NC State and Sidney Lowe

[bluepenguin]

Just wondering whether it is time for the annual: Jason "It's time to replace Sidney Lowe" Evans thread?

[wilko]

Just wondering whether it is time for the annual: Jason "It's time to replace Sidney Lowe" Evans thread?

Since State DID manage a win against us Last yr... I'm inclined to think he is doing OK.
A little "too" ok actually..

[davekay1971]

So far, State's season has to be described as disappointing. They've played four good teams and gone 0-4 against them. Granted, all four of those losses are without their best player and senior leader, and that means something. However, the loss of Tracy Smith doesn't explain State absolutely quitting against Wisconsin, nor does it explain a 10 point home loss to a decent but not exceptional Arizona team. It doesn't explain consistently poor decisionmaking, bad turnovers, defensive lapses that cost State the Arizona game and kept them from scoring a big win at Syracuse. As much as I personally like Sidney Lowe, those are the hallmark signs of a poorly coached team.

They are also, however, the signs of a young team that hasn't quite gotten it yet, and even a great coach may struggle to get a freshman-laden squad to learn how to play smart, consistent basketball.

So, despite a disappointing start without any statement wins and with some pretty bad stretches of basketball, the jury, in my mind, is still out. Is it Lowe's coaching, Tracy's injury, or a team that's young and just learning how to play college ball? Or is it a combination?

Well, they'll get Smith back at some point, hopefully by the start of ACC play, and the freshmen are going to keep getting lots of experience and should learn. If State starts to put it together and has a good ACC season and makes the NCAA tournament, I think Sidney gets a chance to stay around and keep coaching the talent he's recruited. If they stumble along to a .500 record in the league and find themselves back in the NIT, I think Debbie Yow pulls the trigger and sees if someone else can do a better job coaching Harrow, Brown, Wood, etc...

[mkline09]

So far, State's season has to be described as disappointing. They've played four good teams and gone 0-4 against them. Granted, all four of those losses are without their best player and senior leader, and that means something. However, the loss of Tracy Smith doesn't explain State absolutely quitting against Wisconsin, nor does it explain a 10 point home loss to a decent but not exceptional Arizona team. It doesn't explain consistently poor decisionmaking, bad turnovers, defensive lapses that cost State the Arizona game and kept them from scoring a big win at Syracuse. As much as I personally like Sidney Lowe, those are the hallmark signs of a poorly coached team.

They are also, however, the signs of a young team that hasn't quite gotten it yet, and even a great coach may struggle to get a freshman-laden squad to learn how to play smart, consistent basketball.

So, despite a disappointing start without any statement wins and with some pretty bad stretches of basketball, the jury, in my mind, is still out. Is it Lowe's coaching, Tracy's injury, or a team that's young and just learning how to play college ball? Or is it a combination?

Well, they'll get Smith back at some point, hopefully by the start of ACC play, and the freshmen are going to keep getting lots of experience and should learn. If State starts to put it together and has a good ACC season and makes the NCAA tournament, I think Sidney gets a chance to stay around and keep coaching the talent he's recruited. If they stumble along to a .500 record in the league and find themselves back in the NIT, I think Debbie Yow pulls the trigger and sees if someone else can do a better job coaching Harrow, Brown, Wood, etc...

Lowe made an interesting comment last night after the loss to Arizona. He said Tracy is going to have to learn to play through some pain. Sounds like the knee is structurally fine just hurting him and sounds as if he could play but just doesn't feel comfortable.

Not sure if that is as bad as it sounds, but that is scary to think a coach would want a college kid playing through pain. Lowe is in trouble. If they don't at least make the tournament with the level of talent he has this year the fans will be calling for his head, those that aren't already. Even without Smith like you said there is no excuse to losing like they did to Wisconsin.

[superdave]

I just checked out State's schedule - 4 out-of-conference games in the next two weeks, then the ACC. They can and should go at least 3-1 if not 4-0 in the near term.

Assuming 3-1 puts them at 9-5 going into conference. If they go 8-8 or worse in conference with no ACC tourney win, they're not getting into the NCAAs. But 9-7 with 1 ACC tourney win makes them 19-12 and puts them at least on the bubble. I think as weak as the ACC is this year, they're going to need 20 wins heading into selection Sunday.

[Acymetric]

Lowe made an interesting comment last night after the loss to Arizona. He said Tracy is going to have to learn to play through some pain. Sounds like the knee is structurally fine just hurting him and sounds as if he could play but just doesn't feel comfortable.

Not sure if that is as bad as it sounds, but that is scary to think a coach would want a college kid playing through pain. Lowe is in trouble. If they don't at least make the tournament with the level of talent he has this year the fans will be calling for his head, those that aren't already. Even without Smith like you said there is no excuse to losing like they did to Wisconsin.

Well if he wants to play in the NBA playing through pain is something he'll have to learn to do...I don't really see a problem with that as long as they are 100% sure that playing will not cause further injury or prolong the recovery.

[mkline09]

Well if he wants to play in the NBA playing through pain is something he'll have to learn to do...I don't really see a problem with that as long as they are 100% sure that playing will not cause further injury or prolong the recovery.

This is true but I just don't agree with making a kid play through pain or calling him out because he doesn't feel comfortable. Don't get me wrong I like Lowe as a coach, I couldn't see K doing it though.

If the kid isn't comfortable then don't play him. And don't make excuses like if we had him we would... If he goes out there trying to avoid an injury or worsening an injury then he is opening himself up to an injury. That seems to be how those things happen. You play tentative and not at full speed you seem to get hurt or so the story goes.

[jimsumner]

This is true but I just don't agree with making a kid play through pain or calling him out because he doesn't feel comfortable. Don't get me wrong I like Lowe as a coach, I couldn't see K doing it though.

If the kid isn't comfortable then don't play him. And don't make excuses like if we had him we would... If he goes out there trying to avoid an injury or worsening an injury then he is opening himself up to an injury. That seems to be how those things happen. You play tentative and not at full speed you seem to get hurt or so the story goes.

I was at that press conference. In fairness to Lowe, it should be pointed out that he said several times that he would not force Smith or anyone else to play when they didn't want to and side-stepped some pointed questions that would have enabled him to more directly criticize Smith had he been so inclined.

Lowe also pointed out that this was the first serious injury of Smith's career and that Smith was still figuring out how to deal with it. Lowe's frustration was quite obvious.

State has talent but hasn't meshed. Smith is a half-court player, the freshmen are more run-and-gun types. They need some time together while they still have the Delaware States of the world on their schedule. The more time Smith sits out, the harder it's going to be to get everyone on the same page.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I too would give them some time to iron out some of the kinks in their games. Of the 14 players on their team, 9 of them are freshman or sophomores. That is a lot of young talent and you couple that with the fact that their best player has been hurting, that is a recipe for disaster. It is unsettling that they had 4 good chances at getting a marquee out-of-conference win and failed miserably, so they are honestly probably headed to the NIT. I do think they have a good future and if you give them some time, they'll improve. If you get rid of Lowe now or soon, you are just adding to the fire I think.

[jimsumner]

I too would give them some time to iron out some of the kinks in their games. Of the 14 players on their team, 9 of them are freshman or sophomores. That is a lot of young talent and you couple that with the fact that their best player has been hurting, that is a recipe for disaster. It is unsettling that they had 4 good chances at getting a marquee out-of-conference win and failed miserably, so they are honestly probably headed to the NIT. I do think they have a good future and if you give them some time, they'll improve. If you get rid of Lowe now or soon, you are just adding to the fire I think.

You may be right about Lowe. But I'm reasonably certain that an NIT appearance for State this season will lead to a coaching change.

[JasonEvans]

You may be right about Lowe. But I'm reasonably certain that an NIT appearance for State this season will lead to a coaching change.

He is in his 5th year with 2 NIT appearances (1 in year 1, one last year) and zero NCAA appearances to show for it. He is yet to finish higher than a tie for 9th in the conference and yet to post a conference record better than 6-10.

At any school, let alone one with a fabulous basketball tradition, that should have your head on the chopping block.

-Jason "no NCAA this year, no Sid next year" Evans

[Duvall]

He is in his 5th year with 2 NIT appearances (1 in year 1, one last year) and zero NCAA appearances to show for it. He is yet to finish higher than a tie for 9th in the conference and yet to post a conference record better than 6-10.

At any school, let alone one with a fabulous basketball tradition, that should have your head on the chopping block.

-Jason "no NCAA this year, no Sid next year" Evans

At what point does State's fabulous basketball tradition become as irrelevant as CCNY's? State's glory days are now a distant memory not just for potential recruits, but for parents of potential recruits.

State does have the advantage of a large and engaged fanbase, which matters a lot. But it's not clear how much tradition still helps them.

[davekay1971]

At what point does State's fabulous basketball tradition become as irrelevant as CCNY's? State's glory days are now a distant memory not just for potential recruits, but for parents of potential recruits.

State does have the advantage of a large and engaged fanbase, which matters a lot. But it's not clear how much tradition still helps them.

To high school kids being recruited, State's championships from 74 and 83 are already irrelevant...and they're probably not sure if the Everett Case years happened before or after dinosaurs became extinct.

To NC State fans, that history will never become irrelevant. Whether or not it's a realistic hope for State to compete on an even level with Duke and UNC, the Wolfpack fans have the legitimate pride that their program was the foundation of Tobacco Road basketball. Yes, they've been long surpassed by Duke and UNC. Doesn't matter. Their fans aren't going to settle on a coach that makes them a somewhat more respectable third best program in the Triangle, they aren't going to settle for middle of the pack ACC finishes while Duke and UNC take turns winning ACC championships, and they aren't going to settle for occassional sweet 16s when we're making the final four.

And they shouldn't. They do have a great, rich basketball history, they have great facilities, they play in an elite basketball conference, and, as we've seen right here at Duke, a college program like that is one great hire away from being a national power.

I had hoped Sidney would get the job done at State, and I still hope he will (though I doubt it at this point), but if he doesn't, why shouldn't the State fans hope to hire some fresh faced Polish guy from a sorry program like Army and enjoy a return to basketball glory?

[Acymetric]

At what point does State's fabulous basketball tradition become as irrelevant as CCNY's? State's glory days are now a distant memory not just for potential recruits, but for parents of potential recruits.

State does have the advantage of a large and engaged fanbase, which matters a lot. But it's not clear how much tradition still helps them.

Know what might be a better comparison than CCNY (although its a different sport)? Duke football.

[CameronBornAndBred]

This quote says my thoughts very well. (Also, it's a good article to read.)

Maybe the Wolfpack wouldn't be 6-4 with no quality wins if it didn't have an unfortunate injury to Tracy Smith. It's an obvious blow to their team. But it's been made out like State is incapable of doing anything without Smith in the lineup. He's an important player, but if not having Smith for a few games meant the Wolfpack wouldn't win a single quality game without him, then they weren't that good to begin with.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/8802958/

[Slackerb]

I'm not so pessimistic.

Sure, State hasn't looked very good so far, and it's true that it's NCAA hopes are dwindling, but they also don't have any bad losses and have been close in every game except the Wisconsin debacle.

Without Tracy Smith and with one of the youngest teams in nation based on playing time.

They've definitely disappointed, but to me its nothing that can't possibly be fixed, and State IMO will turn into a NCAA tourney caliber team by the end of the season, even if they don't make it because of the disappointing start.

To me, this is one of the scariest teams in the ACC outside of Duke. Sure, they'll probably bungle a few games, but they'll beat a few teams they weren't supposed to (like last year, but even moreso).

This quote says my thoughts very well. (Also, it's a good article to read.)


http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/8802958/

[shoutingncu]

I think another factor is going to be the Amato clause... If State gets swept by UNC again, that may go just as far as an NIT berth in Lowe's dismissal (unofficially, of course).

[superdave]

I think another factor is going to be the Amato clause... If State gets swept by UNC again, that may go just as far as an NIT berth in Lowe's dismissal (unofficially, of course).

Isnt Unc supposed to collapse again this year? I thought that was the plan based on the fact that they were better at this point last year.

Getting swept by Unc would mean State is likely a sub-.500 team in conference which would be the actual problem. Also, I'm not sure anyone can definitely say what Tracy Smith brings to the table when he returns though.

[sagegrouse]

I think another factor is going to be the Amato clause... If State gets swept by UNC again, that may go just as far as an NIT berth in Lowe's dismissal (unofficially, of course).

This is a really good point. State lost to UNC in 2010, 63-77 at home and 61-74 away. That provided UNC with two (TWO) of its five (FIVE) conference wins. I suspect State HAS to win at least one game this year against UNC for Sidney to survive.

sagegrouse

[Greg_Newton]

You may be right about Lowe. But I'm reasonably certain that an NIT appearance for State this season will lead to a coaching change.

I wonder what their conference record would have to be for that to happen?

Their best OOC win will be George Mason or ECU, and they've lost to all four BCS teams they've played. With such a weak ACC, I doubt 9-7 would make the cut, and I'm not even sure 10-6 would be a guarantee without beating Duke.