The Kyrie Irving Toe Vigil

[Devil07]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=303420150

Afterward, Krzyzewski called Irving's injury "a serious one" that is being evaluated by doctors both at Duke and nationally. He said the team hopes to learn more about his status in the next week to 10 days, though he said there was a possibility Irving might be lost for the season.

"It is serious and whatever final decision is made, it's going to be based on what's in his best interests in his career, not to save him for any period of time or whatever," Krzyzewski said. "But he could be out for a long time."

I'm holding out hope, but I certainly don't like the sounds of that...

[airowe]

To be clear - I have not read from any official sources that Kyrie has "turf toe". But the treatment of typical turf toe doesn't take all that long...

The original diagnosis I was told, and this has been posted elsewhere so I feel comfortable posting it here, was "severe" turf toe. There are a number of doctors working on Kyrie though so I believe that was only the opinion of one of them.

[billy]

why is turf toe so much worse than a sprain??

Just to be clear, I don't have any insider information about Kyrie; I'm not saying that turf toe is his diagnosis. In regards to the question:

Technically, turf toe is a sprain. Turf toe refers to an injury specifically to the big toe joint at the point where that toe meets the foot. It happens when the toe is forced into hyperextension at that joint (the metatarsophalangeal joint), for instance when the base of the front of your shoe is still contacting the floor but the heel lifts up and then someone falls onto the heel, driving the foot into the ground and injuring that joint by forcing it into hyperextension. Severity of turf toe is graded based on structures involved. Some authors recommend grade III tears be treated surgically.

The reason turf toe could be considered worse than a different type of sprain is that about 1/3 of your bodyweight goes through the metatarsophalangeal joint when walking/running, moreso than other joints. Also because it can require surgery in worst-case scenarios. Also because it can lead to painful arthritis of that joint in the future.

Interestingly, Derrick Rose has turf toe injury but has been able to play on it. Obviously a lower grade injury.

While ESPN is an unusual source for medical information, here's a link to a pretty good article about turf toe in sports:
http://espn.go.com/trainingroom/s/1999/0901/13907.html

[gep]

I think... the best thing... is if it's best for Kyrie's long-term health that he be out for the season, then "so be it". It will only bring Duke down a bit to the level of "everyone else"... which will make for an even more interesting season. Like last year, who knew in Dec 2009 that an NC was even a possibility???? We go with the flow... next play...

That being said, I *really* enjoyed watching Kyrie... I kept being amazed with everything he did... and really wanted to see him in full stride for the entire season... all the way to the NC!!!

[billy]

The original diagnosis I was told, and this has been posted elsewhere so I feel comfortable posting it here, was "severe" turf toe. There are a number of doctors working on Kyrie though so I believe that was only the opinion of one of them.

That would certainly make sense given the reported recommendation of at least one specialist for surgical intervention as mentioned earlier in the thread. The return to play after surgery for turf toe is typically several months...

[AlaskanAssassin]

Wow, did not expect K to say that. I'm actually in shock right now. smh We have to make major adjustments now.

[-jk]

One question clearly comes to mind. Why the heck did they put him back in the game on Saturday? Also after watching tonights game it's very plain to see that on our twelve man roster we don't have another pure point guard.

Apparently it wasn't bothering him enough not to. Players get hurt in games all the time and come back in. Rolled ankle, dislocated finger, broken wrist, dislocated shoulder, hip pointer, broken foot - the list goes on and on. Just last season, Kyle played through some sort of wrist injury.

Occasionally, after the adrenaline wears off and the x-rays and MRIs are done, they discover it's worse than they thought during the game. Let's hope Kyrie's back in weeks rather than months...

-jk

[Zeus12888]

Apparently it wasn't bothering him enough not to. Players get hurt in games all the time and come back in. Rolled ankle, dislocated finger, broken wrist, dislocated shoulder, hip pointer, broken foot - the list goes on and on. Just last season, Kyle played through some sort of wrist injury.

Occasionally, after the adrenaline wears off and the x-rays and MRIs are done, they discover it's worse than they thought during the game. Let's hope Kyrie's back in weeks rather than months...

-jk

At this point I'm hoping for comes back at all...

[BlueintheFace]

For the love of god, won't somebody start an "its over" thread?

[ncexnyc]

Last time I checked this was the Duke Basketball TEAM. We can and will get through this.

[roywhite]

For the love of god, won't somebody start an "its over" thread?

"It's over."

devildeac called it early; post #29 in this thread.

[richardjackson199]

The original diagnosis I was told, and this has been posted elsewhere so I feel comfortable posting it here, was "severe" turf toe. There are a number of doctors working on Kyrie though so I believe that was only the opinion of one of them.

I don't want to assume anything. If "severe" turf toe means "grade 3" turf toe - here is what pub med recommends for management...

"Grade III injuries may involve complete disruption of plantar structures, significant swelling or ecchymosis, hallux flexion weakness, or frank instability of the MTP joint. Management of these injuries can be nonsurgical, with immobilization in plantar flexion to allow the plantar structures to oppose and heal. Recently, however, Anderson27 reported on the surgical outcomes of 19 collegiate and professional athletes with grade III turf toe injury who underwent open repair of the ruptured capsuloligamentous complex. All but two athletes returned to their previous level of participation; this finding validates the use of more aggressive management in grade III turf toe injury.
Our preferred technique for managing complete rupture is direct primary repair of the plantar capsuloligamentous complex through a two-incision approach (ie, medial and plantar).28 An important aspect of recovery is appropriate player expectations regarding return to play. Following surgical repair, it may take 6 to 12 months before the player can return to full competition without the need for a protective orthosis or taping. The necessity of surgery appears to be sport- and position-dependent." The table from that article for grade 3 turf toe injuries recommends..."Long-term immobilization in a boot or a cast or surgical reconstruction. Return to play in 10-16 weeks, depending on sport and position. Taping or bracing likely needed."

[mr shadow 008]

So I have a question. Let's say hypothetically Kyrie is out for the season, does he come back next year? Or do you think he goes to draft?

[J4Kop99]

Terrible, Terrible news. I feel bad for him if this is in fact the case. The team will definitely have to step up if Kyrie somehow is out for the entire season.

I really can't believe this to be true... he was doing so well. Nothing we can do for now though except wait for more information. Hopefully we get some good info before Saturday's game.

[Kedsy]

So I have a question. Let's say hypothetically Kyrie is out for the season, does he come back next year? Or do you think he goes to draft?

I don't know that it affects his decision, any more than the lockout would affect it. It's possible he feels the pull of "unfinished business" and wants to come back, but it's also possible the injury makes him see his own mortality and fuels his desire to get out there as quickly as he can.

Ultimately, we're going to have to wait for that answer. We're going to have to wait and see how long he'll be out, too. I know everyone's anxious and impatient to know, but I don't think it's going to happen that way.

Hopefully we get some good info before Saturday's game.

I'm pretty sure K said we won't know too much more for another 10 days or so. That makes it unlikely we'll hear anything (good or bad) before Saturday.

[dukeballer2294]

its confusing to me that k would make comments about him coming back from this setback earlier today on goduke.com but then after the game make drastic comments like this...

[gam7]

I don't want to assume anything. If "severe" turf toe means "grade 3" turf toe - here is what pub med recommends for management...

"Grade III injuries may involve complete disruption of plantar structures, significant swelling or ecchymosis, hallux flexion weakness, or frank instability of the MTP joint. Management of these injuries can be nonsurgical, with immobilization in plantar flexion to allow the plantar structures to oppose and heal. Recently, however, Anderson27 reported on the surgical outcomes of 19 collegiate and professional athletes with grade III turf toe injury who underwent open repair of the ruptured capsuloligamentous complex. All but two athletes returned to their previous level of participation; this finding validates the use of more aggressive management in grade III turf toe injury.
Our preferred technique for managing complete rupture is direct primary repair of the plantar capsuloligamentous complex through a two-incision approach (ie, medial and plantar).28 An important aspect of recovery is appropriate player expectations regarding return to play. Following surgical repair, it may take 6 to 12 months before the player can return to full competition without the need for a protective orthosis or taping. The necessity of surgery appears to be sport- and position-dependent." The table from that article for grade 3 turf toe injuries recommends..."Long-term immobilization in a boot or a cast or surgical reconstruction. Return to play in 10-16 weeks, depending on sport and position. Taping or bracing likely needed."

If (a) this is in fact the diagnosis and prognosis, and (b) he can come back in 10 weeks (with bracing or taping), which does not seem unreasonable given Duke's medical personnel's history with treatment of foot problems and Kyrie's apparent toughness, he would be back for the second Miami game, which would allow him to play in 7 conference games. This would be enough time for him to get up to speed before the postseason.

[loran16]

If (a) this is in fact the diagnosis and prognosis, and (b) he can come back in 10 weeks (with bracing or taping), which does not seem unreasonable given Duke's medical personnel's history with treatment of foot problems and Kyrie's apparent toughness, he would be back for the second Miami game, which would allow him to play in 7 conference games. This would be enough time for him to get up to speed before the postseason.

So it'd be a boozer-like injury. We could deal.

[gam7]

So it'd be a boozer-like injury. We could deal.

Well, it's a bit different. I believe Boozer got hurt against Maryland in the second to last conference game of the season and only missed about three weeks. I believe he came back during the second weekend of the NCAA tournament. So, the timing is different with Kyrie's injury and the amount of time he is likely to miss is greater, but yes, we'd at least have him for some of the postseason if the optimistic timeline holds.

[billyj]

I hope we will have some better information or at least some kind of time table in the next two weeks.