Student Ejected from VA Game

[wandalee]

During a timeout in the 2nd half of the VA game, 1 of the refs had the officials escort a Duke student from the game. Anyone have any details? I never saw the kid do anything outrageous.

[PallasAthena]

Joe Ovies' blog on WRAL says that the student ejected had been cursing at a ref, as in "__________."

I did see a ref at the 15:xx time-out approach yellow-shirted security guy and security guy in a suit and ask to have someone removed. It took the crack security team a few tries to find the right kid. Ovies' blog said those remaining in the section (near the lovely young lady in the dramatic Duke-blue dress) got a lecture afterward about language.

[Duvall]

Joe Ovies' blog on WRAL says that the student ejected had been cursing at a ref, as in "__________."

I did see a ref at the 15:xx time-out approach yellow-shirted security guy and security guy in a suit and ask to have someone removed. It took the crack security team a few tries to find the right kid. Ovies' blog said those remaining in the section (near the lovely young lady in the dramatic Duke-blue dress) got a lecture afterward about language.

In his defense, Jamie Luckie really does [EXPLETIVE DELETED]ing [EXPLETIVE DELECTED].

[Jarhead]

It appears that we need to bring up Uncle Terry's Avuncular Letter one more time. I can't find my copy, so a little help, please.

[PallasAthena]

AN AVUNCULAR LETTER
January 17, 1984
To My Duke Students:

The enthusiasm of Duke students in Cameron Indoor Stadium during basketball games is legendary, especially at ACC games. That’s great! It is as if we had a sixth man (maybe seventh, eighth, or tenth sometimes) playing on the floor.

But hold a minute — I have a reservation about all that. There is a recognizable line between enthusiasm and cheapness.

It is generally assumed that a person resorting in conversation to profanity and obscenities is short of an adequate vocabulary. That is doubly true in public utterances.

Resorting to the use of obscenities in cheers and chants at ball games indicates a lack of vocabulary, a lack of cleverness, a lack of ideas, a lack of class, and a lack of respect for other people. We are, I am sorry to report, gaining an unequaled reputation as a student body that doesn’t have a touch of class.

I don’t think we need to be crude and obscene to be effectively enthusiastic. We can cheer and taunt with style; that should be the Duke trademark. Crudeness, profanity, and cheapness should not be our reputation — but it is.

I suggest that we change. Talk this matter over in your various residential houses. Think of something clever but clean, devastating but decent, mean but wholesome, witty and forceful but G-rated for television, and try it at the next game.

We have too much going for us as an outstanding university to tolerate the reputation we now have for being so crude and inarticulate that we must resort to profanity and obscenities at ball games.

I hope you will discipline yourselves and your fellow students. This request is in keeping with my commitment to self-government for students. It should not be up to me to enforce proper behavior that signifies the intelligence of Duke students. You should do it. Reprove those who make us all look bad. Shape up your own language.
I hate for us to have the reputation of being stupid.

With best wishes.

Uncle Terry

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/51538

[Jarhead]

Thanks, PallasAthena. Tomorrow, that letter will have guided Duke fandom for 27 years. The Crazies need to take it to heart.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Joe Ovies' blog on WRAL says that the student ejected had been cursing at a ref, as in "__________."

I did see a ref at the 15:xx time-out approach yellow-shirted security guy and security guy in a suit and ask to have someone removed. It took the crack security team a few tries to find the right kid. Ovies' blog said those remaining in the section (near the lovely young lady in the dramatic Duke-blue dress) got a lecture afterward about language.

Let me just say that the student wasn't the only one. It took MAXIMUM RESTRAINT to not let go a whole string of them in the second half. First Josh Hairston get's pushed to the floor in front of the band with no foul called on UVA (well he's a frosh and won't get the calls) but a minute later the same thing happens to Kyle Singler and HE, the senior AA at home doesn't get the call. No, the refs were very poor yesterday.

[Devilsfan]

I find it extremely disturbing that refs don't object to profanity when it's directed at players like at the Comcast Center but when it's directed at their possible incompetence it's an ejectable offence. I don't think Duke students should stoop to the classless behavior of Maryland students and the like but I think the ACC should stop being so whimpy.

[rthomas]

Was the letter from Sanford before or after the shoe incident (NC State) and the record album incident (Virginia)?

[dukeimac]

I find it extremely disturbing that refs don't object to profanity when it's directed at players like at the Comcast Center but when it's directed at their possible incompetence it's an ejectable offence.

To make such as statement has to imply these were the same 3 refs at the Comcast Center, and I would bet they were not. I find it interesting how people want to compare apples to oranges. Also, remember everyone is human, I don't care who they are or what the roles are, a human is a human. If you think they should take whatever is said to them while they are working, let me come to your place of employment and yell some things at you. I would be interested to see if you keep your composure.

Also, just because someone else does it, doesn't make it right. If the fans at Comcast are low life's, do you really want to use their actions as your defense for your actions?

If the Duke fans want to be treated as class acts, then act with class. To hear a Duke student did such as thing tells me I might need to rethink my belief that Duke fans are class acts. IF the Duke fans want to set a class act example, the next time such a thing is happens, they should escort the fan out the doors.

[El_Diablo]

Luckie is horrible. At least he received an extended "Tattletale! Tattletale!" chant afterwards.

[PallasAthena]

"Tattletale! Tattletale!"

THAT is the kind of great stuff the Crazies can and do come up with! I loved it.

[El_Diablo]

To make such as statement has to imply these were the same 3 refs at the Comcast Center, and I would bet they were not. I find it interesting how people want to compare apples to oranges.

Um, not really. It could also imply that they operate under the same rules and work for the same employers, and are thus expected to uphold standards consistently.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Um, not really. It could also imply that they operate under the same rules and work for the same employers, and are thus expected to uphold standards consistently.

You expect consistency from venue to venue? We can't get consistency from one end of the court to the other on consecutive plays!

[SCMatt33]

I find it extremely disturbing that refs don't object to profanity when it's directed at players like at the Comcast Center but when it's directed at their possible incompetence it's an ejectable offence. I don't think Duke students should stoop to the classless behavior of Maryland students and the like but I think the ACC should stop being so whimpy.

The interpretation of the rules can be pretty sketchy when it comes to profane language.

Team followers, as in Rule 4-27, shall not commit an unsportsmanlike
act, including, but not limited to, the following:

a. Using musical instruments, amplified music or artificial noisemakers
while the game is in progress, except timeouts and intermission.
b. Using laser pointers.
c. Throwing debris on the court after officials’ jurisdiction has begun.
d. Delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly made
live or by preventing continuous play, such as but not limited to,
followers entering the playing court before the player activity has
been terminated. When the delay does not interfere with play, it shall
be ignored.
e. Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar or obscene.
Note 1: Before penalizing a follower(s) of a team for violating Rule
10-2.9, the officials shall have knowledge as to which team’s
follower(s) committed the act.
Note 2: When the misconduct of the follower(s) is extreme or excessive,
such behavior may be penalized by the official requesting home/
contest management to eject from the premises the team follower(s)
involved in the misbehavior. In such a case, a technical foul shall
not be assessed.
PENALTY: Two free throws awarded to the offended team. The
ball shall be put back in play at the point of interruption.

Bench personnel committing an unsportsmanlike act including, but
not limited to, the following:
a. Disrespectfully addressing an official.
b. Attempting to influence an official’s decision.
c. Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar or obscene.
d. Taunting or baiting an opponent.
e. Objecting to an official’s decision by rising from the bench or using
gestures.
f. Inciting undesirable crowd reactions.
g. Fighting by bench personnel as in Rule 4-26.
PENALTY: Two free throws shall be awarded to the offended team.
No free throws shall be awarded for double or offsetting
technical fouls. Counts toward the team-foul total. Applies
toward disqualification and ejection except for Art. 2.g,
which is non-applicable toward disqualification since it
leads to automatic ejection.
Since the head coach is responsible for the conduct and
behavior of all bench personnel, when a CLASS A technical
foul (Art.2.a through g) is assessed to an offender, it shall
also be charged to the head coach as a CLASS B technical
foul.

I wanted to point out the similarities between rules regarding bench personnel and "followers" which in another part of the rule book is defined as fans, band members, cheerleaders, and mascots of a team. The two notes in italics are very important. When dealing with followers, an ejection can be used in place of a technical foul. I don't know the specifics of what happened at the game yesterday, but based on what I read, the official could have given the fan a technical foul instead of an ejection. Also note that the wording of the penalty is the same for both bench personnel and followers. Basically, any inappropriate language, regardless of who it is directed at or in what context it was said, is a violation of the rules. If the refs were to call fouls on Maryland fans for chanting "F you," they would also have to call fouls on Coach K for every F bomb, even if it was inside a huddle directed at a players out of frustration. Note 1 for followers is also important as the ref must be able to identify the offender(s). If there is a stadium wide chant, can you really say for sure that there isn't also an opposing fan using inappropriate language. Ejecting an entire stadium is simply not practical and calling technical fouls on fans allows people who have no direct relationship to the team to have an impact on the game and also brings in the possibility of opposing fans disguising themselves to try and get technical fouls called on themselves. I would imagine that it the refs only do something when it is directed at them because those are usually the instances where they are looking at the offender and can specifically identify him/her. You have to be careful what you wish for. If the refs started being "less wimpy" and followed the letter of the law, you'd see a ridiculous number of technical fouls and ejections. Do you think that chanting "Hi _____, you suck!" during UNC intros is not abusive language? Is thrusting and grunting as a free throw distraction not unsportsmanlike conduct? The rules as written do not provide for degree, so it would require the same penalty as cursing. Look at what is happening in the NBA with the new emphasis on protesting calls. It just takes away from the game. Does that mean that any of it is right? Absolutely not, but calling fouls on fans all the time would not improve the game.

[El_Diablo]

You expect consistency from venue to venue? We can't get consistency from one end of the court to the other on consecutive plays!

No, it was a special type of consistency there. The refs were consistently wrong.

But seriously, I get where Devilsfan is coming from. And SCMatt, I wouldn't mind seeing the refs issue Maryland a warning and then starting T-ing up the team for the coordinated chants of "F--- you [insert name]!" In that case, it's fairly easy to see what team they represent, and it would end it pretty quickly. As for isolated fans who might be disguising themselves or something, refs can simply eject them, as happened yesterday.

[4decadedukie]

I saw the student walked out by CIS Security (directly in front of my row four bleacher seat), but I did not see or hear any violation, which does NOT suggest that none occurred. With this said, I observed quite a few blatently awful calls by the refs. I certainly do not condone profanity or incivility especially focued at officials, however, I can understand the frustration of an undergraduate-age fan during yesterday's game. I only hope to ACC's referees won't punish Duke for a few games to reinforce the need for appropriate comportment.

[Bluedog]

It's a lot easier to eject a single offender than to punish an entire student body. Also, students are a lot closer to the action and referees at Cameron than basically any other venue so refs can see and hear what is said to them and by whom a lot easier. So to me this doesn't suggest that it's a widespread use of profanity by the student body but rather a few outliers. We're definitely not even close to Maryland level but have to display more discretion due to the proximity of the students to the refs.

[davekay1971]

It's a lot easier to eject a single offender than to punish an entire student body. Also, students are a lot closer to the action and referees at Cameron than basically any other venue so refs can see and hear what is said to them and by whom a lot easier. So to me this doesn't suggest that it's a widespread use of profanity by the student body but rather a few outliers. We're definitely not even close to Maryland level but have to display more discretion due to the proximity of the students to the refs.

It's actually quite easy to punish the entire student body, and it's a rule that the ACC should enact. Simply empower the refs to assess the home team with a technical foul if there is excessive vulgarity from the fans. Almost all ACC league games are televised, and parents want to share ACC basketball with their kids. As Maryland has shown, you simply can't rely on individual schools or coaches to discourage vulgar behavior by the fans. The refs giving the opposition 2 shots and the ball, however, might minimize the prevalence of "F U [insert player nname]" and "bullhockey" cheers. It would at least induce guys like Gary Williams to pick up the mic and ask their fans to stop that crap.

[SCMatt33]

It's actually quite easy to punish the entire student body, and it's a rule that the ACC should enact. Simply empower the refs to assess the home team with a technical foul if there is excessive vulgarity from the fans. Almost all ACC league games are televised, and parents want to share ACC basketball with their kids. As Maryland has shown, you simply can't rely on individual schools or coaches to discourage vulgar behavior by the fans. The refs giving the opposition 2 shots and the ball, however, might minimize the prevalence of "F U [insert player nname]" and "bullhockey" cheers. It would at least induce guys like Gary Williams to pick up the mic and ask their fans to stop that crap.

It would be, because the rules are already in place by the NCAA. The problem is, is that as written, if you punished Maryland fans for saying "F you _____," you would also have to punish Duke fans for saying "Hi ______, you suck!" during UNC, and for grunting and thrusting as a free throw distraction as both are abusive or vulgar. They don't draw a line (nor should they) between the F-word, and other forms of abusive and vulgar actions. Could you get rid of it by punishing fans? Probably, though it would take a long time to completely get rid of it, but I honestly don't want the game on the court affected by actions of fans in the stands who have no official relationship to the basketball program at a school. It would be entirely arbitrary what gets called, and which officials take what remarks seriously. Can you imagine if there was a game where a team gets called for a late foul in a close game, and a group of 30-50 fans start chanting something borderline inappropriate. The ref calls a technical on top which allows the game to be put out of reach. Unless you specifically enumerate and limit the rule to specific words (which would be tough since fans would likely just use rhyming words to replace them) and come up with strict guidelines with the number of fans required to trigger a foul, you can end up with a game that is decided by a ref making a judgment call on a small number of fans. It's not exactly "easy" to implement a rule where the only new thing punished compared to now is Maryland fans chanting "F you."