Kyle Singler's Challenge

[lotusland]

We need Kyle to get his mojo back on offense for Duke to go deep in the tournament so I really hope he can get it going again. Anyone who thinks Kyle isn't a player hasn't been paying attention for the past 4-years though. I hope he finds success at the next level but it doesn't change what he's accomplished at Duke. He was MVP of the final 4 so I think he pulled his weight in the tournament last year. Why do I feel as if I'm trying to prove that the world isn't flat?

[marinbobbyduhon]

We need Kyle to get his mojo back on offense for Duke to go deep in the tournament so I really hope he can get it going again. Anyone who thinks Kyle isn't a player hasn't been paying attention for the past 4-years though. I hope he finds success at the next level but it doesn't change what he's accomplished at Duke. He was MVP of the final 4 so I think he pulled his weight in the tournament last year. Why do I feel as if I'm trying to prove that the world isn't flat?

Because fans lose all perspective when we lose to our arch rival. I almost didn't come on here tonight after we lost. I just couldn't help myself, though; and I wonder why. I sure hope that no one from the coaching staff ever reads what we write after the games, especially losses. I am embarrassed by some of the things we say about our players and our coaching staff.

[Saratoga2]

As recently as the Clemson game, Kyle had to sit for a while due to foul problems. We were up by 11. In a few minutes we were down by 1. He can back in and we turned it around. Kyle has great value on defense, rebounding and scoring close to the basket. When we play a team with athletic bigs, the inside scoring opportunities are more limited. Kyle shot well from outside in the Oregon game, but it is hard to remember him doing that in other games this year. His outside shot has been off most of the year, so I don't think it is his being hurt or tired as much as his shot mechanics are somehow different and he tends to leave shots short. Clearly a tired player will tend to miss 3 point shots more often and even Nolan tends to fade late in games, but has the slashing drives and mid range game.

Kyle remains a very important part of the defense and offense for this team but perhaps has to reconsider his 3 point shooting role. He has done that during some of the recent games with good results.

[MChambers]

Come on. Singler has not shot well all year. At what point do we all admit he isn't the player we thought he was? I've been an observor since 1975 and he isn't going to the next level. Period.

What's an "observor"?

[MChambers]

Respectfully disagree. He simply does not have a high basketball IQ. He does not understand that the strength of his offensive game is not standing outside the arc and jacking up shots. His game at the college level can and will excel from 15 feet in....where he can get fouled and live at the foul line while fouling out the opposition. In four years, he has not figured that out. Admittedly, I have never been a Singler fan (people who know me, know that I have admittedly strong feelings about his play)...primarily because for all of his natural ability, he has no idea how to maximize his basketball efficiency on the offensive end.

As for the person above stating that Singler was the reason why Duke won the NC last year...all I can say is that while he played well against WVU and Butler....he was putrid against Baylor...0-10 from the field IIRC. For my money, we won because Scheyer and Smith rose to the occasion more than Singler

Funny, because Coach K seems to disagree with you. But I guess you know more.

[RoyalBlue08]

I hope this thread represents the lunatic fringe of the fan base and not some widespread opinion. I hate losing to UNC as much as anyone, but if we lose the last thing I am going to do is start criticizing the kids. And if anyone is above criticism, it's got to be Kyle. The kid has been a warrior for us for 4 years. He leaves everything on the court every time he goes out there. And after winning a championship and MOP of the Final Four last year he surprises everyone by passing on the NBA (at a point at which it was going to be hard for his draft stock to be any higher) to come back and finish his four years at Duke because he loved the school and playing for the Blue Devils. I hope Kyle has a great finish to his career at Duke, but if he doesn't hit another shot in his career, for me he goes down as one of the all time great players at Duke. Go Duke!

[wiscodevil]

Because fans lose all perspective when we lose to our arch rival. I almost didn't come on here tonight after we lost. I just couldn't help myself, though; and I wonder why. I sure hope that no one from the coaching staff ever reads what we write after the games, especially losses. I am embarrassed by some of the things we say about our players and our coaching staff.

ditto.

singler has been a phenomenal college player by any measure you wish to choose. coach k is the best coach in the game.

now, that doesn't mean they're perfect. they'll have bad games. they'll lose games. but when you read what some "fans" write after a tough outing, it really is embarrassing.

[grossbus]

it would make me happy if he could get a call once in a while. he gets beat up as much as JJ used to.

[elvis14]

Last year Mason chucked up a few threes and everyone around here was going on and on about how he needs to stop. He did. Mason isn't looking to chuck up threes anymore at all. Kyle can't hit a shot longer than 10' in a game with any consistency. He was 0 for 5 last night from 3 point land. Heck, I think Mason could do better shooting the 3. Kyle needs to take the same number of 3's in a game that Mason is taking, 0. I'm not just hitting the panic button after last night's loss. I've seen this for a long time. Here's a look back at Kyle's three point shooting of late:

0-5 UNC@CH
1-3 Clemson
1-7 VT
0-1 Temple
0-1 GT
0-2 UVa
2-6 Mia
1-6 UNC@CH

Since the first UNC@CH game inclusive, Kyle's 5 for 31 (16%). He's a great player and we need him on the floor as much as possible. He plays great defense, rebounds well and is without a doubt invaluable to the team (plus/minus numbers show this). But his jump shot just isn't good right now. I don't want to speculate about possible injuries, say he's defense is hampering is offense or other reasons to explain why. I just want Kyle to stop shooting shots he can't hit consistently. I really hate posting this. As a Duke fan, it's almost impossible not to love Kyle Singler but the stats don't lie and they basically back up my own observations. Does being a 16% 3-point shooter make Kyle less effective on the offensive end? Sadly, yes it does. I've always thought one of Kyle's greatest assets was his flexibility. Faced with a smaller player he can operate well down low (see the 28 he dropped on Temple) and faced with a bigger player he could use a combination of his outside shot and drives to the hoop to be effective. But without the outside shot his offense suffers, particularly against bigger teams and zone defenses. I kept waiting for his outside shot to return. At this point, with the regular season over and the tournaments starting, I think I'd rather see Kyle have better shot selection and leave the outside shooting to Nolan, Curry and Andre.

[dukelifer]

Respectfully disagree. He simply does not have a high basketball IQ. He does not understand that the strength of his offensive game is not standing outside the arc and jacking up shots. His game at the college level can and will excel from 15 feet in....where he can get fouled and live at the foul line while fouling out the opposition. In four years, he has not figured that out. Admittedly, I have never been a Singler fan (people who know me, know that I have admittedly strong feelings about his play)...primarily because for all of his natural ability, he has no idea how to maximize his basketball efficiency on the offensive end.

As for the person above stating that Singler was the reason why Duke won the NC last year...all I can say is that while he played well against WVU and Butler....he was putrid against Baylor...0-10 from the field IIRC. For my money, we won because Scheyer and Smith rose to the occasion more than Singler

You do remember that Kyle played the Baylor game with a very bad wrist. Also you win the NC championship because how you play in the FF. Duke has been to a bunch and only won 4.

[uh_no]

Last year Mason chucked up a few threes and everyone around here was going on and on about how he needs to stop. He did. Mason isn't looking to chuck up threes anymore at all. Kyle can't hit a shot longer than 10' in a game with any consistency. He was 0 for 5 last night from 3 point land. Heck, I think Mason could do better shooting the 3. Kyle needs to take the same number of 3's in a game that Mason is taking, 0. I'm not just hitting the panic button after last night's loss. I've seen this for a long time. Here's a look back at Kyle's three point shooting of late:

0-5 UNC@CH
1-3 Clemson
1-7 VT
0-1 Temple
0-1 GT
0-2 UVa
2-6 Mia
1-6 UNC@CH

Since the first UNC@CH game inclusive, Kyle's 5 for 31 (16%). He's a great player and we need him on the floor as much as possible. He plays great defense, rebounds well and is without a doubt invaluable to the team (plus/minus numbers show this). But his jump shot just isn't good right now. I don't want to speculate about possible injuries, say he's defense is hampering is offense or other reasons to explain why. I just want Kyle to stop shooting shots he can't hit consistently. I really hate posting this. As a Duke fan, it's almost impossible not to love Kyle Singler but the stats don't lie and they basically back up my own observations. Does being a 16% 3-point shooter make Kyle less effective on the offensive end? Sadly, yes it does. I've always thought one of Kyle's greatest assets was his flexibility. Faced with a smaller player he can operate well down low (see the 28 he dropped on Temple) and faced with a bigger player he could use a combination of his outside shot and drives to the hoop to be effective. But without the outside shot his offense suffers, particularly against bigger teams and zone defenses. I kept waiting for his outside shot to return. At this point, with the regular season over and the tournaments starting, I think I'd rather see Kyle have better shot selection and leave the outside shooting to Nolan, Curry and Andre.

Absolutely spot on. I'm not sitting here questioning his effort, but he's simply not making the shot (3) and this has been a problem for months now. Part of it is his shot selection on 3. Last year when he took threes they were often open and he was set...the shot came off a pass. Half his threes this year are with him running around the perimeter, then turning in the air and shooting (or fading away). He never ever makes those. I can't remember a single 'runner' on the 3 point line which he has made.

[captmojo]

I've read "He's not squared up for his shots" and "He is squared". Relax a bit. That should be his solution. I'm not saying he should stand still and watch, like a team that used to stand around and watch what JJ Redick would do. He needs to just slightly economize his motion on offense. Right now, he's looking like a mirror image of JJ, running around screens in a circle of the half court. When he finally gets his hands on the ball for an open shot, there isn't enough gas in the tank and the compass is so spun around it hasn't settled itself to an agreement of which way is north and which is east.

A little less desperational effort to get open might be worth a try. Use that energy on the other end of the floor...defensively. Work your hardest without the ball. Relax and catch your breath back on offense. When the best shooters are at their best is when they have just a bit more time to vision the target and mentally vision the shot. They are ready before they catch the pass.


He just needs an extra moment right now, for that outside shot. Coach K is a genius, and with all due respect, I tend to disagree with his attitude that these kids don't get tired. I think it's showing in Singler's continuous 40 minutes of logging, game after game.

[CDu]

In the 8 games following the NCSU win (beginning with the home win vs UNC), Singler and Kelly are a combined 8-54 on 3pt shots. That's just awful. That's a month with two of our four primary outside shooters shooting under 15% from 3pt range. Dawkins has gone 6-18, so he's been average/below average. Basically, it's been Smith and Curry from 3 and nobody else. For a team that doesn't have many guys who can create off the dribble and has virtually no post offense, that can be a problem.

We NEED Singler to bounce back and show the skills he showed last year. We need Kelly to hit a reasonable percentage. Otherwise, it puts a ton of pressure on Smith (who has proven to be amazing this year), Curry (who has been up-and-down as a shooter), and the defense (which has looked slow against St. John's and UNC but otherwise has done fairly well against a pretty mediocre ACC).

Somebody said that Singler was a limited offensive player. I don't think that's accurate. He can score in a variety of ways. He can score in the post, he can get putbacks, he can hit jumpshots off the curl, he can score off the dribble, he can hit the mid-range shot, he can hit the step-back jumper, and he can sometimes hit the 3. Basically, the only things he can't do are blow people away with quickness/explosiveness or jump over people. Given that he's not a freak athlete, he has about as diverse and mature an offensive skillset as you can have. He's just not hitting his outside shot (and hasn't for the last month), and that makes him look more limited.

[jdk]

Come on. Singler has not shot well all year. At what point do we all admit he isn't the player we thought he was? I've been an observor since 1975 and he isn't going to the next level. Period.

At this point, I begin to wonder how much his draft stock has suffered. He was only a mid first-rounder after his final four run last season. Does he drop to the second round this season? I really hope not. Otherwise, he becomes the poster child for leaving early.

I'm going with the injured thing as an explanation for his poor offensive play. He wore a knee brace the first UNC game, which is about when he started his drought. The guy has made a living being one of the toughest players I've seen at Duke, so maybe he has been playing through an injury for a few weeks. In which case I ask, would it have been better for him (and the team) to sit out a few games and heal?

[captmojo]

Basically, the only things he can't do are blow people away with quickness/explosiveness or jump over people.

Everything you wrote is accurate but I backspaced all but this, because this is the essence of the problem. Curry or Kelly should be coming off the bench and Thornton should take over as the starting point. This quickness will relieve pressure on the rest of the team to be more effective on offense.
Go back in time to the Oregon game. With Irving running the show, it frees up all the others to play the roles best. How well did Kyle produce against the Ducks? So Irving isn't available, his next natural replacement is Tyler. This causes the least disruption to the rest of the team in maintaining the role responsibilities that they had prior to his injury.

[gw67]

I rarely think that Clark Kellog is worthy of a kudo but yesterday he pointed out that Singler has had several poor shooting games this season and he didn't think that poor shot selection was the cause. This matches my observations and the stats. In 16 ACC games, he has shot less than 40% from the field and 30% from the 3-pt line and in nine of those games he has shot even worse (his two awesome games [20-34] against Maryland skew the data). I liked Singler playing in the frontcourt but the transition to wing appeared to work last year. He was a matchup nightmare for most wings and he had a terrific junior year. As sometimes happens, a player does not shoot as well his senior year. Hopefully, he has a few more Oregon, Temple and Maryland - like games in him during the next four weeks. The Devils need him to play well.

gw67

[roywhite]

I rarely think that Clark Kellog is worthy of a kudo but yesterday he pointed out that Singler has had several poor shooting games this season and he didn't think that poor shot selection was the cause. This matches my observations and the stats. In 16 ACC games, he has shot less than 40% from the field and 30% from the 3-pt line and in nine of those games he has shot even worse (his two awesome games [20-34] against Maryland skew the data). I liked Singler playing in the frontcourt but the transition to wing appeared to work last year. He was a matchup nightmare for most wings and he had a terrific junior year. As sometimes happens, a player does not shoot as well his senior year. Hopefully, he has a few more Oregon, Temple and Maryland - like games in him during the next four weeks. The Devils need him to play well.

gw67

Yeah, I heard that too, gw.

Kellogg's theory was that Kyle is lacking somewhat on his footwork and shot preparation, not getting his balance and positioning quite right before shooting. That, and a bit of late season fatigue in the legs, seems reasonable to me.

Kyle is a helluva competitor who can re-group and have a great postseason; it's certainly important to Duke's success.

[TheTrain]

He is 17-71 from 3-point range since January 15 (24%)

At some point there has to be acceptance of the fact that 3-point shooting is not his strength and he needs to adjust to increase his offensive efficiency. To not recognize this, is to ignore reality

[Atlanta Duke]

At this point, I begin to wonder how much his draft stock has suffered. He was only a mid first-rounder after his final four run last season. Does he drop to the second round this season? I really hope not. Otherwise, he becomes the poster child for leaving early.

Agreed - Kyle Singler did the right thing for the Duke program and Duke fans by coming back but the question is whether it was the right thing for him. Basketball is a business as well as a game.

As is discussed in the "should Kyrie Irving turn pro" thread, I have no idea what is most important to these young men and what part of Duke away from basketball they particularly treasure.

But from a straight $$ standpoint coming back for his senior year may cost Kyle Singler a lot of $$ - hopefully something turns around in the next month to change that possibility

[coldriver10]

I would support mixing up the lineup for the ACCT, with the starters being:

Smith
Curry
Dawkins
Singler
Mason

This has much less to do with Kelly having a (very) bad game last night and more to do with the fact that it would force Singler to play more of the "4", which would encourage him to play inside the arc rather than taking on the JJ Redick role he seems to be doing lately.

Thoughts?