MBB: Duke 79, UNC 73 Post-Game Thread

[jipops]

I'll take heat for this and that is fine, but...

if a low post recruit is looking at UNC and Duke, I am not sure he should look at whether or not the school has impact players in the NBA. Duke has 3 low post guys currently in the pros, Boozer is doing well, you never hear about Brand anymore, and who knows where Williams is now. UNC had Rasheed, has an older Jamison, and Haywood is starting for the team with one of the best records in the league. Hansbrough and McRoberts are a wash. McRoberts is starting but TH's numbers are better despite less minutes. Ed Davis is doing OK for a rookie and Marvin Williams is doing OK as well.


Now this is my point. UNC nor Duke can make a kid an NBA all-star. That is up to the kid. All players are not created equally. Boozer and Brand would have been great players regardless of where they went to school. The same goes for most collegiate athletes. Talent and skill level can be refined in college, but NBA drafts players based on their god given abilities. What UNC and Duke can do is run an offense that benefits the skill level of the kid. If you look at the last 5 or 6 years, UNC has an offense that goes inside and then out. Whether or not Duke has had inside talent in the past or not, if you look at the direction Duke appears to be going and you look at where they are now, its hard to debate this issue. Sure, you can point to the past and say look at what we have done, or you can look at what a team does every year.

So, you can call it a myth and you can point to the past as backup, but if you look at the here and now as well as look to the past, UNC has the better track record of having an inside presence to their offense and getting their bigs to the pros. What the kid does once he gets to the pros is up to him. Players like TP see themselves as a future pro and I would imagine they like watching a team that utilizes their bigs for something other than a screen.

Funny you bring up Haywood. He's had one productive year in the NBA and it was his contract year. Since then he's gone back to being 6 fouls and a virtual non-factor. He's a bad example for your argument. Also, if UNC is so good at getting their big-guys to the pros, where is Deon Thompson right now? He came to UNC with tons of offensive skill.

And I contend your argument is very flawed and subjective. I completely agree that no program makes a kid an all-star. That is totally on the player himself. I also cannot stand the argument that certain programs churn out more NBA players than others. That is complete hogwash. Wake Forest must be pretty awesome for producing the greatest power forward of all-time and Chris Paul right? It isn't UNC's fault that Sean May is a gigantic nba bust.

UNC has had a better track record of inside talent for the simplest of reasons, they've had a ton more recruited front court talent lately with ready-made offensive skill. Also, I think K's willingness and ability to adjust to his personnel has gotten him in a bit of trouble lately with recruiting big guys. There is no secret that Duke gets hit with some negative recruiting and with Duke's lack of offensive production from inside the paint since Shelden, prospective big men have at times been scared away. Yet, if you go back to the days of Brand, Ferry, Laettner those offenses always keyed off the paint. I didn't mention Boozer b/c obviously the overwhelming strength of that team was on the perimeter but Boozer did manage to get enough touches to be a double figure scorer. In the days of Brand, he touched the ball on almost every offensive possession from day 1. His freshman year K spoke quite clearly how he thought he was already the best center in the ACC and he was going to use him like he was... and he did. Though Shelden was obviously not the focal point because of a certain great scorer named JJ, he was still double-double guy. Imagine how much more productive he would have been if he had played with a point guard his junior and senior seasons?

If K were to finally land a physical, offensively skilled big man again, I guarantee you he would be the focus on the offense the same way Brand was, not someone that you see as just being there to set screens.

[Jderf]

Now this is my point. UNC nor Duke can make a kid an NBA all-star. That is up to the kid. All players are not created equally. Boozer and Brand would have been great players regardless of where they went to school. The same goes for most collegiate athletes. Talent and skill level can be refined in college, but NBA drafts players based on their god given abilities. What UNC and Duke can do is run an offense that benefits the skill level of the kid. If you look at the last 5 or 6 years, UNC has an offense that goes inside and then out. Whether or not Duke has had inside talent in the past or not, if you look at the direction Duke appears to be going and you look at where they are now, its hard to debate this issue. Sure, you can point to the past and say look at what we have done, or you can look at what a team does every year.

So, you can call it a myth and you can point to the past as backup, but if you look at the here and now as well as look to the past, UNC has the better track record of having an inside presence to their offense and getting their bigs to the pros. What the kid does once he gets to the pros is up to him. Players like TP see themselves as a future pro and I would imagine they like watching a team that utilizes their bigs for something other than a screen.

Yes, but Duke has a pretty strong resumé in terms of adjusting to the roster and creating offenses and defenses that maximize the talent available. Looking at the "here and now," consider the last year: Duke was a slow (but extremely efficient) halfcourt team, which was completely revamped due to the introduction of a single player, and which now (since that player's injury) is again in the process of being revamped to fit the current roster. Three completely different teams in a one-year period, all for the sake of adjusting to the available players.

When the staff makes their pitch, they are going to make a concerted effort to point this out to Mr. Parker, while also showing him just how well Coach K has adjusted in the past when he has a strong low-post scorer available. Regardless of "public perception," Parker is going to see and hear about Coach K's strong track record with bigs. He's going to see and hear about K's 30-year career with dominant forwards (as opposed to a five year "downturn"). He's going to see and hear about Brand, Boozer, Shel, Ferry, Laettner and the like. Parker is going to know that, if he comes to Duke, he will be doing a lot more than just setting screens.

Of course, it will always be his decision, and he may still choose UNC. But if he does, "Duke's inability to develop bigs" won't be the reason.

[-bdbd]

I'll take heat for this and that is fine, but...

if a low post recruit is looking at UNC and Duke, I am not sure he should look at whether or not the school has impact players in the NBA. Duke has 3 low post guys currently in the pros, Boozer is doing well, you never hear about Brand anymore, and who knows where Williams is now. UNC had Rasheed, has an older Jamison, and Haywood is starting for the team with one of the best records in the league. Hansbrough and McRoberts are a wash. McRoberts is starting but TH's numbers are better despite less minutes. Ed Davis is doing OK for a rookie and Marvin Williams is doing OK as well.

My point is, while Duke has a slight edge right now in big name players in the NBA, year in and year out, UNC has more of an inside game as opposed to Duke in the ACC. That is what I think kids look at when they choose to go to a school. Sure, if Duke lands a 5* recruit, K will utilize him, but Duke hasn't had one in a few years. On the other hand, UNC has had tons of low post talent come through CH. Both Henson and Zeller will play in the NBA in the next few years. While UNC isn't putting out NBA all-star talent, they are getting guys to the league. A college cannot give a player an NBA all star capabilities, they can only recruit a player that already has them.

Now this is my point. UNC nor Duke can make a kid an NBA all-star. That is up to the kid. All players are not created equally. Boozer and Brand would have been great players regardless of where they went to school. The same goes for most collegiate athletes. Talent and skill level can be refined in college, but NBA drafts players based on their god given abilities. What UNC and Duke can do is run an offense that benefits the skill level of the kid. If you look at the last 5 or 6 years, UNC has an offense that goes inside and then out. Whether or not Duke has had inside talent in the past or not, if you look at the direction Duke appears to be going and you look at where they are now, its hard to debate this issue. Sure, you can point to the past and say look at what we have done, or you can look at what a team does every year.

So, you can call it a myth and you can point to the past as backup, but if you look at the here and now as well as look to the past, UNC has the better track record of having an inside presence to their offense and getting their bigs to the pros. What the kid does once he gets to the pros is up to him. Players like TP see themselves as a future pro and I would imagine they like watching a team that utilizes their bigs for something other than a screen.

Kong- What, got tired of getting beat up over this theme over on the "2012 Recruiting" thread and decided to bring it over to the post-game thread?? As was discussed at length on the 2012 recruiting string (see around post 783) there are any number of errors/mistakes in this IC-borne theory.

But let's first establish Tony Parker and his size and style of play. This kid is 6'8" (or 6'9") and about 260 pounds. Most writers seem to think he'll play at around 270 lbs in college. He is a classic, back-to-the-basket, low-post bull. He will eat up a lot of space in the paint, use his strength to bull his way to a ton of rebounds (has a very quick 2nd and 3rd jump) and second-chance points, but while he's not "slow" he likely won't ever be confused for a gazelle.

That description does not match well with any of the NC names you mentioned. It is, however, almost a word-for-word description of the starting PF for the 76ers, Elton Brand, from when he was coming out of High School in upstate NY. It is also at least a pretty decent description of NBA All-Star Carlos Boozer of the Bulls. I am not saying this to disparage any NC names you mention, as they are (mostly) good players in their own rights in the NBA - especially that high-character NC guy Rasheed Wallace (didn't he set a record for the most T's in the history of the NBA??) - but they are generally long, lanky guys who were more known for speed than for interior post, back-to-the basket rebounding strength/skills. Also, you name some NC players who are more likely NBA SF's than C's or really PF's. So if you want to count Henson, Zeller, Jamison (I personally like Jamison, playing at the streaking Cavs, but he is in no way a "back-to-the-backet, inside bull"), then on the Duke side you need to include Dunleavey, Grant Hill, Battier, Parks, etc -- guys who also play some interior, but don't focus there as well.

But my main point is this: Coach K is famous for (really enjoying to) totally changing his team's playing style from year-to-year to match/optimize the strengths of this year's players. (A very pertinent example is last year's team vs this year's team -- winning a NC with Scheyer at point and Zoubs in the middle he played a slow, half-court game - and quite well obviously -- but this year with Irving (and w/o Z) he went back to the run-and-gun of the Jason Williams years, again quite well.) Unfortunately, Duke has had a few recent close-misses for big, back-to-the-basket inside bruiser-type recruits, such as Greg Monroe (GT), Patrick Patterson (KY), Brockman (WA), so K adroitly plays the hand that recruiting has dealt him. But to suggest that Duke won't return to it's very successful inside-out days of Brand and Boozer if a talent like Tony Parker shows up on the scene, well that ius just ridiculous and flies in the face of the factual, historic evidence. And since the current NC style is not what I would call "true inside-out" offense - Williams' style ALWAYS centers around a speedy, penetrating, fast-break PG - for better (Lawson) or worse (Drew) - than going first to an interior bull along the lines of TP. I think that it is MUCH more relevant to ask which of these two coaches, or Calipari, or Hewitt, or others, is more likely to adapt best to match TP's strengths, and who has done so with players almost exactly like him in the past.

So, your argument is only valid if a coach is, like Williams, locked into a single, regimented playing style year after year. Frankly, I think JP is MUCH more likely to see a tailored, true inside-out power-player focused game plan with K than with any of these other coaches.

It really isn't even close.

BTW, I am still chuckling that after years and years of hearing dozens of NC fans (including MJ by the way) beat the drums to recruits (and on these boards) over NC having more players in the NBA and so, therefore, it "must" be preparing their players better for the league, the tune is suddenly reversed 180 degrees - "he'll be his own player" - now that Duke has more players there, and particularly more TP-style traditional PF's succeeding in the NBA. Also throw in the head coaches where one has never coached an NBA player a day in his life, while the other spends every summer coaching the very BEST big-men/PF's in the world -- Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Chris Bosch, Boozer, et al. I think it should be a pretty easy decision for Mr. Parker. ;-)

[kong123]

the problem is, not everyone is as big a Duke fan as you are. the problem is, not everyone sits around trying to validate Duke's ability to coach big men. so you can write long paragraphs telling everyone that this guy isn't well suited to play at UNC because of his size and skill set remind you of Brand and I would tell you that he wants to play at UNC because he see's an offense he would like to play in. When he looks at Duke and wants to see how he will fit in, he has to use a mirror so that he can look into the past. Sure, he can see K coach pros during the summer, but after that is over, he goes back to Duke and coaches his guards. You can say whatever you want to say, the only people who are drinking your kool-aid wear a black-out shade of blue glasses.

[kong123]

Funny you bring up Haywood. He's had one productive year in the NBA and it was his contract year. Since then he's gone back to being 6 fouls and a virtual non-factor. He's a bad example for your argument.

well, he has been in the league for 9 years and is making just under 7 million a year. if you are not impressed by his 6 pts and 7 reb a game for his entire career, then maybe that stat will wow you.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

well, he has been in the league for 9 years and is making just under 7 million a year. if you are not impressed by his 6 pts and 7 reb a game for his entire career, then maybe that stat will wow you.

You are just reiterating what he said. That Haywood had one good year which happened to be his contract year so he is being well-compensated even as his performance has declined.

[sagegrouse]

Euthanasia for the thread?

sagegrouse

[oldnavy]

the problem is, not everyone is as big a Duke fan as you are. the problem is, not everyone sits around trying to validate Duke's ability to coach big men. so you can write long paragraphs telling everyone that this guy isn't well suited to play at UNC because of his size and skill set remind you of Brand and I would tell you that he wants to play at UNC because he see's an offense he would like to play in. When he looks at Duke and wants to see how he will fit in, he has to use a mirror so that he can look into the past. Sure, he can see K coach pros during the summer, but after that is over, he goes back to Duke and coaches his guards. You can say whatever you want to say, the only people who are drinking your kool-aid wear a black-out shade of blue glasses.

Coach K “got” Shav Randolph to the NBA, ergo, he is the best big man coach of all time. End of argument.

[kong123]

point is, he maybe a role player, but he has had a long and prosperous career in the NBA. he may never be an all-star, but is that the only indication of a players to success in the NBA? If so, Duke has had almost no success in the NBA. Laettner, Hill, Brand, and Boozer are the only 4 guys that I can think of and only one of them was a perennial all-star.

[moonpie23]

well, he has been in the league for 9 years and is making just under 7 million a year. if you are not impressed by his 6 pts and 7 reb a game for his entire career, then maybe that stat will wow you.

there are TONS of over-paid players in the nba...no, that does NOT impress me...

let's look at what a recruit might look at with regard to current nba players .


Duke:

Battier *
Boozer *
Brand *
Deng *
Duhon
Dunleavy *
Henderson #
Hill *
Jones
Maggette *
McRoberts *
Redick #
williams #

13 total where * is a starter and # is a sometimes starter.

now, let's look at UNC.

Carter *
Davis
Ellington
Felton *
Hansbrough #
Jamison *
Lawson
Williams (J)
Williams (M)*
Wright

10 total 4 starters...


now, i know you keep coming back to what system a big man might like playing in, but there is NO FREAKING WAY that a nba bound recruit looks at UNC's list and then looks at DUke's list PLUS the international success of Coach K and says to himself, "yeah, unc definitely delivers more on the NBA level...."

let's be honest...the myth that duke (and by extension K ) doesn't produce on the next level is just that....a myth....and holes need desperately to perpetuate that...

[BD80]

I am not going to get into a fight but the facts need to be addressed.

Kedsy has answered you on Brand.

Re "TH's numbers are better,"... well. Josh has more minutes (23 to 17), rebounds (5.5 to 4.3), and assists (2.2 to an anemic 0.6). Tyler is scoring 7.9 vs. Josh's 7.1. In the NBA I place a lot of emphasis on who's on the court, and Josh is playing a lot of minutes.

sagegrouse

Who is playing first string and who is playing 2nd? There are scads of 2nd stringers who put up decent point/minute stats that can't do bupkis against 1st string players. TH is supposed to be a scoring machine, it is amusing that Kevin Love has become the player TH was supposed to be. Even funnier, TH is the ONLY player in history to find the NBA more restrctive than college in calling traveling.

The fact that the heels' all-time scoring leader and player of the year is even being compared to a supposed "failure" from Duke speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[oldnavy]

Who is playing first string and who is playing 2nd? There are scads of 2nd stringers who put up decent point/minute stats that can't do bupkis against 1st string players. TH is supposed to be a scoring machine, it is amusing that Kevin Love has become the player TH was supposed to be. Even funnier, TH is the ONLY player in history to find the NBA more restrctive than college in calling traveling.

The fact that the heels' all-time scoring leader and player of the year is even being compared to a supposed "failure" from Duke speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Ouch!! I wish I had said that! POTD!

[dcdrumsinc]

I'll take heat for this and that is fine, but...

if a low post recruit is looking at UNC and Duke, I am not sure he should look at whether or not the school has impact players in the NBA. Duke has 3 low post guys currently in the pros, Boozer is doing well, you never hear about Brand anymore, and who knows where Williams is now. UNC had Rasheed, has an older Jamison, and Haywood is starting for the team with one of the best records in the league. Hansbrough and McRoberts are a wash. McRoberts is starting but TH's numbers are better despite less minutes. Ed Davis is doing OK for a rookie and Marvin Williams is doing OK as well.

My point is, while Duke has a slight edge right now in big name players in the NBA, year in and year out, UNC has more of an inside game as opposed to Duke in the ACC. That is what I think kids look at when they choose to go to a school. Sure, if Duke lands a 5* recruit, K will utilize him, but Duke hasn't had one in a few years. On the other hand, UNC has had tons of low post talent come through CH. Both Henson and Zeller will play in the NBA in the next few years. While UNC isn't putting out NBA all-star talent, they are getting guys to the league. A college cannot give a player an NBA all star capabilities, they can only recruit a player that already has them.

Now this is my point. UNC nor Duke can make a kid an NBA all-star. That is up to the kid. All players are not created equally. Boozer and Brand would have been great players regardless of where they went to school. The same goes for most collegiate athletes. Talent and skill level can be refined in college, but NBA drafts players based on their god given abilities. What UNC and Duke can do is run an offense that benefits the skill level of the kid. If you look at the last 5 or 6 years, UNC has an offense that goes inside and then out. Whether or not Duke has had inside talent in the past or not, if you look at the direction Duke appears to be going and you look at where they are now, its hard to debate this issue. Sure, you can point to the past and say look at what we have done, or you can look at what a team does every year.

So, you can call it a myth and you can point to the past as backup, but if you look at the here and now as well as look to the past, UNC has the better track record of having an inside presence to their offense and getting their bigs to the pros. What the kid does once he gets to the pros is up to him. Players like TP see themselves as a future pro and I would imagine they like watching a team that utilizes their bigs for something other than a screen.

wow. Elton brand is a come back player of the year award candidate and is putting up 15 and 9. In 2006, he was an MVP candidate for a clipper team that was 1 win away from the western conference finals. not even rasheed as great of a player he was defensively and offensively in his prime, never led a team that far. He was always on really good to great teams. Jamison is has always been an underachieving stat padder on bad teams and a guy who couldnt make his teammates better or leading a team on his own. Ask most NBA GM's and boozer a legit 20 and 10 guy is on clear whole nother level from haywood or jamison. BTW. many of the GMs and analysts are saying boozer is an allstar this year.

[kong123]

[/B]

Ouch!! I wish I had said that! POTD!

JJ didn't prove to be much better his 1st two years.

[jipops]

well, he has been in the league for 9 years and is making just under 7 million a year. if you are not impressed by his 6 pts and 7 reb a game for his entire career, then maybe that stat will wow you.

I'm more wowed by the fact that he had one rebound in the Weber St loss.

[Kedsy]

Can you all please stop the bickering? You're not even responding to each other.

Kong is arguing about a perception. And he's right that there is a perception among fans that Duke doesn't develop big men as well as other programs. Do high school coaches and big time recruits buy into that perception? It would surprise me, but I have no inside information about that. The thing is, I'm fairly certain Kong doesn't either. Nor any of the rest of you.

The rest of you are arguing a reality. Or, more accurately, you're stringing together a bunch of facts and seem to believe you've molded a reality that puts Duke in the best possible light. Boiling down your arguments, you're more or less saying that Coach K is a good coach. But I'm pretty sure Tony Parker already knows that.

Fact is, you're all spouting nonsense (although not about Coach K being a good coach). If getting to the League is all a kid cares about, he won't be going to Duke or UNC. He'll be going to Kentucky, because that's the most widely held perception these days. If a big man is really only focusing on this season, perhaps reinforced by a smattering of memories from the four (but not five) seasons before that, then he'll probably be going to Ohio State. If you think a big recruit would be swayed by your long, drawn out arguments about which of McRoberts or Hansbrough contributes more to mediocre NBA team, or whether Haywood's career should positively or negatively impact the recruit's decision, then you're deluding yourself.

Bottom line, if Coach K sits down to eat dinner with you and tells you to your face that you'll be a focal point of the offense if you come to Duke, and you don't believe him (or think he's not capable of pulling it off), then you weren't even remotely serious about Duke to begin with. Is Parker serious about Duke? I have no idea. But I'm very confident that a few odd statements in a TDD interview and a couple of pro-UNC tweets aren't anywhere close to the last word on that subject.

[jipops]

the problem is, not everyone is as big a Duke fan as you are. the problem is, not everyone sits around trying to validate Duke's ability to coach big men. so you can write long paragraphs telling everyone that this guy isn't well suited to play at UNC because of his size and skill set remind you of Brand and I would tell you that he wants to play at UNC because he see's an offense he would like to play in. When he looks at Duke and wants to see how he will fit in, he has to use a mirror so that he can look into the past. Sure, he can see K coach pros during the summer, but after that is over, he goes back to Duke and coaches his guards. You can say whatever you want to say, the only people who are drinking your kool-aid wear a black-out shade of blue glasses.

You're not getting it man. Nobody is saying UNC is ill-suited. Who in their right mind could say that and back it up? Your mantra in this argument is that Duke's big men are only used to rebound and set screens. If you believe that to be true the only season of Duke ball you have watched is the 2009-10 season. Perhaps that is because you didn't want to watch your own guys play that year? Many teams don't run the same offense every season. Really, they don't.