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  1. #1

    Why can't we have a 9 man rotation?

    I understand that Coach K knows what is best. Period.
    What I would like is for someone to explain to me why Tyler can't put in some relief minutes since he is such a solid player. Nolan can go 40 minutes all year I guess but wouldn't he better with a little rest? Running the offense and then being the lock down defensive key is a tough job. Tyler has shown that he doesn't make mistakes and is very good defensively.
    Josh is a player that I think we NEED to log some minutes because of his energy and that mid range jumper is deadly accurate.
    We still have a team intact that can run and gun, play full court pressure defense and be who we all want to see. What am I missing?
    If Kyrie comes back we could be a ten man rotation with some experience. On the other hand, another injury to someone in our 7 man rotation would be devestating.
    I am certainly not complaining, I just don't understand

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Delaware
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratrat View Post
    I understand that Coach K knows what is best. Period.
    What I would like is for someone to explain to me why Tyler can't put in some relief minutes since he is such a solid player. Nolan can go 40 minutes all year I guess but wouldn't he better with a little rest? Running the offense and then being the lock down defensive key is a tough job. Tyler has shown that he doesn't make mistakes and is very good defensively.
    Josh is a player that I think we NEED to log some minutes because of his energy and that mid range jumper is deadly accurate.
    We still have a team intact that can run and gun, play full court pressure defense and be who we all want to see. What am I missing?
    If Kyrie comes back we could be a ten man rotation with some experience. On the other hand, another injury to someone in our 7 man rotation would be devestating.
    I am certainly not complaining, I just don't understand
    They have. They got the type of minutes you describe during the early season, but now is where the team needs to tighten up. If you take Nolan off the court for even a few minutes last night, that game gets pretty close. Josh and Tyler are solid, but there is a noticeable drop-off from the starters to them. When it comes to the tough games, you need to keep the best players on the court.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratrat View Post
    We still have a team intact that can run and gun, play full court pressure defense and be who we all want to see. What am I missing?
    If Kyrie comes back we could be a ten man rotation with some experience. On the other hand, another injury to someone in our 7 man rotation would be devestating.
    I am certainly not complaining, I just don't understand
    I think Coach K didn't like the match ups presented by Miami for Josh and Tyler, but I expect to see them in other games. Also, Coach K may have wanted to work the top 7 for whatever reason. If we're not deep, Coach K has sometimes in the past wanted his big dogs to know how to play tired. Maybe he wanted more pt for the lineups he worked last night. Regardless, as I said above, i expect those guys to get if the match ups are favorable.

  4. #4
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    I love our freshmen class.

    They will get plenty of minutes before they leave.

    No worries.

  5. #5
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    Feb 2009
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    Nashville
    Normally I'm in your camp, but Tyler and Josh are a significant drop off from our top seven at this point - they need some seasoning. That's not as much a knock on them as it is an indication of how good our top seven is.

    Also, it's important to note that we basically have seven starters - all of them might play 20+ minutes on a given night, regardless of who we're playing. That means we basically have as much depth as another team who plays 3-4 guys 10-15 minutes off the bench.

  6. #6
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    Normally I'm in your camp, but Tyler and Josh are a significant drop off from our top seven at this point - they need some seasoning. That's not as much a knock on them as it is an indication of how good our top seven is.

    Also, it's important to note that we basically have seven starters - all of them might play 20+ minutes on a given night, regardless of who we're playing. That means we basically have as much depth as another team who plays 3-4 guys 10-15 minutes off the bench.
    It's also important to note that the five rotation guys - Curry, Dawkins, Kelly and the Plumlees - also need seasoning, and need it right away.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratrat View Post
    If Kyrie comes back we could be a ten man rotation with some experience.
    The thing is, I don't think we could. In a tight game there really aren't enough minutes to go around for ten guys. Nine, maybe, but not ten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratrat View Post
    On the other hand, another injury to someone in our 7 man rotation would be devestating.
    The other thing is, if we had another injury, then Josh and/or Tyler would step in and we could still run a 7 man rotation (or maybe 8). Allowing them to be overmatched (assuming that's what K thinks would happen) would not help prepare them for a meaningful role in the future, and might be detrimental.

    Learning and growing in practice for I don't know how many hours a day is much more helpful than a few minutes in a game like last night's. Remember Casey Sanders in 2001? Or Elliot Williams in 2009? They both stepped in to major roles after playing very little in conference games to that point. Elliot Williams played 3 minutes or less in 5 of the first 7 conference games, and 7 minutes in one of the others, yet he was able to start and play 30+ minutes in each of the last 6 conference games, and start every game of the ACC and NCAA tournaments. Casey Sanders played 6 minutes or less in 5 of the first 7 conference games (including 1 min, 2 mins, and 4 mins), yet was able to start the last 10 games of the championship run after Carlos Boozer was injured.

    So based on history, if we have another injury (heaven forbid) I'm not worried that Josh and Tyler won't be ready to step up.

  8. #8
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratrat View Post
    I understand that Coach K knows what is best. Period.
    What I would like is for someone to explain to me why Tyler can't put in some relief minutes since he is such a solid player. Nolan can go 40 minutes all year I guess but wouldn't he better with a little rest? Running the offense and then being the lock down defensive key is a tough job. Tyler has shown that he doesn't make mistakes and is very good defensively.
    Josh is a player that I think we NEED to log some minutes because of his energy and that mid range jumper is deadly accurate.
    We still have a team intact that can run and gun, play full court pressure defense and be who we all want to see. What am I missing?
    If Kyrie comes back we could be a ten man rotation with some experience. On the other hand, another injury to someone in our 7 man rotation would be devestating.
    I am certainly not complaining, I just don't understand
    Come on, man. This same, same, same discussion has to be held on these boards every single year?

    K has made it abundantly clear over a long and fabulously successful career that if guys earn playing time by their performance in practice, they will get playing time, no matter their class. If they don't, they won't. He will go with a deeper rotation if enough guys earn time. If not, he'll go with a shorter rotation. He has been hugely successful both ways.

    There is nothing wrong with a 7 man rotation. Many coaches go no deeper, no matter what. Al McGuire always said that anytime you have to go deeper than your seventh man, it's "a Dunkirk."

    As for your assertions about Tyler and Josh, they are without basis. Josh's mid-range jumper is "deadly accurate?" Really? It may turn out to be. But at this point he's shooting 41% for the year from the field. We NEED his energy? Have you noticed a lack of energy from the guys playing regular minutes? Not a chance.

    Tyler is "such a solid player?" He may turn out to be, but there is no evidence of that at this point. He has averaged 7.7 minutes per game thus far, an average that is skewed upwards by 12 to 15 minutes per game against very weak teams like Colgate, Miami (Ohio) and UNCG. In our five toughest games -- Marquette, Kansas State, Michigan State, Butler, and Miami (Fla.) he has logged a total of 3 minutes of garbage time. He has scored three baskets so far in his Duke career.

    The rotation is fine, and will be even better when Kyrie is back. Just leave it at that. Josh's and Tyler's times will come.

  9. #9
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    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratrat View Post
    I understand that Coach K knows what is best. Period.
    What I would like is for someone to explain to me why Tyler can't put in some relief minutes since he is such a solid player. Nolan can go 40 minutes all year I guess but wouldn't he better with a little rest? Running the offense and then being the lock down defensive key is a tough job. Tyler has shown that he doesn't make mistakes and is very good defensively.
    Josh is a player that I think we NEED to log some minutes because of his energy and that mid range jumper is deadly accurate.
    We still have a team intact that can run and gun, play full court pressure defense and be who we all want to see. What am I missing?
    If Kyrie comes back we could be a ten man rotation with some experience. On the other hand, another injury to someone in our 7 man rotation would be devestating.
    I am certainly not complaining, I just don't understand
    In the late '90s, Coach K seemed to experiment with deeper rotations, and in particular, mass, five-for-five substitutions. We were extremely talented and deep during that period, but the mass substitutions (aside from the short-lived intimidation factor) really interrupted any rhythm and flow and we just weren't as good as we would have hoped (although I don't believe we have +/- numbers for those years, so it's difficult to say with statistical back-up that this was the case). My personal belief is that Coach K's tendency to trim the rotation fairly dramatically as the season progresses stems from his experience with the team during the late '90s.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Talking Combinations

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratrat View Post
    I understand that Coach K knows what is best. Period.
    What I would like is for someone to explain to me why Tyler can't put in some relief minutes since he is such a solid player. Nolan can go 40 minutes all year I guess but wouldn't he better with a little rest? Running the offense and then being the lock down defensive key is a tough job. Tyler has shown that he doesn't make mistakes and is very good defensively.
    Josh is a player that I think we NEED to log some minutes because of his energy and that mid range jumper is deadly accurate.
    We still have a team intact that can run and gun, play full court pressure defense and be who we all want to see. What am I missing?
    If Kyrie comes back we could be a ten man rotation with some experience. On the other hand, another injury to someone in our 7 man rotation would be devestating.
    I am certainly not complaining, I just don't understand
    It is a really good question, and I expect the answer is something like, "It takes a lot of work in both practice and games to get a given set of five players to play really well as a team. Seven or eight works, but nine is really hard."

    The other answer is, of course, if you want to see a nine-man rotation and its implications, look at UNC and Ol'Roy's substitution pattern.

    sagegrouse

  11. #11
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    Feb 2007
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    Austin, TX
    I used to be in the "why is our bench so short" camp. But the combination of Coach K's success with short benches and watching a team like 2009-2010 Texas, who was 11 deep at points last year, fall off a cliff because of chemistry issues, in K I trust.

    Now, do I want Kyle and Nolan playing 40 minutes in every ACC game? No. But I already expected they'd be averaging ~35 even with Kyrie. And if Curry can stay on the floor, then that allows those guys o sit some as well.

    But K's method is proven. I won't criticize

  12. #12
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    Aug 2007
    Hoping for an eight man rotation with Kyrie, although I love Josh's game.

  13. #13
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    Feb 2007
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    Nashville, TN

    And they haven't lost yet

    I always thought the 1st Duke loss was when this thread starts?

  14. #14
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    Jacksonville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by NashvilleDevil View Post
    I always thought the 1st Duke loss was when this thread starts?
    This is true but after a National Championship year the standards increase.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    The other answer is, of course, if you want to see a nine-man rotation and its implications, look at UNC and Ol'Roy's substitution pattern.

    sagegrouse
    I don't go over to IC very often, but the #1 complaint about Roy over there is his insane substitution patterns. Your point is spot-on. After Nolan goes nuts for a few minutes, are we really going to pull him and sit him on the bench for 4 minutes?

    As I said before I really like our freshman class. Their time will come, perhaps even later in the year as the game slows down for them and they make the jump to the next level. But I'm not sure who you'd pull off the floor right now, and the team needs game time to work on the sans-Kyrie lineups as is.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratrat View Post
    I understand that Coach K knows what is best. Period.
    What I would like is for someone to explain to me why Tyler can't put in some relief minutes since he is such a solid player. Nolan can go 40 minutes all year I guess but wouldn't he better with a little rest? Running the offense and then being the lock down defensive key is a tough job. Tyler has shown that he doesn't make mistakes and is very good defensively.
    Josh is a player that I think we NEED to log some minutes because of his energy and that mid range jumper is deadly accurate.
    We still have a team intact that can run and gun, play full court pressure defense and be who we all want to see. What am I missing?
    If Kyrie comes back we could be a ten man rotation with some experience. On the other hand, another injury to someone in our 7 man rotation would be devestating.
    I am certainly not complaining, I just don't understand
    I doubt there will be a 9 man rotation this year- 8 for sure if Kyrie comes back. But K coaches by feel and doesn't pull guys just so others can play or get experience. Thornton and Hairston will have their moments this year- because of foul trouble, matchups or an injury. Both have shown an ability to be real contributors.

  17. #17
    I think your gona see more shooting nights like the miami game from Kyle if he has to play 40 minutes and alot of minutes at the 4 position.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukeballboy88 View Post
    I think your gona see more shooting nights like the miami game from Kyle if he has to play 40 minutes and alot of minutes at the 4 position.
    I think I'd love to see the rebounds, defense and leadership we'd get if Kyle would play 40 minutes every night.

    Which, of course, he may do next year. Professionals play, what, 4 games a week with insane travel thrown in?

    But, at Duke, I think he'll be fine.

  19. #19
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    It's also important to note that the five rotation guys - Curry, Dawkins, Kelly and the Plumlees - also need seasoning, and need it right away.
    Coach K said earlier this season that there are no wasted minutes because 10 guys are prepared to play. He also said it does not make a whole lot of sense to limit Kyle and Nolan's minutes because your ceiling as a team gets lower with two All Americans on the bench. But with a long tv timetout every 4 minutes and their conditioning, it wont be a problem.

    Ryan got about 3-5 minutes per game last year down the stretch. But he earned it in practice because he picked up our defensive schemes well. I could see either Tyler or Josh being in that position, but I dont know anything about how they are practicing.

    In closing, I really dont see this as an issue. We've got as much talent in our 7 man rotation as we've had since maybe 1999, so I feel gooooood. Hopefully it becomes as 8 man rotation again soon.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington DC
    Looks like in the old days, no one came out of the game:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._g_season.html

    How exactly did Wilt average 48.52 minutes in a 48 minute game? They must have played 8-9 OT games. Iverson would be your modern day Iron Man. And none of our Duke guys will touch the punishment he went through at 160 lbs.

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