UNC Football Scandal - The Beat Goes On

[-bdbd]

THAT nincompoop...

Stu Scott, my all-time sports villain. He of the "yellow journalism" school of the ridiculous from CH, in his "hang them, then try them" coverage of the Nifong (NC grad)-created LAX scandal and a multi-part series on "Does Duke get all the calls???!" [Note, in a "you can't make this stuff up" footnote, that series kicked off on a Sportscenter eposode right after a game where Duke was upset at FSU by a field-goal, after being whistled for 30+ fouls (twice that of FSU) and having every single starter foul out of the game; yet he still managed to find one play to question, and played it over, and over again - a close, judgement decision on a Sheldon goal-tending non-call.]

Yeah, he's a gem. (Really surprised he's still around.)


P.S. Gotta think that the stuff at OSU can't bode any good tidings for what is going to get adjudicated eventually by the NCAA in Chapel Hill...

[moonpie23]

unfortunately, i am beginning to think that they are going to get away with a couple slaps on the wrist...

this is nothing like the usc or osu situations...they've kept butch, no one in the media is bringing forth anything devastating... one of their players showed up at a party...no big deal...

yeah, they're gonna skate...

[oldnavy]

unfortunately, i am beginning to think that they are going to get away with a couple slaps on the wrist...

this is nothing like the usc or osu situations...they've kept butch, no one in the media is bringing forth anything devastating... one of their players showed up at a party...no big deal...

yeah, they're gonna skate...

I have to think that this may set them up for even a bigger fall later on. It is much easier to cheat after you have been allowed to get away with it... just take a look at Tressel's history. By all accounts a pretty decent man, but was allowed to go unpunished for several transcreations going all the way back to Youngstown State.

If UNC sees that this kind of behavior is tolerated with little recourse, then why stop? Especially if you want to be a big time football program. The "Carolina Way" is no more. Any UNC fan that tries to take the holier than thou approach just needs to be reminded of how UNC rationalized all of this.

The best excuse I have heard is that "Butch didn't know". Really? The man is paid millions of dollars to be in charge, and his right hand man is a know cheater, and he didn't know? I find that enough reason right there to fire the man. He is supposed to know and even if he didn't (which I find hard to believe) he should have! Could he have done anything more to show that he is incompetent to run a program than not knowing what his closest assistant is doing and that there is wide spread NCAA violations occuring right under his nose? This isn't a case of a trainer or assistant linebacker coach and a couple of players, or just a player or two... this was multiple players and his next in line coach... Well they can hide behind the claim he didn't know, but to me that would be almost as bad. If I pay someone a couple of million a year, I want them to know. But hey, that's just me.

Stand by... It always has a way of catching up to you.

[sagegrouse]

unfortunately, i am beginning to think that they are going to get away with a couple slaps on the wrist...

this is nothing like the usc or osu situations...they've kept butch, no one in the media is bringing forth anything devastating... one of their players showed up at a party...no big deal...

yeah, they're gonna skate...

I think UNC will get what the NCAA views as severe penalties, such as loss of scholarships in football and double-secret probation for every sport, including intramural ping pong. I believe the penalites will have only a marginal effect on the teams affected.

I expect the coaches to survive absent a smoking gun (Tressel had two smoking guns in his hand). Even though the UNC administration would probably like to rid themselves of Butch, as a sop to its integrity, his loss could be devastating to a program likely to lose ten scholarships per year for three years.

I suppose UNC could also receive a football bowl ban of one or more years. I don't see anything likely to derail the basketball program, unless there is a future violation (where the probation could be a factor).

Even though the UNC violations are arguably more serious than Ohio State's, the smoking guns in Tressel's hands are catnip to a prosecutor -- he forwarded the accusatory e-mail to the player's "mentor," thereby proving he read it, and not to OSU compliance officials. And then he lied about it.

And the fascination with smoking guns is not limited to the NCAA. The pursuit of Goldman trader Fabrice Tourre by the SEC is because he wrote a bunch of e-mails, now in the hands of the SEC, joking about cheating widows and orphans. No one else has been named, even though Tourre was a mere functionary, and his bosses made all the decisions about the disastrous mortgage securities.

sagegrouse

[Highlander]

Stu Scott, my all-time sports villain. He of the "yellow journalism" school of the ridiculous from CH, in his "hang them, then try them" coverage of the Nifong (NC grad)-created LAX scandal and a multi-part series on "Does Duke get all the calls???!" [Note, in a "you can't make this stuff up" footnote, that series kicked off on a Sportscenter eposode right after a game where Duke was upset at FSU by a field-goal, after being whistled for 30+ fouls (twice that of FSU) and having every single starter foul out of the game; yet he still managed to find one play to question, and played it over, and over again - a close, judgement decision on a Sheldon goal-tending non-call.]

Yeah, he's a gem. (Really surprised he's still around.)

Per this article, Stuart Scott has cancer (again). He's going thru chemo and recently had surgery. This is the second time he's been diagnosed with cancer, the last time was 3 years ago. The fact that it has come back is not a good sign. So while I don't necessarily like him as a commentator, I'd suggest we lay off the Stuart Scott critiques for awhile.

[shoutingncu]

Look on the bright side though DD, it got their Football Program to the top of the College Football world! Oh wait, maybe not...

Of course we were at the top of the football world:

"The 2011 NFL Draft was the biggest moment in Carolina Football history." -- John Calipari

[-bdbd]

Per this article, Stuart Scott has cancer (again). He's going thru chemo and recently had surgery. This is the second time he's been diagnosed with cancer, the last time was 3 years ago. The fact that it has come back is not a good sign. So while I don't necessarily like him as a commentator, I'd suggest we lay off the Stuart Scott critiques for awhile.

Thx. Sorry to hear that. Wasn't aware. Of course doesn't change the evaluation of his anti-Duke theatrics on SC over the years. But I do wish him well in this fight. Nobody ever deserves that kind of illness.

[richardjackson199]

So first reports sound like UNC is going to lose a minimal amount of scholarships, get probation (say you're sorry and don't do it again Billy), and possibly forfeit some wins. They will not be hit with "loss of institutional control," no postseason bans, no TV contract bans, and they keep Butch who of course knew nothing about what his main assistant, players, tutors, etc. were doing. UNC is getting off much better than USC or Ohio State. And given how widespread the problems at UNC were, this slap on the wrist seems to do virtually nothing to actually punish them. Lame.

[oldnavy]

So first reports sound like UNC is going to lose a minimal amount of scholarships, get probation (say you're sorry and don't do it again Billy), and possibly forfeit some wins. They will not be hit with "loss of institutional control," no postseason bans, no TV contract bans, and they keep Butch who of course knew nothing about what his main assistant, players, tutors, etc. were doing. UNC is getting off much better than USC or Ohio State. And given how widespread the problems at UNC were, this slap on the wrist seems to do virtually nothing to actually punish them. Lame.

And they keep paying millions to the man in charge... who actually knows nothing at all about what the people he is responsible for are doing!

I guess it is easy to rationalize and forget that a major part of his job is to prevent the very thing that happened from happening as long as it looks like your program is heading towards being a top ten contender.

I still can't get over the "I had no idea" excuse. I guess I spent too many years in an organization that actually held those in charge responsible.

[arnie]

And they keep paying millions to the man in charge... who actually knows nothing at all about what the people he is responsible for are doing!

I guess it is easy to rationalize and forget that a major part of his job is to prevent the very thing that happened from happening as long as it looks like your program is heading towards being a top ten contender.

I still can't get over the "I had no idea" excuse. I guess I spent too many years in an organization that actually held those in charge responsible.

Not sure Duke should continue playing teams like the heels anymore. The heels bring in players with no academic qualifications (Clemson rejects), promise them they will be tutored through the program and promise immediate contact with agents. So if that's how they treat college football (and we aren't going to do that), why continue to play them? The ACC has trended in that direction and with the possible exceptions of BC and maybe WF/GAT; the rest of the teams don't recruit with any academic standards.

[JStuart]

And they keep paying millions to the man in charge... who actually knows nothing at all about what the people he is responsible for are doing!

I guess it is easy to rationalize and forget that a major part of his job is to prevent the very thing that happened from happening as long as it looks like your program is heading towards being a top ten contender.

I still can't get over the "I had no idea" excuse. I guess I spent too many years in an organization that actually held those in charge responsible.

No truer words have been spoken, OldNavy; my thoughts exactly. Why any self-respecting unc grad wouldn't say the same, and demand a thorough house-cleaning of the athletic department, I have no idea (well, yes, I do: they are unc fans, after all.)

[davekay1971]

This is a slap on the wrist, at best, and further supports the notion that the NCAA is a bad joke. If what's been going on at UNC isn't the textbook definition of a lack of institutional control, I don't know what is.

The only outcome from this will be the absolutely correct feeling on the part of Butch Davis, the UNC athletic department and administration, and their fanbase, that they got away with it.

As for the rest of us, we now know that the UNC faithful, and the NCAA, are all just fine with the new "Carolina way"

[Olympic Fan]

This is a slap on the wrist, at best, and further supports the notion that the NCAA is a bad joke. If what's been going on at UNC isn't the textbook definition of a lack of institutional control, I don't know what is.

The only outcome from this will be the absolutely correct feeling on the part of Butch Davis, the UNC athletic department and administration, and their fanbase, that they got away with it.

As for the rest of us, we now know that the UNC faithful, and the NCAA, are all just fine with the new "Carolina way"

You might be right, but let's wait and see what the penalties really are before we get our panties in a bunch. The source of all this information is a story by Greg Barnes on the Inside Carolina site. Barnes and IC have been consistently wrong about this story from the beginning -- and have consistently unestimated the impact.

[flash]

Butch Davis (Sgt Schultz), "I know nothing".

[Olympic Fan]

UNC just received the official letter of inquiry from the NCAA:

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/auto_pdf...eofInquiry0607

It's mostly a formality, except that it specifically states that the program "primarily football" is being officially investigated.

No more UNC BS about the "review" of their program.

[kong123]

You know, I really haven't followed the investigation at all and what I know about it has come from reading this thread. I understand the hatred you guys have for everything UNC. I understand it is far reaching and will grab for any negative and try and use it to feed your hate.

But, for you to comment that the "Carolina Way" is gone and that UNC hasn't been proactive enough is really silly. The NCAA will hand out the punishments and nothing short of the death penalty will satisfy you. "Davis should have been fired. Punish the basketball team, that's where it will really hurt. We shouldn't play UNC in football anymore because they cheat". I have heard tons of this stuff and it usually made me laugh because I thought you guys were just having fun. Now, I am not so sure.

I believe if someone did something wrong, they should pay the price. UNC immediately kicked many of the starters off the team when they learned of the issues. To claim that Butch knew everything and even allowed it is speculation at best and that isn't tolerated on this site. From everything we have read, UNC has cooperated 100% of the way. Is that enough? I believe the moderators should follow some of these comments more closely in order to make sure the rules are not broken.

[CameronBornAndBred]

You know, I really haven't followed the investigation at all and what I know about it has come from reading this thread. I understand the hatred you guys have for everything UNC. I understand it is far reaching and will grab for any negative and try and use it to feed your hate.

But, for you to comment that the "Carolina Way" is gone and that UNC hasn't been proactive enough is really silly. The NCAA will hand out the punishments and nothing short of the death penalty will satisfy you. "Davis should have been fired. Punish the basketball team, that's where it will really hurt. We shouldn't play UNC in football anymore because they cheat". I have heard tons of this stuff and it usually made me laugh because I thought you guys were just having fun. Now, I am not so sure.

I believe if someone did something wrong, they should pay the price. UNC immediately kicked many of the starters off the team when they learned of the issues. To claim that Butch knew everything and even allowed it is speculation at best and that isn't tolerated on this site. From everything we have read, UNC has cooperated 100% of the way. Is that enough? I believe the moderators should follow some of these comments more closely in order to make sure the rules are not broken.

Two comments...
First...who is "you"? That is a broad generalzation of the population of DBR. If you have specific names, at least quote what they say and respond with a decent debate. I've seen you do it before, not sure why you are including all of DBR in your reply this time.
Second..There may be a few, but I seriously doubt that the majority of us fall into the category of "nothing short of the death penalty will satisfy you".
You say "I believe if someone did something wrong, they should pay the price". I appreciate that. Now take off the baby blue glasses. I'll point you to ECU (as I've done already in this thread..and even FSU). ECU is more telling though. They got busted for cheating academically. They responded very quickly too, like you say carolina did, by kicking players off teams. Within ONE WEEK of their self report, every single sport in ECU was put on probation. Athletes were ruled permanently ineligible. Wins were vacated.
The sports involved? The massively revenue intensive baseball and women's tennis.
And now we have watched unc undergo a similar investigation, where they haven't admitted much but did take action internally, and they are about to get a wrist slap. Do the heels' transgressions warrant a death penalty? No. But they sure as hell should be above and beyond what ECU received, and it ain't gonna happen. And frankly, it is absolutely disgusting.

One last thought...the idea that your only knowledge of this case is through a Duke fan forum is hard to grasp. Go research on your own, and see if you still have your same opinion.

[JStuart]

To claim that Butch knew everything and even allowed it is speculation at best and that isn't tolerated on this site. From everything we have read, UNC has cooperated 100% of the way. Is that enough? I believe the moderators should follow some of these comments more closely in order to make sure the rules are not broken.

What annoys me no end is the total acceptance by unc fans/supporters that the coach 'didn't know' of all the bad things going on. Regardless, as head coach he is RESPONSIBLE for all that happens under his watch (and I've heard precious few unc folks say, get him out of there, and clean house). Baddour should take responsibility as well. Those statements are not speculation. If unc were 100% cooperative, why is there a group of newspapers (including the Daily Tarheel) and TV stations suing UNC for release of phone records, traffic tickets, and etc.?
JStuart

[Olympic Fan]

Kong,

If nothing else, Butch Davis is responsible for EVERYTHING John Blake did.

When he hired Blake, he had to know the reputation the man had. Everybody in college football knew the reputation of "Black Santa". He had to know that Blake had been a FULLTIME employee of an agent, charged with recruiting players for that agent.

Now, in itself, that's not enough to say that Davis shouldn't have hired Blake. But when you hire a former agent, aren't you responsible for making sure he doesn't continue to act as an agent? When it does turn out that he remained on the agent's payroll and helped funnel agent money to undergraduate players, can you then plead ignorance and suggest you couldn't be expected to know what was going on.

For that alone, Davis SHOULD be fired. If UNC had acted that way, I'd be the first to suggest they deserved minimal penalties. But when the school accepts his "Sgt. Shultz defense" and closes ranks around him, they deserve everything they get.

In Southern Cal, they got massive penalties (including a two-year bowl ban, forfeiture of games and loss of 20-some scholarships) because one assistant coach either knew or should have known that one player was receiving benefits. In UNC's case, we have over a dozen players receiving illegal benefits and an assistant coach (actually the Associate Head Coach) not only knew, but he actually funnelled the benefits to them. We also have a alleged drug dealer/agent given full access to the UNC facilities during the time Davis was supposed to be monitoring the program.

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the academic side of the scandal -- where it just so happened that the tutor helping players cheat was the one hired by Butch Davis to tutor his own son ... I guess that's just a coincience.

No, I don't think UNC should get the death penalty. But I do think Butch Davis should have been fired when Blake's misdeeds became known. But then, not even Blake was fired -- he was allowed to resign with full pay.

When UNC cast its lot with Davis, they threw away a hard-earned reputation for honesty. I used to defend the Carolina Way ... now, I don't see much difference between the Carolina way or the Auburn way or the Ohio State way.

[OldPhiKap]

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the academic side of the scandal -- where it just so happened that the tutor helping players cheat was the one hired by Butch Davis to tutor his own son ... I guess that's just a coincience.

This is the part I find most disturbing. "The Carolina Way," no matter what else anyone wants to say, involved a sense of academic integrity (at least in my mind). UNC is a proud and fine institution. It does not appear to me that that the university is particularly proactive in finding out what happened here and handing out stern punishment. And the fact that much of the fanbase doesn't really see this as much of a problem is disconcerting to me.

Maybe I've been given UNC more credit than it deserves up to this point.