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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis

    Classical Music question

    Hey Classical peeps: I have a question about Mahler 6. If I'm not mistaken, 6 could be "plot-summarized" more or less as follows.

    In the 1st mvt, there is an A theme of a martial character, rather pessimistic. Then there is the B theme, which has been called "Alma." These two contest with each other in one form or another, developed into this or that, throughout the whole work, and "Alma" seems to be entrenched at the end of the 1st mvt. But in the finale, Theme A [and the key of a-minor] conclusively and brutally "win," indeed, almost "killing" Theme B and just about everything else.


    What other works in the Symphonic repertory display the same degree of antagonism between the A subject and the B subject? Particularly, works in which that happens throughout not just one movement but the whole work? Does this happen at all in opera? I had a music professor in college who mentioned that Manrico in Il Trovatore traipses between two keys; I forget what the keys are, but he's got a Leonora key and a Azucena key, and he stays in the key of whichever woman, lover or momma, has him whipped at the moment. I wonder if something happens with those two keys, at the end, when Manrico dies. Wagner also has motives "contest" with each other, but not usually in a bilateral fashion for an entire work.

    I'm also reminded of sort of the opposite phenomenon in the slow movement of Beethoven 9, the beautiful double theme and variations in...what is it, I forget, B-flat Major? The two are in perfect harmony with each other.

    I'm also also reminded of Symphony Fantastique...but that's not the same thing. Berlioz takes the Idée fixe and, in essence transforms his ex-girlfriend into a squawky, shrill e-flat clarinet witch. But I don't think there's a contest between two motives.

    It seems like the sort of thing Shostakovich would do, but I can't think of an example.

    The closest example I can readily think of is how in the last movmement of Beethoven 9, he recalls each of the previous three movements, and the cello/bass chorale "rejects" each of them. This rejection is then made explicit in the first line of the text, "O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!"

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  2. #2
    Wow Throaty! Remind me to keep my piehole shut on snrubchat next time. You, sir, are far above the ordinary unwashed poster, aka me...but I do try to wash daily, I promise.
    And I am not being sarcastic! Just respectfully admiring. Do you teach?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Throaty, as I was reading your post, I was thinking of the third movement of the Beethoven Ninth, but you articulated the point better than I would have. I don't have an answer to your question as I sit here but I'll ponder it.

    There's a new book out there called The Ninth: Beethoven and the World in 1824 (or words to that effect). A big chunk of it was over my head, but it was a worthwhile read.

  4. #4

    Beethoven's a good place to look

    I think you might find some good examples of this in Beethoven's string quartets, but I'm drawing a blank as to which ones. The late period quartets have a fair bit of metamorphosis of themes, while his middle period quartets have some fairly operatic tendencies with themes in opposition.

    Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is a bit like you are describing Mahler's Sixth. The "fate" motif in c-minor (short-short-short-loooong) from the first movement is transformed over the course of the symphony into a heroic motif in c-major by the last movement. However, it's not so much one motif triumphing (or killing) another motif as much as it is about the motif transforming. I suppose the first movement of the symphony has the martial Theme A (i.e., fate motif) triumph over the lyrical Theme B.

  5. #5

    Maybe you should try

    I just think is is odd that Mahler writes his Tragic Symphony during what was supposed to be the happiest time of his life. I am not sure if I would ignore Wagner in this case. The march motif of the Reminds me of Reinzi, of course I may be alone in that assessment. Of course form wise I don't know exactly where to start, giving that Mahler is so true to sonata form, that he repeats the exposition exactly. Of course when it comes to the true idea of Romanticisim we are constanly reminded of the ideas of fate, destiny, and perhaps nostalgia. I would guesstimate this movement would reflect upon the happier times, like the birth of his first daughter. Which is why we see such a brutal final movement, that is most likely about the death of that same daughter, which if memory serves me, died while he composed it. Thus giving us this transformation from starting with A maj (beginning of life) to ending with the hammers in A min (death).

    Don't know if he started writing about it this way, or if life just happened. But I think that Wagner's Tristan and Isolde may not be a bad example. While obviously on a smaller scale it shows that struggle with hope, and loss, and fate.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Great posts, all, thank you very much. I can hear that M6-Rienzi thing in my head, DBFan.

    Here are some other examples folks came up with on my FBook.

    --Prokofiev RoJu (Capulet v Montague)
    --Mahler 1
    --Nationalist motifs in 1812 Overture
    --Shotskovich 5 and 10

    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Wow Throaty! Remind me to keep my piehole shut on snrubchat next time. You, sir, are far above the ordinary unwashed poster, aka me...but I do try to wash daily, I promise.
    And I am not being sarcastic! Just respectfully admiring. Do you teach?
    I teach Linguistics but I am a very enthusiastic gentleman amateur when it comes to music.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ashburn, VA
    I remember reading this and then forgetting to respond. The easiest examples probably come from music based on real-world events or works from other fields. Montagues and Capulets and 1812 immediately came to mind, but it seems your FB friends already knocked those off. I'm sure if I looked through my playlist some more would come to mind.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Southern Pines, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Great posts, all, thank you very much. I can hear that M6-Rienzi thing in my head, DBFan.

    Here are some other examples folks came up with on my FBook.

    --Prokofiev RoJu (Capulet v Montague)
    --Mahler 1
    --Nationalist motifs in 1812 Overture
    --Shotskovich 5 and 10



    I teach Linguistics but I am a very enthusiastic gentleman amateur when it comes to music.
    Throaty, that list is right out of my course in Music Appreciation in the old Duke East Building about 60 years or so ago. Quite a step forward for a Hank Williams fan whose music preferences now include classical, jazz, the Beatles, and the Eagles.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Brahm's Tragic Overture comes to mind - tension through the whole piece between two themes of uplifting/yearning, and defeat.

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