MBB: Duke 74, Miami 63 Post-Game Thread

[moonpie23]

what did y'all expect? this is acc play...all the talk of the acc being "down" or "weak" make you think we were gonna just walk all over them?


please..


it was a good game with some clunky parts... our team did well on many levels..

the thing that stuck out to me was our poor ball handling under the basket...how many rebounds were just clumsily lost out of bounds?


regardless, our guys played stout....

next game...

[Newton_14]

That same lost guy also had 4 turnovers, and was 1 of 5 from the field. 2 of those misses were from 3 ft and the other one started at 3 ft and ended at 10 ft due to god awful fade away, and then there was that air balled jumper that he still hasn't realized he does not need to be shooting. He wanted rebounds alright. So bad that Nolan corralled one and with only Seth and Nolan standing there Mason reaches in and tries to fight the ball away from Nolan, not realizing it was his teammate and nearly knocked him out of bounds in the process. Nolan passed the ball to Seth as he fell out of bounds then proceeded to glare at Mason. He also wandered around lost numerous times on both offense and defense. Johnson just made him look like...well I'm not even going there.

What you forget is I am a Duke fan like you, I bleed blue. I love these guys as much as all of you do. But that don't mean we should be like the parents who always see their kid as the best on the team, when they truthfully barely made the team. When these guys play great, I praise, when they play bad I am critical. I don't enjoy it, I would rather they play great personally. I am not trying to "bad mouth or bash" them. Just merely trying to discuss the weaknesses and problems that I saw in my Devils tonight, with people who love Duke basketball just as much as myself.

In fact I can make another post with all of the positives that I saw if you'd like. If it somehow balances out the negatives. But the positives mostly came from the guys that always do those things. So no big surprise. Nothing we haven't applauded them on hundreds of times before.

Well, Coach K disagree's with you. I listened to his comments on the ride home. I am not praising the team just for the sake of praising them. I viewed the game differently than you did. All team has weaknesses, this Duke team is no different. Mason is a sophomore big who is still very much learning but he is way beyond where he was last year. Because that has not translated into scoring, people believe he is a bad player. Our bigs are not the focus of the offense. We do not feed them the ball 25 times a game on the block. So a little unfair to be overly critical when they don't cash in on 100% of the 2 to 3 post up chances they get per game.

But my assessment of the game overall is not about Mason. As a whole the team played well, not poor. The defense was really good. Kyle and Seth did not shoot it as well as they can, but Nolan and Andre picked them up.

If I thought the team played poorly tonight I would have no problem saying it. But they did not play poorly. The intensity level was extremely high, and they competed. Miles played as hard as I have ever seen him play as did Ryan. Seth kind of got taken out of the game by the refs, but still played solid defense.

You saw things differently so we will agree to disagree.

[Kfanarmy]

I'm personally not mad that we didn't blow them out. I would have been completely satisfied with a 5 point win, if they played well and we played better than they did. But they didn't play well, and neither did we. You guys keep talking about this is a top 5 team in the ACC. So what? Where do they stand in the country? Last time I checked our goal isn't to win the ACC only. They gave us a very tough game.

If that were say Syracuse in the Tourney we would have gotten spanked bad. Miami's suspect zone D gave us fits when they ran it. Image what a Jimmy Boheim zone would do to us. I bet he'd run a 3-2 zone, force us to pass it inside, and we'd be up a certain creek without a paddle at that point because we can't score in the paint unless Kyrie is throwing lobs. I won't even get into us trying to stop someone like Jared Sullinger from having 30 and 15.

I know its our first conference game and everything, and its great we came away with a win. But we have issues. If you guys honestly feel like the team we watched play TONIGHT is capable of making a push for the final four, you are going to be extremely disappointed.

Most of the rest of us weren't actually playing...did "we" actually play poorly or did "we" watch? I'm confused. In any case, thanks for the season prediction. Shall we all go place $50 on Duke not making the tourney?

I understand concerns, but If Kyle shoots reasonably in this game, it is a blowout. Yes there are things to work on but I think the team has the goods to learn, improve, and finish strong.

Not sure where all the negativity is coming from. Teams that look perfect at this point of the season, don't always grow.

[dukeblue1206]

Anybody see at that with the last seconds ticking of the clock it looked like Coach K was ticked about something. He was motioning to the ref with a manner that looked like he was saying someone was shoved or pushed and then looked to say something about it to Frank Haith when they shook hands at the end of the game. Anybody who DVR'd it go back and check it out at the final seconds and see if you see anybody from Miami do anything. I didn't see anything but it looked like something got under Coach K's skin.

[4decadedukie]

I sent that comment.

I couldn't believe your post. I was hoping it was a poor attempt at sarcasm.

I sincerely appreciate your acknowledging your criticism. Let me assure you that my posts were not sarcastic, sardonic, or insincere; rather, #15 and #47 express my viewpoint re tonight's performance (and, much more important, its long-term potential). I hope I am entirely wrong, no one wants Duke to be victorious any more than I do! Obviously, this does not suggest that my opinions are necessarily correct or that they can/should not be debated. However, I understandably took exception to what I perceived as an unwarranted and unattributed criticism.

[Kfanarmy]

When Duke (especially this year, with all the "repeat Championship hyperbole") at home and in its ACC opener, does not decisively put away a second tier ACC opponent, it can -- I am NOT saying it will -- create corrosive doubts in our locker room as well as real optimism in our opponents'. Even worse, many of the deficiencies I observed this evening may not simply be those of a single poor game -- they may extend far deeper.

R U sure the corrosive doubts aren't a little closer to home than the Duke locker room? No seriously.

[Kedsy]

This close-to-embarrassing almost-home-loss to a lower-half ACC team should at least silence all the ridiculousness re Duke going undefeated, Duke being the presumptive National Champion, and so forth. We have weaknesses, some significant, the critical second-third of the season is underway, and we better blow Maryland out this week to ensure legitimate ACC contenders do not develop a "they are overrated, we can defeat them" attitude. Turnovers, rebounding, defensively created offense, transition defense, missed easy buckets, and the like MUST be immediately resolved, or this is season will evolve into one of disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential.

I'll put aside that this wasn't anywhere near "embarrassing," wasn't even close to being an "almost-home-loss," and that Miami isn't a "lower-half ACC team." I'll put aside that on January 2, nothing "MUST be immediately resolved."

Instead, I will share with you some games that the 1991-92 Duke team played against the lower half of the league:

1/2: @UVa (5th place in ACC that season): 68-62 win for Duke
2/12: @Ga Tech (4th place, so not lower half of the 9 team league, but as close to lower tier as Miami probably is): 71-62 win
2/20: Maryland at home (8th place in 9 team ACC): Duke 91-89 win
2/23: @Wake (6th place): 68-72 loss
2/26: UVa at home (5th place): 76-67 win
3/4: @Clemson (9th place in 9 team league): 98-97 win

There were weaknesses to be observed in all those games, but what I don't recall seeing were the "disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential." So perhaps you should lighten up just a little bit on your assessment and predictions?

My concern is that it is VERY late in the season for such substantial, team-wide assessment and resurrection.

Is it later in the season than the substantial team-wide assessment and resurrection we saw in 2010 or 2001? (Or lots of other seasons where we may not have won the national championship but had damn good seasons anyway?) Hint: of course not, it's the very first league game of the season.

I'm not trying to demean your opinion, but your panic-laced negativity sure is puzzling.

[COYS]

I'll put aside that this wasn't anywhere near "embarrassing," wasn't even close to being an "almost-home-loss," and that Miami isn't a "lower-half ACC team." I'll put aside that on January 2, nothing "MUST be immediately resolved."

Instead, I will share with you some games that the 1991-92 Duke team played against the lower half of the league:

1/2: @UVa (5th place in ACC that season): 68-62 win for Duke
2/12: @Ga Tech (4th place, so not lower half of the 9 team league, but as close to lower tier as Miami probably is): 71-62 win
2/20: Maryland at home (8th place in 9 team ACC): Duke 91-89 win
2/23: @Wake (6th place): 68-72 loss
2/26: UVa at home (5th place): 76-67 win
3/4: @Clemson (9th place in 9 team league): 98-97 win

There were weaknesses to be observed in all those games, but what I don't recall seeing were the "disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential." So perhaps you should lighten up just a little bit on your assessment and predictions?



Is it later in the season than the substantial team-wide assessment and resurrection we saw in 2010 or 2001? (Or lots of other seasons where we may not have won the national championship but had damn good seasons anyway?) Hint: of course not, it's the very first league game of the season.

I'm not trying to demean your opinion, but your panic-laced negativity sure is puzzling.

I'll back you up, Kedsy. Last season we were blown out by an NC State team that was rated 68 in Pomeroy, which is WORSE than Miami's 56 rating this season. To me, THAT was an embarrassing loss that could easily have eroded the psyche of the team. That game also occurred later in January and was not the first game against serious competition played without one of our star players. I'll give you, 4decadedukie, that the NC State loss was on the road. But I still would consider that loss to be more likely to have exposed some irreparable weakness than a 12 point victory in which we led comfortably for virtually the entire game. In many ways, tonight's game is like the 5th game of the new, post-Kyrie season. Many of us were scared that the closer-than-expected game against Marquette heralded a loss against either KSU or MSU. Instead, the team improved and played better against those two tougher teams. I strongly suspect that our offense will look much more polished in a few weeks after the team has had a chance to adjust to playing tough competition with the new offensive approach. At any rate, I do think it's way too early to worry about irreparable weaknesses.

[4decadedukie]

We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility. I am hardly panicky; rather, I am concerned about similar indicators that potentially could adversely and materially impact Duke's 2011 performance.

[JMarley50]

Most of the rest of us weren't actually playing...did "we" actually play poorly or did "we" watch? I'm confused. In any case, thanks for the season prediction. Shall we all go place $50 on Duke not making the tourney?

I understand concerns, but If Kyle shoots reasonably in this game, it is a blowout. Yes there are things to work on but I think the team has the goods to learn, improve, and finish strong.

Not sure where all the negativity is coming from. Teams that look perfect at this point of the season, don't always grow.

If you really want to try and play this game "we" can... I say "we" because if you have ever listened to coach K speak you would know that he says this is "our" team, including the people in the stands and fans. He says "we" all contribute to the success that is Duke basketball. "We" may not contribute directly on the floor, but "we" do laugh, scream, cheer, sweat, and even cry with the guys on the floor. Without "us" there would be nobody there to watch the team play. Therefore no need to even have a team. Is that really the best you can come up with??

Check your facts too. I never said they wouldn't make the tournament, and it would be quite ignorant of me to think that this team wouldn't make the tournament. I said do you honestly see the team that played TONIGHT making the final four?? I also never made season predictions... I spoke hypothetically (given your erroneous accusations I'm not sure you'll understand that word) that if "we" played a team such as Syracuse and played the way "we" played tonight, "we'd" get spanked and gave the reasons for MY opinion.

And just for the record lets say Kyle doesn't shoot reasonable tonight, yet Miami who went 3-17 from 3pt makes 3 more of those attempts. Then Johnson doesn't sit a good portion of the game due to foul trouble, at the rate he was going he would have at least had 30. If you add in that they were 12-20 from the free throw line and could have easily made a few more of those.."WE" lose.

That's my point, as well as the other people who are disappointed in tonight's effort. This game could have very easily went the other way. I do understand that this team is still developing. The purpose of this particular thread is to discuss how they played tonight. Everything I have said is based on TONIGHT. Back up at the very beginning of this I said they must learn from this and improve. Regardless how you view tonight's game I think we all agree that tonight's performance won't win the National Title. That's all we were saying.

[El_Diablo]

If that were say Syracuse in the Tourney we would have gotten spanked bad. Miami's suspect zone D gave us fits when they ran it. Image what a Jimmy Boheim zone would do to us. I bet he'd run a 3-2 zone, force us to pass it inside, and we'd be up a certain creek without a paddle at that point because we can't score in the paint unless Kyrie is throwing lobs.

Ha...I must have missed this post the first time through. Way to go out on a limb there and predict that Syracuse would play a 3-2 zone. But I agree with you that it would be a problem if Kyrie never comes back and we were to play a similar game against a better opponent.

But wait, is that the same Syracuse team that was locked in a 1-point game at home with two minutes left against NC State...who was playing without Tracy Smith??? Ah, whew, it's a good thing we won't actually have to face Syracuse in the tournament, because they clearly will not make it to the big dance. Same with Kansas, who beat 3-3 UCLA by 1 at home, and 6-5 USC at home by 2. I hear Kansas is packing it up for the year after those embarrassments. And Ohio State almost lost to #153-ranked IUPUI (11-point win at home, same as our margin tonight)...they're done.

Seriously, it's a long season. Sometimes a team is off a little (see Syracuse, Kansas, OSU). Good teams, and good coaches, will adjust. Sure, there were some frustrating things tonight, but we have plenty of time to tweak things. A loss this early would be nothing more than a bump in the road, much less a double-digit win against a solid team.

[Duvall]

We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility.

That's a fairly absurd way to view a three point loss to the #2 team in the country.

And I'm pretty sure the development of no Duke team has even been positively or adversely affected by the beliefs of "the entire Duke community."

[M B Walker]

We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility.

Since nothing said on this forum impacted the team's performance in 2004 (or any other year, for that matter), are you saying that the team -- and the Coach -- felt that they were invincible, and that's why we lost to UConn? I find it very hard to believe that Coach K would ever think any team was invincible. Could you explain why you think he did, please?

[4decadedukie]

I'll back you up, Kedsy. Last season we were blown out by an NC State team that was rated 68 in Pomeroy, which is WORSE than Miami's 56 rating this season. To me, THAT was an embarrassing loss that could easily have eroded the psyche of the team. That game also occurred later in January and was not the first game against serious competition played without one of our star players. I'll give you, 4decadedukie, that the NC State loss was on the road. But I still would consider that loss to be more likely to have exposed some irreparable weakness than a 12 point victory in which we led comfortably for virtually the entire game. In many ways, tonight's game is like the 5th game of the new, post-Kyrie season. Many of us were scared that the closer-than-expected game against Marquette heralded a loss against either KSU or MSU. Instead, the team improved and played better against those two tougher teams. I strongly suspect that our offense will look much more polished in a few weeks after the team has had a chance to adjust to playing tough competition with the new offensive approach. At any rate, I do think it's way too early to worry about irreparable weaknesses.

I agree with your facts. However, my visceral feeling is last year's team had exceptional tenacity, continuous improvement, internal cohesion, leadership, selflessness, and character; these are the reasons and the traits that allowed Duke to overachieve and that eventually resulted in the National Championship. I know this will be highly unpopular, but I do not yet see the same degree of grit in this year's team. Tonight's performance is, in my opinion, indicative of this. I deeply hope I am wrong, no one wants Duke to be victorious -- and win it all -- any more than I do. I attended last season's Georgetown debacle; it is my strongly held belief that that substantial and highly visible loss was critical to our ultimate success and that it galvanized our team. That required real determination. I did not observe such determination in our team tonight. Some will say -- and they may well be correct -- that it's only one game, and we won it solidly. While that is an accurate factual appraisal, there are MANY crucial elements to victory that are decidedly less tangible; leadership, character, tenacity, and so forth fall in that category. Critically, they are simply indispensable in teams that aspire to win the National Championship.

[-jk]

We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility. I am hardly panicky; rather, I am concerned about similar indicators that potentially could adversely and materially impact Duke's 2011 performance.

Almost every college team has deficiencies. That's the nature of college ball.

The one-and-done tourneys don't have predictable results. Fabulous ratings, but not predictable. That's their nature.

I'd love to have a juggernaut this year. So would every college fan. Most of us'll be dissapointed. Our odds are better than most.

Regardless, we're still fans. We still get emotionally entangled with our team.

We've been enjoying one of the greatest runs ever. Let's enjoy it. Worry here and there, but enjoy it.

-jk

[4decadedukie]

I'm pretty sure the development of no Duke team has even been positively or adversely affected by the beliefs of "the entire Duke community."

We are dealing with youngsters, with an average age approximating twenty. Do you believe, despite the wisdom and the guidance of coaches and other mentors, that they are immune to a season-long "drumbeat" from the media, from expert pundits, from their classmates, perhaps from parents, siblings and friends, and from boosters and alumni, all of which indicate that they are the presumptive winners? I do not.

[Kedsy]

We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility. I am hardly panicky; rather, I am concerned about similar indicators that potentially could adversely and materially impact Duke's 2011 performance.

(A) I am fairly confident no Duke team has ever lost because the fans thought the team was invincible. I am also reasonably confident that Coach K has never allowed his players or staff to believe the team was invincible. (Beyond that, I'm not sure I understand who the "entire Duke community" is);

(B) I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure we didn't lose that game on the final shot (my recollection is we had the ball with a chance to win but Trajan turned it over and then we fouled a UConn player and he hit a free throw or two to ice it, but as I say I'm not certain of that);

(C) In the 1998-99 season, Duke was ranked #1 for 8 weeks and UConn was ranked #1 for 10 weeks (which means, to repeat the obvious, that not only were we not "ranked first throughout the entire regular season," but UConn was ranked #1 more weeks than we were), and losing by three points to them was probably not "a result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season," but rather because a team who was pretty much even with us played just a little better than we did on that particular day;

(D) I personally don't think that anything that happened in seasons past will have any effect on what's going to happen to this year's team, except possibly as a teaching moment to the players or coaches (which doesn't appear to be your point, but I can't say that for certain) but if you want to look into the past for things that might predict the future, I'd suggest you look at last year and how the team regrouped after significantly worse (and later) performances than tonight's.

EDIT: I just read another post of yours, but can you honestly say you saw that "grit" you speak of during the Georgetown game last year, and that after that game you expected the team to bounce back like they did? Or are you looking at things in hindsight?

[JMarley50]

Ha...I must have missed this post the first time through. Way to go out on a limb there and predict that Syracuse would play a 3-2 zone. But I agree with you that it would be a problem if Kyrie never comes back and we were to play a similar game against a better opponent.

But wait, is that the same Syracuse team that was locked in a 1-point game at home with two minutes left against NC State...who was playing without Tracy Smith??? Ah, whew, it's a good thing we won't actually have to face Syracuse in the tournament, because they clearly will not make it to the big dance. Same with Kansas, who beat 3-3 UCLA by 1 at home, and 6-5 USC at home by 2. I hear Kansas is packing it up for the year after those embarrassments. And Ohio State almost lost to #153-ranked IUPUI (11-point win at home, same as our margin tonight)...they're done.

Seriously, it's a long season. Sometimes a team is off a little (see Syracuse, Kansas, OSU). Good teams, and good coaches, will adjust. Sure, there were some frustrating things tonight, but we have plenty of time to tweak things. A loss this early would be nothing more than a bump in the road, much less a double-digit win against a solid team.

Thank you! Some people should take notes! I understand you were for the most part disagreeing and even threw in a little sarcasm. But your comments made me smile. The whole purpose of this board is to discuss. There are usually multiple opinions in discussions and they can be completely different, but they are just opinions. Everyone is entitled to one. You agreed and disagreed but I didn't feel like I was being attacked like others have done to several of us here tonight.

Heck I have gotten so caught up in defending my opinion and right to an opinion that I didn't even get to the positives that I was going to talk about in tonight's game!

In regards to the zone, maybe using Syracuse as an hypothetical example wasn't the best choice, but they just always play darn good zone D. I would definitely throw a 3-2 or some type of match-up zone if I was coaching against this team. We can put 3 or 4 dead-eye shooters on the perimeter, and with good ball movement a 2-3 just can't close out quick enough.

[4decadedukie]

Since nothing said on this forum impacted the team's performance in 2004 (or any other year, for that matter), are you saying that the team -- and the Coach -- felt that they were invincible, and that's why we lost to UConn? I find it very hard to believe that Coach K would ever think any team was invincible. Could you explain why you think he did, please?

I certainty do not believe the coaching staff ever thought Duke was invincible (in any year or any individual game); in fact, I am sure they attempted to convince the team of exactly the opposite conclusion. The players, however, MAY be more-influenced by a year-long "drumbeat" of inevitable victory. Please see my post #76, which provides a little more detail.

[tele]

while some may say there is no such thing as a good loss, or a bad conference win even in a down ACC, you can certainly find room for improvement after either one. I'm not saying this was a bad win by any measure, but I can see that there are legitimate causes for concern. I'll just point out two obvious ones that may have already been mentioned and discussed. Both Kyle and Nolan played a full 40 minutes, and the team only played 7 deep. That's a bad call, foul trouble or an injury away from a very different outlook on things, not half full or half empty, just on the level.

Not having a wider lead means that the game pressure was on a full 40 and you only went 7 deep on the bench. Over the long run, this is less than ideal, and could be a weakness. That's different than saying you have to blow someone out to be a good win.

Anyway, I think both teams played hard and it was a well played game and a well deserved and well earned victory for Duke. I'm sure Miami can find some good things to take away from their effort too.

Nolan had another really nice game, he is really fun to watch when he has the ball in the open court, puts a load of pressure on the opposing team with his unselfish passes, ability to get the rim and finish or just to pull up and hit the three. He reminds me of someone who was also really great bringing the ball up in the open court, but I won't go there again.

Seth has to bring it.