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  1. #21

    Simple Answer...

    Quote Originally Posted by swood1000 View Post
    But why should we assume that, unlike golfers, basketball players are not eligible for the big time endorsement contracts?
    Compare the price of basketball shoes to a set of golf clubs and apparel and accessories. Also, note the relative disposable income of civilian golfers compared to people who buy basketball shoes.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    My point is that, based on the SI list you linked, the total income of almost all the NBA players on that list is heavily weighted toward salary, not endorsements. And my main point is that endorsement income will follow performance in the NBA, not in college.
    This certainly has been the way people have approached it, but isn't a different approach worth consideration? John Wall got his endorsement contract after no time in the NBA.

    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    If John Wall gets injured or plays like a scrub, they won't be buying his shoes anymore. Even for a once-in-a-generation talent like LeBron, if he wasn't producing IN THE NBA, there go the endorsements.
    Joe Dimaggio was endorsing Mr. Coffee well after he stopped playing baseball.

  3. #23
    any player projected in the top 3 is going to get a lucrative endorsement deal. Coming back is not going to enhance his first endorsement deals, and only his play in the league is going to enhance his second.

    To play devils advocate - what about a player who played 10 games in college, had an injury that really made him take stock of his career, and has seen his national profile sky rocket because of people contemplating "what could have been" if he had been healthy. He has a chance to capitalize on all that positive energy, or he can run the risk of coming back and potentially not performing up to expected levels, and seeing his national profile slip off...

    wouldn't that player be well served to leave early and strike while the iron is hot, knowing that everyone and their father predict him to be a star at the next level?
    My Quick Smells Like French Toast.

  4. #24

    Remember...

    Quote Originally Posted by swood1000 View Post
    Joe Dimaggio was endorsing Mr. Coffee well after he stopped playing baseball.
    That was MANY years ago. Joe was an American icon in a different time, you could even say a different America. Strikes me as an apples and oranges comparison. Sadly, I'd also venture that Joe resonated with White America in a way that almost no NBA player can.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    Compare the price of basketball shoes to a set of golf clubs and apparel and accessories. Also, note the relative disposable income of civilian golfers compared to people who buy basketball shoes.
    Why do we limit it to basketball shoes? Joe Dimaggio sells Mr. Coffee. George Foreman sells electric grills. The principal impediment seems to be whether the person buying a particular product can identify with a given athlete. Some athletes may only be appealing to those buying basketball shoes. Not all athletes, though.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    Sadly, I'd also venture that Joe resonated with White America in a way that almost no NBA player can.
    Sadly, I would agree with you. But the key word is "almost." Take a basketball player, black or white, who is highly educated, very articulate, and charismatic, and a whole different set of possibilities is in play.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by swood1000 View Post
    Sadly, I would agree with you. But the key word is "almost." Take a basketball player, black or white, who is highly educated, very articulate, and charismatic, and a whole different set of possibilities is in play.
    I just don't agree with the original premise to which you responded even in the slightest. Sure, circa 1960 America would not have dreamed of a non melanin-deficient individual repping a major ad campaign, but the 80's/90's saw that change and the 2000's cemented that notion as one best suited to college classes on the history of racial perception in America. Pitchmen/women are there because they are representative of our aspirations. It is clear that sports and music are filled with people graced with melanin who represent the dreams of the purchasing public.

    Given how rapidly the racial climate in this country has changed, we are in the most amazing position of having the oldest generation alive remembering the overt racism of the 1960's and before, a middle generation who was born as that was changing and so grew up in a society that was responding to that change, and finally a younger generation that has no real concept of what the oldest generation is talking about when it comes to race.

    Even as a teenager, I always felt the core of the solution to melanin-based bigotry was just a matter of time -- for time would bring the death of those generations poisoned by bigotry. I am by no means saying that the legacy of slavery and the racial prejudice which underpinned it does not live on quite strongly in a variety of ways. But to argue that longevity as a pitchman (Dimaggio, Palmer, etc.) is strongly correlated to the person's race simply misses the sea change that has happened in the lifetime of anyone older than about thirty in this area.

  8. #28
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    I think it is unlikely that a player who would be a top 3 pick after his freshman year would increase his endorsement value significantly enough to offset 3 years of nba salary. That being said I can think of one example where that may have happened: Tim Duncan. I'm not sure where he would have been drafted after his freshman year but he was a consensus top pick after his sophomore year but stuck around for 2 more seasons anyway. He a) wasn't a finished project after his first 2 season so he probably would not have been the instance success he became a few years later and b) being a quite guy probably wouldn't have gotten the initial endorsements he got becoming the face of ncaa basketball for 3 years. The star power of being the guy who said no to nba riches 3 times may have made up for the 3 years of lost salary. Unless the rookie salary scale hadn't come into play at that point, then I'm not sure it would have.

    There are also a few players that if they had stuck around an extra year may have made up for the lost salary with endorsements. One player that comes to mind is Maggette. Because Duke was so loaded in '99, he didn't get a ton of publicity but if he had come back for his sophomore year and had the monster year that was expected he may have been the darling of the 2000 draft (which was quite lack luster BTW). With his smile he may (may being the key word) have become a marketing hit and more than made up unpaid season.

    Irving could be in a similar situation, at least if he doesn't come back this season. Because he missed most of the season and there are bound to be questions about his health, companies may be (may the key word again) hesitant to sign large endorsement deals. If he came back and showed his winning personality and game, the endorsement value could be huge. Large enough to offset 3 years salary though, I highly doubt it.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    any player projected in the top 3 is going to get a lucrative endorsement deal. Coming back is not going to enhance his first endorsement deals, and only his play in the league is going to enhance his second.
    I'm not sure that everyone would agree that a lucrative endorsement contract is a "done deal" for the top three, nor whether the contract could be made more lucrative by further exposure in college.

    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    To play devils advocate - what about a player who played 10 games in college, had an injury that really made him take stock of his career, and has seen his national profile sky rocket because of people contemplating "what could have been" if he had been healthy. He has a chance to capitalize on all that positive energy, or he can run the risk of coming back and potentially not performing up to expected levels, and seeing his national profile slip off...

    wouldn't that player be well served to leave early and strike while the iron is hot, knowing that everyone and their father predict him to be a star at the next level?
    It will always be the case that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The question is how many there are in the bush and how likely it is that they can be gotten.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange&BlackSheep View Post
    I just don't agree with the original premise to which you responded even in the slightest. Sure, circa 1960 America would not have dreamed of a non melanin-deficient individual repping a major ad campaign, but the 80's/90's saw that change and the 2000's cemented that notion as one best suited to college classes on the history of racial perception in America. Pitchmen/women are there because they are representative of our aspirations. It is clear that sports and music are filled with people graced with melanin who represent the dreams of the purchasing public.

    Given how rapidly the racial climate in this country has changed, we are in the most amazing position of having the oldest generation alive remembering the overt racism of the 1960's and before, a middle generation who was born as that was changing and so grew up in a society that was responding to that change, and finally a younger generation that has no real concept of what the oldest generation is talking about when it comes to race.

    Even as a teenager, I always felt the core of the solution to melanin-based bigotry was just a matter of time -- for time would bring the death of those generations poisoned by bigotry. I am by no means saying that the legacy of slavery and the racial prejudice which underpinned it does not live on quite strongly in a variety of ways. But to argue that longevity as a pitchman (Dimaggio, Palmer, etc.) is strongly correlated to the person's race simply misses the sea change that has happened in the lifetime of anyone older than about thirty in this area.
    It seems to me that when it comes to endorsements the question is cultural more than racial, and it comes down to whether the buying public can identify with the athlete. If he comes from a culture with different norms, and if he speaks in a vernacular that is difficult to understand, and if he appears to be not as well educated, these things can inhibit the kind of identification that is necessary to effectively promote a product. It's a complicated business, of which I am no expert.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by swood1000 View Post

    It will always be the case that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The question is how many there are in the bush and how likely it is that they can be gotten.
    And, of course you have to factor in how bird doo all over your hand matters!

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by yancem View Post
    If he came back and showed his winning personality and game, the endorsement value could be huge. Large enough to offset 3 years salary though, I highly doubt it.
    One reason we don't know is that nobody has tried it. We don't know what a sensation would be created if a number one pick stayed around that long, and what effect it would have on his marketability.

    Another uncertainty is the amount of a year of salary, currently under negotiation. But suppose we are talking about the current levels http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9302. If we can say confidently that it is very unlikely that could increase his endorsement value over his lifetime by significantly more than that amount then the question has been answered. The wall I keep running into is my ignorance of how difficult is is to get things to happen in the marketing and promotion area.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgtr View Post
    And, of course you have to factor in how bird doo all over your hand matters!
    I thought that was a given.

  14. #34

    Apologies

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange&BlackSheep View Post
    I just don't agree with the original premise to which you responded even in the slightest. Sure, circa 1960 America would not have dreamed of a non melanin-deficient individual repping a major ad campaign, but the 80's/90's saw that change and the 2000's cemented that notion as one best suited to college classes on the history of racial perception in America. Pitchmen/women are there because they are representative of our aspirations. It is clear that sports and music are filled with people graced with melanin who represent the dreams of the purchasing public.

    Given how rapidly the racial climate in this country has changed, we are in the most amazing position of having the oldest generation alive remembering the overt racism of the 1960's and before, a middle generation who was born as that was changing and so grew up in a society that was responding to that change, and finally a younger generation that has no real concept of what the oldest generation is talking about when it comes to race.

    Even as a teenager, I always felt the core of the solution to melanin-based bigotry was just a matter of time -- for time would bring the death of those generations poisoned by bigotry. I am by no means saying that the legacy of slavery and the racial prejudice which underpinned it does not live on quite strongly in a variety of ways. But to argue that longevity as a pitchman (Dimaggio, Palmer, etc.) is strongly correlated to the person's race simply misses the sea change that has happened in the lifetime of anyone older than about thirty in this area.
    You're correct. Poorly worded on my part. I just don't think the original Joe DiMaggio/Mr. Coffee example (as it was presented as a rebuttal to my statement about John Wall) is a good comparison, in this case.

  15. #35
    Louis Williams

    Sebastian Telfair

    Shaun Livinston

    Brandon Jennings

    All high school wunderkind guards.

    If any one of these players had gone to a basketball powerhouse with lots of national media exposure, playing in Final Fours and contending for national championships, a much bigger part of the basketball-viewing world would pay attention and take an interest in following the success or failure of that player. The popularity resulting from being a high-profile college star can be an advantage in a number of ways, not simply signing endorsement deals.

    Look at Jay Williams. He had a much too short NBA career, but his recognition and association with Duke basketball and the University I believe helped him greatly in pursuing other career paths, such as professional sports agency and broadcasting.

    Of course, I am not arguing that the college experience is for everyone. Not everyone has intellectual curiosity and an interest in the wider world and meeting other intelligent people from a variety of backgrounds, such that the college experience would be valuable in and of itself. People with no such interests may find college such a drag that even though the name recognition and popularity from college play might be advantageous, they would nevertheless be happier just skipping it altogether or minimizing it.

    But once you build that connection with a school like Duke over a multiple-year period, you will be a part of that university community and basketball family for the rest of your career, indeed life.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by swood1000 View Post
    This certainly has been the way people have approached it, but isn't a different approach worth consideration? John Wall got his endorsement contract after no time in the NBA.



    Joe Dimaggio was endorsing Mr. Coffee well after he stopped playing baseball.
    Joe Dimaggio was an icon.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by swood1000 View Post
    One reason we don't know is that nobody has tried it. We don't know what a sensation would be created if a number one pick stayed around that long, and what effect it would have on his marketability.
    Well, Jason Williams was reputed to be a top 3 pick after his sophomore year, and he came back. It didn't translate into immediate endorsement dollars after his junior year, and we don't know how the rest of it would have played out given his injury.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    You're correct. Poorly worded on my part. I just don't think the original Joe DiMaggio/Mr. Coffee example (as it was presented as a rebuttal to my statement about John Wall) is a good comparison, in this case.
    Instead of Jo DiMaggio we can use O.J. Simpson running through airports on behalf of Hertz. My point is that when an athlete retires he does not immediately lose all the positive associations that make him marketable. It seems clear that there are an abundance of retired athletes who are still endorsing products. Of course, if the athlete doesn't retire soon enough and begins to be thought of as second-rate, then he loses his endorsement potential. I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be in fact easier in some cases to reach the necessary level of name recognition and positive association in college.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Joe Dimaggio was an icon.
    O.J. Simpson running through airports for Hertz. There are any number of retired athletes who are still endorsing products quite profitably.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Well, Jason Williams was reputed to be a top 3 pick after his sophomore year, and he came back. It didn't translate into immediate endorsement dollars after his junior year, and we don't know how the rest of it would have played out given his injury.
    Staying around one year as a top pick would have some impact, but not as much as staying around three years as a top pick. After three years of being constantly in the news, constantly the focus of intense national attention, adulation and speculation, and especially if one or more national titles were won, a person's name recognition and positive association would probably improve dramatically. Whether that improvement would translate into sufficiently increased endorsement potential is the question.

    Also, the endorsement dollars need not be immediate. Suppose the increased name recognition translates into endorsement dollars that are 1/10 of the salary that he gave up, but the endorsement potential lasts for twenty years. Furthermore, the increased name recognition could simply provide a base upon which to build in the NBA. So he starts out with X instead of zero. And if he improves his name association he has X + Y instead of zero plus Y. Or in some cases it could give him the ability to do national endorsements since he now has national name recognition, whereas without this he would have been stuck doing only local endorsements and without an easy way of getting national recognition.

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