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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    Congrats to Nolan for winning these NPOY awards! IMHO, this pretty much seals the deal on his having his jersey retired, doesn't it! Now, on to the much more important business of winning the ACC Tournament title and NCAA Tournament title!
    I don't think it "seals" anything regarding to jersey retirement as these website awards aren't really acknowledged as major awards. It's an honor though, and perhaps it portends some major national award (or more) to come for him.

    But still, it's nice to see Smith getting recognition for his amazing season.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think he meant more nationally recognized honors. I'm not sure that website honors like Foxsports and Yahoo are recognized. I'm not sure what the list of "recognized" honors is, but those seem pretty low on the totem pole to me.

    Regardless, it's definitely nice that he's getting some national honors. The kid has been amazing.
    I second that. I was thinking about this earlier, has there ever been a Duke kid that improved as much as Nolan has over the course of their career? Ever? What about a non-Duke player? I cannot think of a Duke player off the top of my head, even though stats wise, Battier and Nolan are similar. But Shane came in as a top 3 recruit on a loaded team and was asked to play a role his first two years. We all knew he would be a star. We had no idea where Nolan was headed. As for other teams, Lorenzo Charles made a big jump, though not as big as Nolan.

    K made a comment last spring that I admit not fulling believing. He said that Nolan obviously made a huge improvement in his game from his sophomore to junior year, but he would make an even bigger jump his senior year. I was skeptical to say the least. However, I went over to Central in August to watch the summer league, and at that point I believed K. Nolan had made tremendous strides from the National Championship game in April to that hot August evening. Watching him play was captivating. His confidence, ball handling, mid-range jumper, etc were just amazing to watch.

    He has come a long way since that dreadful night at Clemson in 2008. I for one think we are witnessing the greatest level of improvement in a Duke player there has even been. I hope he brings home several of the recognized NPOY awards as he darn sure deserves them. No offense to Jimmer, who is a great player, but for me, Nolan's defense and total game gives him the nod over Jimmer and the others in my book.

    The level of improvement is just insane..
    “I strongly feel that that’s not a basketball issue. I’m in charge of the basketball program as much the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be. And it’s not a basketball issue.”
    Williams said, he is aware of the classes that his players take. “I think it varies on a coach,” he said. “I mean, I’m pretty aware of what our guys are doing. And it’s not a basketball issue, guys. It is not a basketball issue. It’s a university issue.
    Roy Williams 2012

  3. #83
    You could make a case for Danny Ferry improving almost as much, although I think he came in a little better.

    Ferry's ppg went 6/14/19/23. Rebounds and Assists in soph, jun, senior pretty consistent after big soph improvement.

    The thing for Nolan is that he has improved every level of his game. And as the yahoosports NPOY article mentioned is contributing a ton off the court too. I think K will be looking for an excuse to retire this guy's jersey and even if this award isn't officially recognized, it's darn close, so he can maintain his standards and still retire Nolan.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK Dukie View Post
    You could make a case for Danny Ferry improving almost as much, although I think he came in a little better.

    Ferry's ppg went 6/14/19/23. Rebounds and Assists in soph, jun, senior pretty consistent after big soph improvement.

    The thing for Nolan is that he has improved every level of his game. And as the yahoosports NPOY article mentioned is contributing a ton off the court too. I think K will be looking for an excuse to retire this guy's jersey and even if this award isn't officially recognized, it's darn close, so he can maintain his standards and still retire Nolan.
    IIRC, Ferry was the #1 or #2 Hs player in the country depending on who you asked (the kid who got hurt out of ND was the other guy --David Rivers? -- I remember J Dawkins reverse dunking on him in Cameron). Also, IIRC, Danny started a good number of games as a Frosh. I don't know where Nolan was ranked, but it is hard to think of someone who grew more at Duke. Shane Battier, maybe, although again I think Shane had a higher profile coming in.

  5. #85
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    Shane won at least one high school npoy award, and while he did improve every year offensively, he was already defensive npoy by his sophomore year. So Nolan probably wins "most improved"pretty easily (at least over shane.)

  6. #86

    Tom Gugliotta

    Smith is certainly a player whose performance has improved significantly over the four years he has been enrolled. Ferry started slowly and improved as he became an upperclassman as did Juan Dixon. Off the top of my head, the most improved ACC player over his career was Tom Gugliotta. To say that Gugliotta was lightly regarded as a high school player is an understatement. It is my understanding that Valvano only offered Tom a scholarship because he was good friends with Tom's dad who was his high school coach. As a freshman, he primarily sat on the bench and he averaged 2.0 ppg. He put on a little weight and averaged 11 ppg as a soph and followed that with 15.2 and 22.5 ppg in his junior and senior years. He improved his rebounding and assists every year and played in an era when ACC was the best conference in the country. He played with or against some of the best players in ACC history - Laettner, Hurley, G. Hill, Monroe, Corchiani, K. Anderson, Stith, R. Rodgers, D. Scott, W. Williams, G. Lynch, E. Campbell and R. Fox. Googs was an All ACC selection his last two years.

    gw67

  7. #87
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    Lenny Bias. That is who Nolan reminds me of.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    Lenny Bias. That is who Nolan reminds me of.
    Bias was probably better at getting his own shot, w/o screens. Freak of nature.

    Ah, what could have been . . . .

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    IIRC, Ferry was the #1 or #2 Hs player in the country depending on who you asked (the kid who got hurt out of ND was the other guy --David Rivers? -- I remember J Dawkins reverse dunking on him in Cameron). Also, IIRC, Danny started a good number of games as a Frosh. I don't know where Nolan was ranked, but it is hard to think of someone who grew more at Duke. Shane Battier, maybe, although again I think Shane had a higher profile coming in.


    It should be noted that Ferry was a freshman on a team that starred seniors Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, David Henderson and Jay Bilas and junior Tommy Amaker. So, Duke didn't really need him to be more than a complementary player.

  10. #90
    Congrats Nolan on ACC POY. If his number isn't retired I am going to get a very tall ladder & hang it up there myself.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    It should be noted that Ferry was a freshman on a team that starred seniors Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, David Henderson and Jay Bilas and junior Tommy Amaker. So, Duke didn't really need him to be more than a complementary player.
    True, although I think David became "the best sixth man ever" in favor of Billy King and/or Danny at various points in time.

    Danny was one of the first outside-shooting big men, a role Christian Laettner perfected a few years later. Son of a coach as well, so he had off-the-chart court IQ. Could get a little bump-foul-shot off like no one's business.

    I still wonder what might have happened if he had not chosen to go to Italy after college in lieu of the Clippers (IIRC).

  12. #92

    Phil Henderson

    What about Phil Henderson as a measuring tape of a guy that developed from bench player to Duke star:

    Season Averages Courtesy of GoDuke player database:

    1986-87 11.8 mins/7.3 pts.

    1987-88 16.5/5.9

    1988-89 29.6/12.7

    1989-90 31.5/18.5

    By his senior year, Phil was the star of a national runner-up team and top scorer with a Sophomore Christian Laettner #2. Phil was also one of my favorite Duke players ever, just like Nolan. I don't recall him getting National recognition via AA team though.

  13. #93
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    Apr 2007
    The thing for Nolan is that he has improved every level of his game. And as the yahoosports NPOY article mentioned is contributing a ton off the court too. I think K will be looking for an excuse to retire this guy's jersey and even if this award isn't officially recognized, it's darn close, so he can maintain his standards and still retire Nolan.
    Yes, but Jersey retirements are for an entire career. I'd say Nolan really needs another NC (looking very unlikely now) to balance out the first two years. Otherwise, his resume' looks more like players that didn't get it than those who did. (Although some more NPOYs could make it close.)

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by hq2 View Post
    (looking very unlikely now)
    Not as unlikely-looking as this time last year, when Jon was struggling and there were some monster teams out there (Ky, Kansas, Syracuse, Purdue up until Hummel's injury). In fact, with two seniors who have been there before, I would say we have as good a chance as anyone and better than most.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by hq2 View Post
    Yes, but Jersey retirements are for an entire career. I'd say Nolan really needs another NC (looking very unlikely now) to balance out the first two years. Otherwise, his resume' looks more like players that didn't get it than those who did. (Although some more NPOYs could make it close.)
    Which player that didn't get his jersey retired does Nolan resemble? I've already said that I think he needs to steal one of the "major" NPOY awards from Jimmer to get it, but I can't really find anyone who is comparable to Nolan in this debate. It's true that Nolan's first two years are worse than anyone who got his jersey retired, but his last two are arguably better than anyone who didn't, especially if he adds the appropriate hardware. I mean, who has gone from losing a starting job his sophomore year to 1st team AA, possible NPOY (not counting website awards), ACCPOY, unanimous 1st team all-ACC, and all-ACC defensive team. If he rebounds well the rest of the way, he could be the only guy not named Dick Groat to ever average 20-5-5 for Duke. Considering that no one has ever both won a major NPOY award and graduated from Duke without getting his jersey retired, I have a hard time seeing Nolan passed over, no matter how this team does in the tourney.

    The only caveat for me is that it just doesn't feel right that Nolan could get his jersey retired and not Kyle. Kyle was better than Nolan each of their first three years, so it feels weird in that sense. As far as Kyle goes, I just can't see why Kyle should get his jersey retired if Mark Alarie didn't. At the end of the day though, I just don't know what will happen since like the website POY awards, this sort of thing is highly dependent on the whims of a very select few.
    Pratt '09
    GO DUKE!

  16. #96
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    I always thought it would be cool to somehow "retire" a jersey representing the starting 5 from last year especially if none of them get the honor individually. Somewhat similar to what Kentucky did with the "unforgettables".

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMatt33 View Post
    Which player that didn't get his jersey retired does Nolan resemble? I've already said that I think he needs to steal one of the "major" NPOY awards from Jimmer to get it, but I can't really find anyone who is comparable to Nolan in this debate. It's true that Nolan's first two years are worse than anyone who got his jersey retired, but his last two are arguably better than anyone who didn't, especially if he adds the appropriate hardware. I mean, who has gone from losing a starting job his sophomore year to 1st team AA, possible NPOY (not counting website awards), ACCPOY, unanimous 1st team all-ACC, and all-ACC defensive team. If he rebounds well the rest of the way, he could be the only guy not named Dick Groat to ever average 20-5-5 for Duke. Considering that no one has ever both won a major NPOY award and graduated from Duke without getting his jersey retired, I have a hard time seeing Nolan passed over, no matter how this team does in the tourney.

    The only caveat for me is that it just doesn't feel right that Nolan could get his jersey retired and not Kyle. Kyle was better than Nolan each of their first three years, so it feels weird in that sense. As far as Kyle goes, I just can't see why Kyle should get his jersey retired if Mark Alarie didn't. At the end of the day though, I just don't know what will happen since like the website POY awards, this sort of thing is highly dependent on the whims of a very select few.
    Somewhere recently, there was a very good discussion about Kyle compared to Alarie (who I wish they would retire). Kyle has the following national awards (at minimum):

    2010 NCAA Tournament Final Four Most Outstanding Player
    2010 Sporting News College Athlete of the Year

    So I think he could qualify under the criteria. And, as I have said before, he came back when most thought he would not. Loyalty should count for something. Plus, Nolan said that he would have gone if Kyle had gone. So that's a two-fer.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMatt33 View Post
    Which player that didn't get his jersey retired does Nolan resemble? I've already said that I think he needs to steal one of the "major" NPOY awards from Jimmer to get it, but I can't really find anyone who is comparable to Nolan in this debate. It's true that Nolan's first two years are worse than anyone who got his jersey retired, but his last two are arguably better than anyone who didn't, especially if he adds the appropriate hardware. I mean, who has gone from losing a starting job his sophomore year to 1st team AA, possible NPOY (not counting website awards), ACCPOY, unanimous 1st team all-ACC, and all-ACC defensive team. If he rebounds well the rest of the way, he could be the only guy not named Dick Groat to ever average 20-5-5 for Duke. Considering that no one has ever both won a major NPOY award and graduated from Duke without getting his jersey retired, I have a hard time seeing Nolan passed over, no matter how this team does in the tourney.

    The only caveat for me is that it just doesn't feel right that Nolan could get his jersey retired and not Kyle. Kyle was better than Nolan each of their first three years, so it feels weird in that sense. As far as Kyle goes, I just can't see why Kyle should get his jersey retired if Mark Alarie didn't. At the end of the day though, I just don't know what will happen since like the website POY awards, this sort of thing is highly dependent on the whims of a very select few.
    You voice a lot of the ifs/ands/buts that go into the jersey retirement arguments.

    The major thing that sets Nolan and Kyle ahead of Alarie and Langdon is last year's title and their huge role in winning it. Alarie and Langdon fell short on the title (while Scheyer finished 2nd team AA and out of the top 5 in career scoring). Also, there's a lot of basketball left to be played this year. The more wins and titles and awards they rack up, the easier a case they will have. Another Final Four appearance and these guys leap-frog Redick-Williams in my estimation. Nolan and Kyle do seem tied to one another in their chances in most people's minds though.

  19. #99
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    I'm not sure there is a difference any more in prestige between "website" and print-media awards, unless it's with people 60+ years old. Websites *are* the dominant media now, and print media will never again be what they were. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is the case.
    Quel est si drole de la paix, de l'amour, et de la comprehension?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForkFondler View Post
    Lenny Bias. That is who Nolan reminds me of.
    Not sure how Nolan is like Bias, who was a 6'8" power forward (other than being great players).

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