptive enough at the time to take this snub personally. It sort of reminds me that we might have to alter that old saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" to "Hell has no fury like a star high school basketball player scorned." Although I'm not sure the players interviewed still have the same level of hatred of Duke (maybe just a strong dislike?), I thought it was interesting that all of them had to admit a grudging respect for the success that Duke has had over the years on the basketball floor. I also thought it was interesting how when they played Duke for the first time, they all thought Christian Laettner and Grant Hill and some of the other Duke players were "soft" and overrrated (because they were not inner city players) and how surprised they actually were when the game started and they suddenly realized that Christian and Grant and the other Duke players COULD play basketball and were as tough as any of them (and subsequently kicked their butts during the game).
    I was also struck by how they seemed somewhat bitter to this day that during their time as Michigan players, they were very aware that Michigan was making huge money off of the "Fab Five phenomenon" while they were financially starving the entire time and that they did not seem to have serious second thoughts about taking money from Ed Davis for their day to day spending needs. It was sort of like the "anything to survive" attitude that is hard to argue with unless you are in their shoes.
    Finally, I thought Steve Fisher came off as a nice guy but somewhat clueless about what was really going on with the Fab Five and almost in over his head at the time in coaching the team. I actually felt sorry for him. I loved his interview at the time where a media person asked him if he knew any of the music that the Fab Five was listening to and he smiled and said "No, I listen to Peter, Paul, and Mary". LOL

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    Wasn't perfect, but I enjoyed it.

    I'm a '93 alumnus, so they were part of my formative basketball-following years. From a Duke standpoint the story starts during the '91 season, when Webber attended a game in Cameron and we made several cheers acknowledging his presence. Looking back, I don't think were ever seriously in the running for him.

    The most lasting impression I took was the team's process of growing up, from doing 18-year-old kid things to becoming increasingly cognizant of the people around them making money at their expense. Still, they stayed together as a team and very badly wanted to win a national championship. That Webber didn't participate says a lot about how important it was two decades later.

    Nobody really addressed the main gameplay-related complaint about the Fab Five, which was that they played to the level of their opponents. Most of the participants were the players themselves or people sympahetic to them, so you're not reminded of this.

    Immediately after Webber called timeout, he says something angrily either to the Michigan bench or a teammate. I'd still like to know what he said; may have been something like "somebody told me to call timeout". I still blame him for doing it, but without Webber participating that part of the story is incomplete.

    I don't blame anyone for taking money, and have no reason not to believe what Mitch Albom says. My views on this kind of thing are probably more liberal than those of most others here. And they're right: nobody's going to forget the Fab Five, whereas I can't think of a reason to remember Heinrik Rodl.
    As suburban children we floated at night in swimming pools the temperature of blood. -- Douglas Coupland

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by duke79 View Post
    It sort of reminds me that we might have to alter that old saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" to "Hell has no fury like a star high school basketball player scorned."
    Very good post, with lots of good points.
    However, I'm willing to bet that hell's fury is worse than going a cumulative 0-5 against the scorner.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Jalen Rose says the extent of money was for "pocket money" or expenditures on clothes, shoes, restaurant meals, and small ($100) monetary gifts.
    This is a classic case of admitting as little as you possibly can, and only after getting caught. A friend and former colleague of mine went to law school at Michigan and was friends with several players on that team, particularly Juwan Howard. They got free apartments, free groceries, new SUVs every year (which eventually started their downfall when one was in an accident during a recruit's visit). A booster helped Webber quietly get by a youthful indiscretion. The players also had no respect for Fisher. It was a dirty, dirty program.

    Much of this had to be apparrent if one were looking. But, then again, local media doesn't want to bring down the big state school program.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In your attic
    Quote Originally Posted by 4decadedukie View Post
    We need, in my opinion, clearly to distinguish between beneficial and detrimental consequences and results. Certainly, the Fab Five were instrumental in all the areas you cited -- and more -- but I believe these were adverse modifications to traditional college basketball, making today's too frequent on- and off-court hoggishness, criminality, ludicrous academics, one-and-dones, and so forth "acceptable." Lots of individuals and groups leave legacies; the germane question, however, is whether their bequests are positive or negative.
    Very good point, but I tend to disagree with the assesment that the Fab Five's actions were entirely detrimental to traditional college basketball. Don't get me wrong, some of it was. But I think the nation as a whole was breaking from 'tradition' at the time and it just happened to be personified by a basketball team.

    All of the Fab Five, aside from Webber IMO, have gone on to excel in professional and philanthropic endeavors after basketball. I think the way people perceive them has always been clouded by misinformation - I have certainly been guilty of doing so.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    In your attic
    Also, ESPN First Take has Jimmy King on their "First Down" segment. Fairly interesting commentary touching on the documentary, NPOY (he picks Nolan), and the Uncle Tom comment...

    It should air repetitively through late afternoon.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Fort Myer, VA
    I dont post here much, but I thought I would weigh in on this documentary.

    I thought it was very well done. I was too young to be aware of the Fab 5 being born in 1985, but I have always been aware of "The Timeout." To see this documentary filled in alot of holes for me, and made me appreciate Duke's repeat in 1992 so much more.

    The 2 hour show itself went a long way to convince me that college players should be compensated more than for an education. Don't get me wrong, I still have a problem with paying college athletes because it would never be fair, seeing that stat of Michigan revenue going from 1mil to 10mil in one year floored me. I came away feeling like these 5 TEENAGERS were exploited. Now I dont know how much money any of them received, or of their activities away from the court, but after watching this(and only this i might add), I realized how much more than a game College Basketball really is. Money is behind everything and I wonder how much of a role it plays today and how prevalent it is at Duke(I hope not at all).

    I thought the 4 players came away as pretty honest on this show, but I realized they had hands in making it. I am sure Chris Webber watched it and wonder what his reaction was. Should he apologize? I dont know.

    Anyway, I also appreciated reading everyone else's responses. Thanks!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rougemont Nebulae
    Quote Originally Posted by 4decadedukie View Post
    We need, in my opinion, clearly to distinguish between beneficial and detrimental consequences and results. Certainly, the Fab Five were instrumental in all the areas you cited -- and more -- but I believe these were adverse modifications to traditional college basketball, making today's too frequent on- and off-court hoggishness, criminality, ludicrous academics, one-and-dones, and so forth "acceptable." Lots of individuals and groups leave legacies; the germane question, however, is whether their bequests are positive or negative.
    Whoa. That's a lot to lay at the feet of the Fab 5. College basketball is responsible for its own ills. Over-zealous AAU coaches, unscrupulous agents, shoe and apparel manufacturers like Nike, the NBA, athletic departments that function as automonous business enterprises, booster clubs that build domed stadiums and offer coaches supplemental income have given birth to College Basketball, Inc. They're responsible for the permissive nature of college athletics far more than the Fab 5.

  14. #14
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    Dec 2010
    Location
    Carolina Beach

    Knight

    I caught part of a game this weekend that Brent and Bobby Knight were doing and the promo came up for the Fab 5 special and Brent mentioned it with a slight chuckle and Knight said something to the effect of, don't get me started on that bunch. It was tone more than what he said that let you know what he thought of them.

    I can't help but feel sorry for Weber everytime I see that play. Ironic that El Deano won both of his national championships in part by the two biggest gaffes I can recall in national championships.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Rougemont Nebulae
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    I caught part of a game this weekend that Brent and Bobby Knight were doing and the promo came up for the Fab 5 special and Brent mentioned it with a slight chuckle and Knight said something to the effect of, don't get me started on that bunch. It was tone more than what he said that let you know what he thought of them.

    I can't help but feel sorry for Weber everytime I see that play. Ironic that El Deano won both of his national championships in part by the two biggest gaffes I can recall in national championships.
    An interesting point brought out by the documentary I hadn't known was that several players on the bench yelled to Webber to call time out and tape was shown with one player, hands over head, giving the T signal. Still doesn't excuse Webber's mistake but Fisher should've done a better job controlling his bench.

  16. #16
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    Mar 2007
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    wilmington, nc
    Bobby Hurley was just on The Dan Patrick show and was asked about the Fab 5 documentary and what he thought of some of the comments from the Michigan players about Duke. He gave some good little subtle return trash talk to the Michigan guys. It was pretty awesome. The best was when Dan asked who talked a lot of trash to him from Michigan and Hurley said something to the effect of "Jimmy King didn't think I had any game but you would think he learned better after I dropped 26 on them the first time we played."

  17. #17
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    Feb 2007
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    Dillon, Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by dukeblue1206 View Post
    "Jimmy King didn't think I had any game but you would think he learned better after I dropped 26 on them the first time we played."
    3 and 0.
    As suburban children we floated at night in swimming pools the temperature of blood. -- Douglas Coupland

  18. #18
    Hurley was on the Dan Patrick Show talking about the documentary:

    http://www.danpatrick.com/2011/03/14...in-tournament/

    A couple of gems:

    - Hurley talked about how Duke recruited Webber but not Rose. "He would've had a hard time hitting the floor. He wouldn't have gotten my spot, and Thomas Hill would've had something to say about his."

    - When asked about trash talk, Hurley said he was irritated about Jimmy King's comments that he (Hurley) had no game. "You'd think after I put up 26 on them in the first game that they'd have figured out I knew how to play."

  19. #19
    Do you guys think this documentary can have a negative impact on recruiting? Because I wouldn't be surprised if these upcoming kids start following their tactics shown in the video. As a result, they'll also dislike Duke and don't want to be associated with (or to be known as) 'uncle toms'.

  20. #20
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    Mar 2009
    Location
    Memphis, TN

    Fab Five's justification of hating Duke on First Take

    This morning on ESPN first take, Jimmy King was on to justify the Fab Five's hatred of Duke. Basically they said that they hate Duke because they don't recruit what he called "brothas." Seconds later the host of the show started running off black players and King was stunned looking for words.

    So what I took out of it was the five guys based their hatred on what they thought were facts.

    He went on trying to justify his beliefs by saying that he was trying to say that black players who went to Duke were "sell outs." Giving up on their herritage. In which Skip Bayless responded asking how can you criticize guys like Grant Hill or Elton Brand for going to a school that also provides a good education.

    Throughout the segment King was stumbling over his words.

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