The Kyrie Irving Toe Rehab Vigil

[kmspeaks]

Great point. I wonder if there's any way that the Duke fans who are already going to be in Charlotte for the game could actually accompany Kyrie to his doctor's appointment, thus giving us all the information we need to complete this thread?

I won't be in Charlotte but if somebody wants to give me a ticket I will gladly take on this most important duty.

[Indoor66]

Yes, I think so. This has been my best guess about the situation since Sunday's news of a possible return. I don't see Kyrie playing this weekend because Coach Collins made it very clear that Kyrie wouldn't play before he did full-speed practices with the team (someone provided a quote yesterday). Your line of thinking is on track. He gets cleared this weekend, practices at full speed all next week (gets some good conditioning in), and is ready to play if we get to the Sweet 16. I wish he could come back sooner, but I think this scenario is more likely.

Maybe he is on the run today! We will know about Friday on the 18th - without doubt.

[MulletMan]

I think the whole debate about whether Kyrie should play if he is medically cleared is very interesting. Last season John Wall could have sat out the second half of Kentucky's schedule and still been the #1 pick in the draft. Should he have done so to protect his "winning lottery ticket"? What about Harrison Barnes and Derrick Williams? Shouldn't they sit out the rest of the season?

That has never happened as far as I know. As long as the condition of Kyrie's toe puts him at no greater risk of injury than prior to December 4th, then he should play and it is up to Coach K and the medical staff, with input from Kyrie, to detemine how to re-intergrate him and manage his minutes/conditioning.

Those players had not had an injury that cost them several months of the season. The players' perspective may have been a bit different about the risks invovled had they sat on their butts for 3 months.

[CDu]

Those players had not had an injury that cost them several months of the season. The players' perspective may have been a bit different about the risks invovled had they sat on their butts for 3 months.

Agreed. Irving has now seen the potential fragility of being an elite basketball star. Wall and others didn't have a major injury to consider when deciding to continue to play.

I can't speak for whether or not Irving would/will or would/will not return for the tournament if cleared to play. I hope he would/will return. My (completely unsubstantiated) feeling is that he would/will. But I would completely understand if he elected not to do so.

Apparently, he hasn't yet been cleared to play, right? Last I heard, he'd been cleared for "basketball-related" activities, which is not the same as being cleared for elite-level basketball competition. So we first must get to that point before it even matters if he's going to return.

[davekay1971]

This is a general point, and not directed at any one poster.

I am absolutely fine with the speculation about whether or not Kyrie will make it back for some of the tournament, and, if so, how much. It's natural, and, I think, it comes from a genuine desire among all of us to see Kyrie back, see him healthy, see him doing well, and, of course, seeing what Duke can do with such a stellar talent back in uniform for this critical part of the season.

However, I would avoid any speculation as to what his thoughts and motivations are regarding that ultimate decision, however. Obviously it's always hazardous putting words into the mouths of others. Obviously this is a very important decision for the young man's long term health AND career. And obviously he has a lot of different factors, pressures, and people factoring into this decision.

The other factor that I haven't seen discussed much is that no one, even Dr. Anderson, has a great deal of experience with this particular injury in this kind of athlete.

I had a nice talk with an orthopaedic surgeon who knows what he's talking about with athletic injuries (no, not Dr. Anderson, nor anyone directly involved in Kyrie's care), and he gave me some insight into the situation. Dr. Anderson is about the number 1 foot specialist in the US, and he's seen this kind of injury often, but Kyrie's case is special because of the level of athlete he is, and the kind of movement and quickness and forces his particular game requires. I have no doubt that Kyrie, Coach K, Kyrie's father, etc, are all aware of unique combination that Kyrie's case presents. One of the reasons, probably the main reason, that K has been so vague is that everyone involved is taking this step by step and being appropriately cautious, because there isn't a simple, well established precedent for Kyrie's case.

So, if Kyrie is not seen in a Duke uniform again, it doesn't mean he is playing it safe for the draft, or more injured than we thought, or anything else that we can say conclusively. It just means the group that is making this decision with Kyrie has decided it's better for him to wait, and the time to possibly come back this season ran out.

[mr. synellinden]

Agreed. Irving has now seen the potential fragility of being an elite basketball star. Wall and others didn't have a major injury to consider when deciding to continue to play.

I can't speak for whether or not Irving would/will or would/will not return for the tournament if cleared to play. I hope he would/will return. My (completely unsubstantiated) feeling is that he would/will. But I would completely understand if he elected not to do so.

Apparently, he hasn't yet been cleared to play, right? Last I heard, he'd been cleared for "basketball-related" activities, which is not the same as being cleared for elite-level basketball competition. So we first must get to that point before it even matters if he's going to return.

Those players had not had an injury that cost them several months of the season. The players' perspective may have been a bit different about the risks invovled had they sat on their butts for 3 months.

I don't disagree with the facts, but I disagree with the logic of the implication. Every player knows that he/she is risking a career ending or debilitating injury every time they step foot on the court, whether it be practice or in a game. Kyrie has had injuries before, perhaps not as serious, but he knows injuries occur. So does every other player who is in line for a high draft pick/big pay day. Does that mean they shouldn't take a risk by stepping on the court - even for practice or workouts? If you want to take the logic to its extreme, then Kyrie should live in a bubble until he gets drafted, signs a long-term contract and signs his endorsement deal. Should Da'Sean Butler have skipped the NCAA tournament last year?

If Kyrie is fully healed and has been cleared medically to workout/practice/play, then how would him not playing in the NCAA be any different from John Wall deciding last year to skip the NCAAs to preserve his health and his #1 pick status/endorsement contract?

I'm not saying he would be wrong to do so. I'm only saying that it would be unprecedented in my opinion.

[ncexnyc]

I'm really sad to see so much energy being wasted on this discussion. We've got a great group of kids who definitely are going to be playing this weekend. Why aren't we focusing our attention on them?

I realize that Kyrie is an exceptional talent, but we've made it this far without him. Can't we just let the chips fall where they may? If he suits up count it as a bonus and if he doesn't then we thank him for a great 8 games and the wonderful support he his given his team throughout the season.

[Fish80]

I'm really sad to see so much energy being wasted on this discussion. We've got a great group of kids who definitely are going to be playing this weekend. Why aren't we focusing our attention on them?

I realize that Kyrie is an exceptional talent, but we've made it this far without him. Can't we just let the chips fall where they may? If he suits up count it as a bonus and if he doesn't then we thank him for a great 8 games and the wonderful support he his given his team throughout the season.

We're multi-tasking. Eating carrots. Using Kenpom's rankings to fill out my brackets (with a few notable exceptions). Reading the toe thread. And focusing on our great group of kids! It's all good.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Is it reasonable to believe that Duke wants him back by the time the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 rolls around? Is it reasonable to believe Kyrie wants to be back? I think the answer to both is yes. I don't believe the rehab would have been addressed in the manner in which it has if both parties did not anticipate a return. The same holds true with Nike and "the shoe". Are they going to develop a special shoe to prevent an addition injury if there isn't a reasonable potential for Kyrie to come back? They may, but it could have waited until early summer or later. I believe all signs point to reasonable possibility that he will return this year.

[Kewlswim]

I'm really sad to see so much energy being wasted on this discussion. We've got a great group of kids who definitely are going to be playing this weekend. Why aren't we focusing our attention on them?

I realize that Kyrie is an exceptional talent, but we've made it this far without him. Can't we just let the chips fall where they may? If he suits up count it as a bonus and if he doesn't then we thank him for a great 8 games and the wonderful support he his given his team throughout the season.

Hi,

I have a lot of energy and for the record am "wasting" just as much energy (if not more) on the rest of the team. By the way, and just asking, who gets to judge what constitutes "wasted" time on a fans bulletin board?

GO DUKE!

[crimsonandblue]

I don't disagree with the facts, but I disagree with the logic of the implication. Every player knows that he/she is risking a career ending or debilitating injury every time they step foot on the court, whether it be practice or in a game. Kyrie has had injuries before, perhaps not as serious, but he knows injuries occur. So does every other player who is in line for a high draft pick/big pay day. Does that mean they shouldn't take a risk by stepping on the court - even for practice or workouts? If you want to take the logic to its extreme, then Kyrie should live in a bubble until he gets drafted, signs a long-term contract and signs his endorsement deal. Should Da'Sean Butler have skipped the NCAA tournament last year?

If Kyrie is fully healed and has been cleared medically to workout/practice/play, then how would him not playing in the NCAA be any different from John Wall deciding last year to skip the NCAAs to preserve his health and his #1 pick status/endorsement contract?

I'm not saying he would be wrong to do so. I'm only saying that it would be unprecedented in my opinion.

Kids used to call this going straight to the pros. They're not entitled to pursue that option any more.

Kids who elected to sit instead of play for fear of injury would get crucified by the media, fans and team and it would be questioned by pro teams evaluating the player's desire. But there are occasionally, kids who leave for pro dollars, like former Gator Christian Drejer did midseason to return home to pay for play in Europe. He was widely bashed.

There's no easy way to pull the plug and save your rep. Not like knocking in gin...

And I hope Kyrie returns and plays well.

[moonpie23]

i try to put myself in KI's shoes (no pun intended) and it really is a complex situation...i mean...how long did he play high level BB before he got injured? A LONG TIME.. most of his life....ball games are still ball games...maybe the stage and the competition is bigger, but Kyrie was ballin HARD in high school...

shoot, he could injure his toe (read "paycheck") at the team workout AFTER he's selected and before he's signed...

his dad is in a tough place (i'm a dad and i'm trying to imagine advising and counseling my kid in a similar situation)...but can you hear Kyrie talking to his dad? "dad!! I WANT TO PLAY...PLEASE...I'll be REALLY CAREFUL!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!" ...or something along those lines...what would you say to YOUR kid?

if i can't see him have a stellar college career, i'd love to see him tear up the league...

[AZLA]

We're multi-tasking. Eating carrots. Using Kenpom's rankings to fill out my brackets (with a few notable exceptions). Reading the toe thread. And focusing on our great group of kids! It's all good.

This whole month is all about multi-tasking!

It's partly the reason why I had the office purchase a 25 inch HD monitor / TV with HDMI hookup!

[WVDUKEFAN]

Do you guys recall what happened to William Avery when he left Duke and went to the NBA? Not much. It's been some time since I saw him play, but I'm thinking the two are very comperable. I'm fairly certain Avery left as a Sophomore. I watched every televised game KI played in this year, and he is good, but I don't think he's any better than Avery was when he was a Freshman. KI is great and there is no doubt about it, but I'm not so sure he should leave just yet.

[94duke]

Do you guys recall what happened to William Avery when he left Duke and went to the NBA? Not much. It's been some time since I saw him play, but I'm thinking the two are very comperable. I'm fairly certain Avery left as a Sophomore. I watched every televised game KI played in this year, and he is good, but I don't think he's any better than Avery was when he was a Freshman. KI is great and there is no doubt about it, but I'm not so sure he should leave just yet.

Here is a little memory refresher:

Player (yr)	pts/g	a/g
Avery (Fr)	8.5	2.5
Avery (So)	14.9	5.0
Irving (Fr)	17.4	5.1

[mr. synellinden]

Do you guys recall what happened to William Avery when he left Duke and went to the NBA? Not much. It's been some time since I saw him play, but I'm thinking the two are very comperable. I'm fairly certain Avery left as a Sophomore. I watched every televised game KI played in this year, and he is good, but I don't think he's any better than Avery was when he was a Freshman. KI is great and there is no doubt about it, but I'm not so sure he should leave just yet.

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Avery was a very good guard, and I still think he might have made it in the NBA if he'd stayed another year or two at Duke. But he was not as talented as Irving showed in 8 games, and it's not close.

[Matches]

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Avery was a very good guard, and I still think he might have made it in the NBA if he'd stayed another year or two at Duke. But he was not as talented as Irving showed in 8 games, and it's not close.

Agreed. No comparison, esp. if we're talking about Avery as a freshman.

[Kedsy]

Do you guys recall what happened to William Avery when he left Duke and went to the NBA? Not much. It's been some time since I saw him play, but I'm thinking the two are very comperable. I'm fairly certain Avery left as a Sophomore. I watched every televised game KI played in this year, and he is good, but I don't think he's any better than Avery was when he was a Freshman. KI is great and there is no doubt about it, but I'm not so sure he should leave just yet.

Avery wasn't ready and pretty much everyone except possibly Will and his mother knew it. He was drafted 14th, which is approximately where he was projected. On the other side, assuming Kyrie heals from his injury, pretty much everybody believes he's ready. He is projected as a top 3 pick, which is a universe away from being projected as a top 15 pick, as Avery was. There really isn't any reasonable comparison at all, from an NBA viewpoint.

And from a college viewpoint, Kyrie's play in his first 8 games was way better then Avery's freshman season (or sophomore season for that matter), and it isn't close, whether you use statistics or the eye test. Avery didn't even start his freshman year.

[CDu]

Do you guys recall what happened to William Avery when he left Duke and went to the NBA? Not much. It's been some time since I saw him play, but I'm thinking the two are very comperable. I'm fairly certain Avery left as a Sophomore. I watched every televised game KI played in this year, and he is good, but I don't think he's any better than Avery was when he was a Freshman. KI is great and there is no doubt about it, but I'm not so sure he should leave just yet.

Yeah, I'm going to echo the comments of others in saying that the Avery/Irving comparison isn't strong. Avery was a very good reserve as a freshman, but not an All-ACC caliber player (yet). Avery as a sophomore was all-ACC caliber and a great lead guard. Irving was, from day one as a freshman, a better player than Avery was as a sophomore. He was potentially headed toward All-American status as a freshman. Avery wasn't, even as a sophomore.

[dukebluesincebirth]

I think we'll all know much more about this situation Friday, just gonna have to play the waiting game til then. Someone already posted earlier today that he would report live to us from Duke's team practice session on Friday. If Kyrie isn't part of that, we know we won't see him this weekend. If he IS clearly part of the full team, full-speed practice on Friday, well then... IT'S ON!

I personally think we will either see him in the Sweet 16 (if we are fortunate enough to make it) round or not at all. I hope I'm wrong.