Why can't we have a 9 man rotation?

[tele]

Although I hate to contribute to yet another discussion on minutes, I'll add my $.02. The only thing that bothered me about the Miami game was that Nolan and Kyle went the full 40 minutes. I understand that K is going to play his best players a lot of minutes against really good teams (Miami?). At the same time I've often felt that even a couple of minutes on the bench can help a player not just catch his breath (which may not even be necessary) but to get a different feel or perspective for what's going on real time on the court. It can be a mental break too. Sometimes this can jumpstart a player to finishing a game strong. Of course a good charging call and help with that too :-)

Happy New Year everyone!

Happy New year to you too, and DBR Duke fans everywhere!!

Also, I agree about the 40 minutes a game question too. I doubt Coach K would be playing Kyle and Nolan a full forty if Kyrie hadn't been injured. They weren't playing forty minutes before the injury, and they didn't play that many minutes all of last season? Also, if Coach K has to compensate for playing Nolan and Kyle that many minutes by changing practices, then I would humbly submit that this is no small change (this is a Coach who has saved every one of his practice plans). Not only does it affect how those two players practice but it also affects their younger teammates who might benefit from a more normal practice regime for their development.

I agree that a couple of minutes rest here and there can help a player, especially in a close game. It might not show up in summary stats but it might show in a reach foul here or a block call instead of a charge there, or a short jumper. I can remember Coach K trying to get key players a little extra rest by substituting for them just before or after tv timeouts, so they'd get a little longer break. Although as I recall this was done in close games, and maybe you don't need to do this so much when you are up by a dozen or so.

That said, I don't think Kyle and Nolan playing 40 minutes in the Miami game is something to worry about. My guess is that Duke probably would have still won that game if they'd sat for a couple of minutes. That is why I find it interesting that Coach K played them the full forty minutes. Perhaps this was done in part to help develop the team, absent Kyrie, and get the other 5 players who played more experience in game situations with the full "white" team for the tough conference games ahead.

[mkirsh]

Wouldn't worry about the bench too much, Coach K normally runs a very tight rotation for the first ACC game. The 54 minutes from the bench against Miami was more than our 21 point win over Clemson in 2009 (35), the same as our 25 point win over over Va Tech in 2008 (54), similar to our 2 point loss to Va Tech in 2006 (57, but with 25 extra overtime minutes available), more than our 18 point win over Wake in 2005 (47). The only outlier in the past 5 years was 74 bench minutes in a 22 point win over UVA in 2007, with Jon Scheyer getting 27 of those of the bench.

If the argument is not about starters minutes but about player development, you can argue a 7 man rotation with 2 subs getting 27 minutes each is a much shorter bench than going 10 deep with 2 subs getting 20 each and 3 subs getting 4 each, but I'm not sure that 4 minutes is enough to 1) make much contribution, or 2) get much true "game experience" but I recognize it as a debatable point.

[dukeimac]

Yup, I'm just as concerned as all of you. I can't understand why this coach does not take into consideration just how important this teams player rotation is to its fan base. I just don't understand what he could possibly be thinking of. After all, those of us who know better know this from experience. I'm sure you are all like me, we've coached our 6th graders basketball team to the city title and we should know exactly what it takes to win it all and how to manage a team and this coach acts like he has no clue. Maybe Duke should implement a rule that every player gets equal time.

Some day, I hope those who raise such concerns or questions like this become supervisors and you have some staffer questioning every decision you make. Making your life hell. And when you turn to this young person and say to them "you have no clue, you don't know what your talking about, there are things to consider that you don't know about," I hope you sit back in that comfortable chair and say to yourself, "maybe I didn't know what Coach K knew!"

In Coach K I trust, not some person who hasn't even run a middle school program!

[OldPhiKap]

Yup, I'm just as concerned as all of you. I can't understand why this coach does not take into consideration just how important this teams player rotation is to its fan base. I just don't understand what he could possibly be thinking of. After all, those of us who know better know this from experience. I'm sure you are all like me, we've coached our 6th graders basketball team to the city title and we should know exactly what it takes to win it all and how to manage a team and this coach acts like he has no clue. Maybe Duke should implement a rule that every player gets equal time.

Some day, I hope those who raise such concerns or questions like this become supervisors and you have some staffer questioning every decision you make. Making your life hell. And when you turn to this young person and say to them "you have no clue, you don't know what your talking about, there are things to consider that you don't know about," I hope you sit back in that comfortable chair and say to yourself, "maybe I didn't know what Coach K knew!"

In Coach K I trust, not some person who hasn't even run a middle school program!

Are you kidding?!? This so-called "Coach K" has only won 801 games.

Get back to me when he does something worthwhile, like passing Knight.

Until then, I'm not convinced.

[Bob Green]

In this ACC Sports Journal audio interview, linked on the front page of DBR, Dave Glenn ask Chris Collins about the short rotation against Miami. Collins replies [paraphrasing], the staff is confident all nine scholarship players can contribute and they will play in future games. Against Miami Nolan Smith was on a roll so they didn't want to remove him from the game and Kyle is a player who has demonstrated throughout his career he is capable of playing heavy minutes. The staff substitutes by feel and never goes into a game saying they are only going to play seven players or they definitely going to play nine players, etc.

The audio clip is 12 minutes long and is a good listen so I recommend it to anyone interested in this topic.

[Stratrat]

Yup, I'm just as concerned as all of you. I can't understand why this coach does not take into consideration just how important this teams player rotation is to its fan base. I just don't understand what he could possibly be thinking of. After all, those of us who know better know this from experience. I'm sure you are all like me, we've coached our 6th graders basketball team to the city title and we should know exactly what it takes to win it all and how to manage a team and this coach acts like he has no clue. Maybe Duke should implement a rule that every player gets equal time.

Some day, I hope those who raise such concerns or questions like this become supervisors and you have some staffer questioning every decision you make. Making your life hell. And when you turn to this young person and say to them "you have no clue, you don't know what your talking about, there are things to consider that you don't know about," I hope you sit back in that comfortable chair and say to yourself, "maybe I didn't know what Coach K knew!"

In Coach K I trust, not some person who hasn't even run a middle school program!

Easy now - we are all on the same team. I've been a Duke fanatic for an embarassingly long time. ( ever heard of Jay Buckley or Hack Tyson? ) I was speaking out loud and plainly said I didn't understand. My comments generated some cohesive thoughts that were great to read. Coach Collin's remarks after the game pulled this thought process all together.
I certainly watched Coach work a masterpiece last year as did we all. I also watched JJ crash and burn twice so I was just sayin. Just think tanking some thoughts amongst us Duke fans for our own edification and/ or thought processes.
Kind of hateful and silly to believe that these thoughts were meant for Coach K to ponder and reconsider his position. Hehe - come on man.
However - I am available to debate the merits of a deep bench that has been developed all year and is ready for the big end game versus a 7 man rotation.

[dukeballboy88]

Sigh.
Stay calm, Jason... Deep breaths...

Can I ask what there is about Kyle's history that would lead you to say that? Are you aware that Kyle played 38+ minutes in 6 of our final 8 games last year and he was as good a shooter during those games as he has been at any point in his career.

Kyle has had worse shooting nights than this earlier this year. For example, he went 3-11 against Miami (OH) and 5-16 versus Colgate. He played less than 30 minutes in each of those games. Perhaps there is no correlation whatsoever between minutes played and shooting percentages (especially early in the season when games are spaced out a lot).

And your comment about him playing "the 4" puzzles me too. MP1, MP2, and RK played 73 total minutes against Miami, leaving Kyle to play 17 minutes of the game "at the 4." IIRC, Duke was in a slow-down, delay kind of mode in the final 5 minutes of the game and had Kyle at the 4 to get an extra ballhandler/FT shooter on the floor. His minutes at the 4 were somewhat inflated by that. If anything, the loss of Kyrie has lessened the need to play Kyle at the 4 (as if Duke even has numbered positions) as it has opened more minutes for Seth and Andre.

Just interested in hearing you defend your comment with stats and/or defensible observations.

--Jason "FYI-- Coach K said in his post-game newser that playing 40 minutes was no big deal for Kyle and Nolan-- what matters in how hard they practice between games and K is aware of how to control that" Evans

This line up, Nolan, Seth, Andre, Kyle and a big man will make Kyle play power forward by default. Kyle came back to school to up his draft stock and he will not play 1 second at power forward in the NBA.

I never said Kyle couldnt do it but you cant tell me that you can play 40 minutes of pressure D that K demands and not be tired, thus effecting your shot. And playing the power forward position, going against bigger and stronger guys in the paint will take its toll on a player even as great as Kyle. Im not even talking about what we have seen so far, Im looking forward.

Id rather see 2 bigs in MP1, MP2 or Ryan and develope a low post threat that can get you 10 to 15 a night. An inside presence will only get us open looks from the perimeter and that means trouble, even more trouble than teams are already in. Hey, you got your opinion I got mine.

Sometimes I get hype and play CouchCoach and throw my .02 in. With that being said, I will ride or Die with whatever K does because he is the greatest coach ever at any sport.

GOD Bless America and The DBR!

[gep]

I think it was 2000-2001 or so... Shane played most of every game, and said something to the effect that Coach K said that they play 4-minute games, with the relatively long TV timeout. That, plus the regular timeouts, and half-time. I always thought that kinda made sense, but then I think JJ apparently getting tired towards the end of seasons made me think about this a bit. Is it possible that JJ, as the example of tired legs, is more pronounced since his was really a long jumper kind of player. I know he developed a drive in his senior season, but he was still a primary long jump shooter. Shane also had a good long jump shot, but played all over the place too... kinda like Kyle. And, I thought that supposedly "bigs" get tired much faster than "small guard" types. So maybe Nolan will be fine with big minutes...

In any case, I think last year kinda showed that a few players (Kyle, Nolan, Jon) playing big minutes (about 36 minutes per game each) can work. If it takes Duke to a NC, so be it, huh?

[Kedsy]

I think your gona see more shooting nights like the miami game from Kyle if he has to play 40 minutes and alot of minutes at the 4 position.

Kyle only played the "4" for 7 minutes against Miami. Do you consider that a lot?

In the five games since Kyrie has been out, he has played the "4" for 5, 3, 8, 5, and 7 minutes, an average of 5.6 minutes a game.

This line up, Nolan, Seth, Andre, Kyle and a big man will make Kyle play power forward by default.

But that lineup hardly plays, so I don't get your point.

ALL lineups with Kyle at the "4" have averaged 5.6 minutes a game since Kyrie has been out. It's a matter of fact: Kyle has NOT been playing "alot of minutes at the 4 position." Why are you arguing otherwise?

[dukeimac]

Easy now - we are all on the same team. I've been a Duke fanatic for an embarassingly long time. ( ever heard of Jay Buckley or Hack Tyson? ) I was speaking out loud and plainly said I didn't understand. My comments generated some cohesive thoughts that were great to read. Coach Collin's remarks after the game pulled this thought process all together.
I certainly watched Coach work a masterpiece last year as did we all. I also watched JJ crash and burn twice so I was just sayin. Just think tanking some thoughts amongst us Duke fans for our own edification and/ or thought processes.
Kind of hateful and silly to believe that these thoughts were meant for Coach K to ponder and reconsider his position. Hehe - come on man.
However - I am available to debate the merits of a deep bench that has been developed all year and is ready for the big end game versus a 7 man rotation.

Personally, I don't think anyone should ever question what ANYBODY (coach, supervisor, etc.) does unless you have been there and done that. If anything, ask what one considers when playing a person or what others might know about why someone isn't getting the playing time, never question the coaches decision.

From where I sit, Tyler and Josh are way out of their league. the ACC is going to eat them up. They are the classic ACC freshman, they are not ready for quality playing time in the ACC. Having read Coach K's books and almost all the articles he has written and listen to a lot of his press conferences I know, and see, that Tyler and Josh are showing classic freshmanitis and will not see much conference playing time. That might change, if they come to practice and go hard even though they won't get much playing time. And then when they do get the playing time they need to play without the wide eyes and making mistakes. Knowing Coach K, they can't make one mistake in the first 10 seconds on the court, two within the first minute. He believes they are sitting on the bench and need to listen and watch and learn so when they go in they know what to do. I've seen him put a player in and within 10 second remove the guy and you can trace it back to a mistake they made once the got onto the court.


I graduated college in 1989, all but the first 3 of the years after graduation I've been a supervisor. I've seen good supervisors come and go because some staffer questioned the decisions they made. The staffer never had all the information needed to make the decision but they acted and talked like they knew what was best. The supervisors are gone, not because they didn't make good business decisions it was because they made bad staff decisions, letting someone under mind them. As a supervisor / manager, I never let that happen. I confront the staffer right away. To-date, knock on wood, everyone had to turn around, cowardly, and walk away because the fact is they never know all the facts to make the decision I made.

I had an employee who was late for work everyday, about 15 minutes. A hard worker and a real productive person. I had another employee who was a good worker. A spot opened up for a promotion. The good worker was concerned I might promote this other worker so the good worker started to bad mouth the late worker and me. I did promote the late worker. Here is what the good worker didn't know. First, the late worker was twice as productive than any other worker, the numbers proved it! The late worker was late because he was helping his mother with her medication, she is suffering from MS. The late worker worked about 30 minutes late every day, without pay. The good worker never stuck around to find this out. He just bad mouthed the fact that things pointed to me promoting the late worker. He good worker became a bad worker because he was talking behind my back. I put him in his place. Once he got all the facts, twice a productive, worked for twice the time he was late, for nothing. Once the good worker understood what I knew he had to apologize about me to every worker he bad mouthed about me, and that was a lot, it took him a while. But today, the good worker, is trying to be as productive as the late worker. Oh, and I gave the late worker the permission to be late once I met his mother.

People can ask questions but not in the tone of questioning any decision Coach K makes. Until you have coached a team to just one championship, at least high school level, you've never been there or done that and thus one has no clue with what he knows to make the decisions he makes. Just how happy would you be if in 2 minutes Tyler or Josh made two mistakes and cost Duke the UNC or Maryland game? But remember they played all in the idea of fans wanting Coach to play 9 guys. Not happy I'm sure and I believe Coach K won't put them into that situation.

In Coach K I trust, he has EARNED everyones trust.

[dukeballboy88]

Im from a lil town in Rockingham county and eversince I was able to hold a pencil/pen the town holds a huge march madness pool with a big prize to the winner. Whoever wins it walks around with a chip on their shoulder for a whole year. I play 4 sheets and ever since 1986 ive picked Duke to win it all every year on every sheet except 95 and that year I didnt play. I ride or die with K and K only and if K dont win it I dont want it. I never question K just offer things I would like to see but most importantly, I like to see W's!lol

After W's, Id like to see Kyle be a stud at the 3 on the NBA level.

Id like to see us go 9 deep giving some key players early rest so they can be fresh for the entire 2nd half.

Also, Id like to see why NBAdraft.net and Draftexpress.com have Mason going in the lottery.

[Neals384]

One personal every five minutes isn't that bad, is it? I mean, that is 25 minutes of time before he fouls out, and he would NEVER get that much time.

I don't think Tyler will get a ton of floor time, but given the quality of our guards, that is not too crazy... he is not going to get minutes over Nolan, Seth, or Dre right now.

I do think Josh could be a little useful... he is not as big as many ACC "4s" but he does have good hands and has a nice "feel" for the game, it seems... I would like to see what he could do in a lineup with Nolan, Dre, Kyle, Josh, and Miles/Mason/Ryan.

Well, nobody's worried about Josh fouling out, but the rate of fouls against lesser competition is an indicator that his defense is not where it needs to be for ACC play.

He's an aggressive player and he will be an asset on defense once he learns how to bang inside without getting picked on by the refs.

[ice-9]

Actually, it's not very good, because it represents bad defense. You're putting the other team on the line unnecessarily. I believe it was Mr. Battier who observed that the worst defensive result was a foul.

Correct! Assuming a shooting foul and a FT percentage of 70%, the opponent has a 70% chance of scoring one point and a 49% chance of scoring two. But with good defense, you should be able to drive down the accuracy of jumpshots to well below 49%.

[jimsumner]

There are plenty of examples of seven-player rotations doing quite well at Duke. In 1992 Laettner, Hurley, Hill, Hill, Davis, Lang and Parks absorbed almost all the minutes and that's with Hurley and Grant missing major time with injuries. Marty Clark was 8th in minutes played with 268. Kenny Blakeney played 175, Eric Meek 143. Most of those were mop-up minutes.

Duke's 8th man in 1994 was Greg Newton, who played a whopping 115 minutes. K took that seven-man team to within a minute of a national championship.

Duke's 1986 team also largely had a seven-player rotation. Snyder was eighth with 277 minutes played.

Or look at Georgia Tech's 1990 team, which had a six-player rotation and played its three top players, Dennis Scott, Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, practically every competitive second in which they weren't in foul trouble. Cremins' best team.

It helps if you have players who can play different positions and fill different roles and Duke has that with this group. The three guards can all switch between the 1 and the
2, Dawkins can play the 2 or the 3, Singler can move inside and Kelly and Mason can play either the 4 or the 5. So, there's adequate flexibility.

The biggest drawback to playing seven, IMO, comes with fouls. A nine-player rotation can stretch 20 fouls a lot further than can a seven-player rotation. That's where the positional flexibility comes in and that's where Hairston and Thornton may make some contributions.

I do think Hairston and Thornton will get more opportunities to contribute in games this season and I'm not uncomfortable with seeing them on the court in controlled doses. But the head coach does know what he's doing and he has demonstrated that to the satisfaction of most observers.