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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Atlanta

    Tate Armstrong/Bob Verga

    even though there was no three point line he would have been great at it as would have Bob Verga. Beautiful to watch both in their time

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Absolutely

    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    This reminded me of a recent conversation I had with friend who is a Duke hater. He said that UNLV team was the best college basketball team ever and Duke only won because UNLV threw the game. My first reply was how could they be the best team ever if they threw games? That's a pretty big flaw isn't it? But after thinking about it I realized that even though it was a huge upset at the time, in hindsight, Duke was actually a better team. Hurley, Laettner and Hill are top 50 all-time players. UNLV's top 3 - Anthony, Johnson and Augmon don't compare to those 3 Duke players. Larry Johnson is the only player that would get any consideration as a top 50 or top 100 all time player and he probably would come in behind all three Duke players. Anderson Hunt was their next best player and Thomas Hill was Duke's 4th best. Hunt went undrafted following that year while Thomas Hill was taken in the second round. Granted Hill was a freshman but still a very good player. Duke had not proven their greatness yet and UNLV was thought to be unbeatable. While the Runnin Rebels were intimidating I think Duke exposed their weaknesses and was actually a better team. Sorry for hijacking the thread. I just thought I would throw that out and didn't want to start a whole new thread.
    A day or two after Duke beat Vegas, Michael Wilbon wrote a piece in the Washington Post making essentially the same point that you made (albeit Wilbon did it nineteen years earlier). He said that the Duke players were younger, but not lesser. He said that Grant Hill, Christian Laettner, and Bobby Hurley would have better success in the pros from the Vegas players. Even though Hurley's career was cut short, he was right.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    This reminded me of a recent conversation I had with friend who is a Duke hater. He said that UNLV team was the best college basketball team ever and Duke only won because UNLV threw the game. My first reply was how could they be the best team ever if they threw games? That's a pretty big flaw isn't it? But after thinking about it I realized that even though it was a huge upset at the time, in hindsight, Duke was actually a better team. Hurley, Laettner and Hill are top 50 all-time players. UNLV's top 3 - Anthony, Johnson and Augmon don't compare to those 3 Duke players. Larry Johnson is the only player that would get any consideration as a top 50 or top 100 all time player and he probably would come in behind all three Duke players. Anderson Hunt was their next best player and Thomas Hill was Duke's 4th best. Hunt went undrafted following that year while Thomas Hill was taken in the second round. Granted Hill was a freshman but still a very good player. Duke had not proven their greatness yet and UNLV was thought to be unbeatable. While the Runnin Rebels were intimidating I think Duke exposed their weaknesses and was actually a better team. Sorry for hijacking the thread. I just thought I would throw that out and didn't want to start a whole new thread.
    The UNLV team Duke beat in the final was a great team. I wouldn't call it the best team ever, but it is in the conversation for best team in the past 30 years. Duke was a better team than UNLV in the final game of the 1990-91 season. They were not the better team over the course of the year. The first list I came across ranking best players of all time ranks Larry Johnson just behind Bobby Hurley (31 and 32) and well ahead of Grant Hill (75). Laettner was at #8.
    http://www.americasbestonline.com/Cbasketball.htm

    I'm not saying this list is the be-all end-all, but Larry Johnson was the player of the year that year and a returning first-team all-american. I expect he would rank higher on that list but he played junior college and was only at UNLV for 2 years I believe. He was a phenomenal college player. Stacey Augmon was AP 1st team and the rest 2nd team and defensive player of the year for the third consecutive year. Laettner was consensus 2nd team AA. Laettner would make first team AA the next year and Hill and Hurley would make some AA teams and not others. 2 years later, Hurley was 1st team AA and Hill 2nd team and 3 years later Hill was 1st team AA.

    If you want to argue that if you took all the players from Duke and UNLV's teams and played them against each other in their primes, I think you could make a very convincing argument that Duke had the better team. If you are arguing that Duke 1990-91 with a Junior Laettner, Sophomore Hurley and Freshman Grant Hill was a better team than UNLV with a senior Larry Johnson, senior Augmon, senior Anthony, Junior Hunt after they had won the national title the year before, I would have to disagree. But, for one game, Duke was certainly the better team and deserved to win.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, North Carolina

    Duke didn't beat UNLV in the final.

    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    The UNLV team Duke beat in the final was a great team. I wouldn't call it the best team ever, but it is in the conversation for best team in the past 30 years. Duke was a better team than UNLV in the final game of the 1990-91 season.
    Forget Kansas and Ol' Roy?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Dallas

    Top 5 Three Point Shooters

    #1. Alaskan Assassin
    #2. JJ
    And then all the rest...

    Shane
    Bobby
    Jeff Capel

    Christian didn't shoot quite enough 3s to make this list for me although his percentage was better than all the guards on this list.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    The UNLV team Duke beat in the final was a great team. I wouldn't call it the best team ever, but it is in the conversation for best team in the past 30 years. Duke was a better team than UNLV in the final game of the 1990-91 season. They were not the better team over the course of the year. http://www.americasbestonline.com/Cbasketball.htm
    I think Duke had hit their stride that year by tournament time. They followed up the UNLV win by beating Kasas for the championship and the following year they were ranked #1 wire to wire. My point is that when game tipped off Duke was the better team even though most people didn't know it. UNLV was thought to be unbeatable and they were heavily favored but in reality they were beatable and Duke sent them home and never looked back.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    These two

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke76 View Post
    even though there was no three point line he would have been great at it as would have Bob Verga. Beautiful to watch both in their time
    will always show up on my all time favorite team. So put them down as being in the top 5-10 3point shooters even though they played before the game added the deep shot. Go Duke!
    Those two are Bob Verga and Tate Armstrong. Go Duke!
    Last edited by jv001; 12-06-2010 at 09:52 PM. Reason: omitted info

  8. #28
    Anytime you talk about "BEST" in Duke history, Laettners name needs to be at the top of whatever category you bring up!

  9. #29

    The Real List (best long range shooter)

    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    will always show up on my all time favorite team. So put them down as being in the top 5-10 3point shooters even though they played before the game added the deep shot. Go Duke!
    Those two are Bob Verga and Tate Armstrong. Go Duke!
    1. Bob Verga
    2. Tate Armstrong
    3. J.J. Redick
    4. Chip Engelland
    5. Christian Laettner

    Kudos to Trajan Langdon, Danny Ferry, Bobby Hurley, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, Jeff Mullins...Who did I miss? http://goduke.statsgeek.com/

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Toledo

    Forgot About Dre (Warning: Long)

    Oh, whatever, here's my list [of greatest three-point shots in Duke history]:

    10. Hurley @ Michigan, December '91
    9. Laettner @ LSU, 1992
    8. JJ vs. BC, 2006 ACC Tournament
    7. Scheyer vs. Baylor, 2010, late in game after rebounding missed free throw
    6. Williams @ Maryland, 2001, the one after he stole the inbounds pass
    5. Capel vs. unc in Cameron, 1995
    4. Trajan vs. Michigan State (his only three of the game I believe), 1999 regional semifinal
    3. Dunleavy's third of three straight vs. Arizona, 2001
    2. Hurley vs. Kentucky in overtime, 1992
    1. Hurley vs. Unlv, 1991
    Andre Dawkins.

    I've touched on this before, as have others, but I would argue that Andre’s back-to-back threes against Baylor late in the first half of the 2010 South Regional Final, at the precise instant the Bears were threatening to spurt Duke right out of the tournament in a style the Blue Devils invented, are among the biggest shots in our program's history. The momentum of that game had swiftly turned, and it wasn’t in favor of trident blue. Without those two threes, especially the second, which Andre lofted from deep in the left corner to stem a furious 17 to 5 Baylor run and rein the Bears to within three points right before intermission, I genuinely believe we never make it to Indianapolis and that the reawakening of the Duke mystique we are all enjoying so dearly these days instead remains benumbed, provisionally frozen in time. We all know how difficult national championships are to achieve. Look at Indiana, which was on top of the world in the 1970s and ‘80s, debatably the best program in the country during that time. They haven’t been close since. Who is to foretell fate?

    Without Andre’s timely summoning of Bobby Hurley, consider this.

    There is no fourth. There is no restored order. There is no 15th Final Four. There is no conversation of back-to-back national championships; there isn’t even talk of one. There is no air of dominance heading into the 2010-11 season that pervades over our latest team each night it takes the court, which is certainly lending to the confidence and resolve of this group of individuals in their pursuit of realizing something truly historic. (And before carving the net in Lucas Oil Stadium last April, we long ago had lost that mystique, that intimidation factor, that fear and reverence of D-U-K-E that for almost two decades had reigned supreme over all of college basketball.) There is no silencing of the Duke haters, which, I think, we can all agree had become unconscionably nettlesome, nor of the K has lost it crowd, some of whom were nestled within our own people. K doesn’t even the score with the Baron of the Bluegrass, Adolph Rupp, and reach that otherworldly status of four-time national champion coach, cementing his legacy as, at the very least, the game’s second most decorated coach ever. There is no satisfying upper-hand in the Duke-Carolina rivalry. There might not even be another go-around of Nolan Smith or Kyle Singler, who might have deemed their best chance at a title had passed with the graduation of that veteran cast – after all, among the reasons both noted for returning to Durham was to try and do something truly special by winning two straight championships. (That last point might be reaching, but, as previously surveyed, who truly is to bargain with providence?)

    Instead, Duke ends its season for a sixth straight year without an appearance in the Final Four and our stretch without a national championship extends to a decade (and, despite its recent disorder, that school down the road would still have two titles to our zero since Roy Williams took over in Chapel Hill, and God knows the insufferable nature of that). Duke remains, to the outside world, a pretender of the postseason, a once mighty program fraught by the vanishing ability of a fading legend. Jon Scheyer has a really good career at Duke, but not a truly great one, at least with regard to the parameters of winning by which players are often remembered. Brian Zoubek improved considerably near the end, but never lived up to the lofty potential; in no way does he reach the veneration he has since the win over Butler. Duke doesn’t currently have 21 straight victories, the longest streak in the country, a minor but inexorably important element of our restored power in the basketball universe. Think about the love we’ve gotten the past several months. We are once again the premier program in America, and that is a direct result of winning one monumentally important game in Houston on a cold spring day in late March and the events that followed.

    Remember, shortly before Andre, who had played sparingly the previous two months, invoked the fearlessness within his frostbitten veins to even take those two threes against Baylor, Brian Zoubek had taken a seat amid our coaches and walk-ons, temporarily rendered idle with three personal fouls. With Zoubek no longer attending the Duke interior, Baylor took advantage of open lanes to the basket for three quick drives for scores. We were shaken. Those of us watching precariously from home knew it, our fans in Houston knew it and our players and staff knew it. Timeout K. Then, seconds later, Tweety Carter sends home a transition three off the delivery of a behind-the-back pass, sending the green and yellow wave within Reliant Stadium into an intense, screaming surge. That last three-ball by Andre not only hushed an entire arena, but silenced a nationwide party that was on the verge of exploding. And think about that first shot, just a couple of minutes earlier. Andre pulled up and launched from a legitimate 26 feet, without hesitation. That's something J.J. Redick or Jason Williams does, not a 10-minute-per-game twelfth grader in braces barely removed from his 18th birthday.

    Of course, Andre’s consecutive triples against Baylor are just one of several key moments last season that ended in the culmination of a fourth banner suspending from Cameron Indoor’s bygone but lavishly appointed rafters. There was the emergence of the sleeping giant, Brian Zoubek; the Comeback in Coral Gables, in which the Devils trailed Miami by 17 at one point and 13 at the half but managed to will themselves to victory, keeping the dream of an all-important No. 1 seed alive (as we would come to find, that top seed turned out to be of the utmost importance in our journey to the Hoosier Heartland); Lance Thomas’ rebound and put-back slam in Houston in the waning moments of the Baylor game; Jon’s last minute three to hold off Georgia Tech in the ACC final; Zoubek’s tree-like help-side defense on Gordon Hayward’s 15-foot fallaway in the championship game’s closing seconds, and his intentionally missed free-throw. To explore that last Zoubek play a little closer, just think of the precision that intentionally missing such a shot in a moment of that magnitude necessitates; one unlucky toss to the left or right and Butler has the ball, time stopped, and all the clock in the world – nearly twice as many ticks of the clock as Christian Laettner had against Kentucky all those Marches ago – to do what Duke has done so many times before: score last in early spring.

    There is no question, however, that Andre’s judicious three-point shooting deep in the first half of that South Regional was the biggest play of Duke’s season to that point. Those shots don’t go down and the Blue Devil program, although certainly in great hands with star Kyrie Irving leading the show and a collection of extraordinary recruits on the way, is in an entirely different place today; an alternate reality I’m happy we’ll never have to live.

    OK, so apparently I really like Andre Dawkins. Forgive me, for I am a sick person.
    Last edited by Cameron; 12-07-2010 at 12:36 AM.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Toledo
    OK, so upon second glance, my post above really looks ridiculous. Haha. My apologies. I am currently drinking a cup of Starbucks and re-watching the Baylor game.

  12. #32
    Now thats funny I dont care who you are!

    But thinking back I remember when Johnny D played they had that short 3 point line that went inside the top of the key and anybody could make a 3 then! I think the 3 line should be no different than the NBA line and that would eliminate alot from the discussion cause even Redick struggles from the 3 in the NBA!

  13. #33

    Shooting percentages?

    There is only sporatic mention of shooting percentages. Does anyone have the career % for each of the main picks mentioned in the string.Clearly some guys faced more defensive pressure due to their prowess. Certainly JJ, Trajan and Shane stand out in my memory.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    There is only sporatic mention of shooting percentages. Does anyone have the career % for each of the main picks mentioned in the string.Clearly some guys faced more defensive pressure due to their prowess. Certainly JJ, Trajan and Shane stand out in my memory.
    This was my list:

    Redick shot .406 career in 1120 attempts
    JWill shot .393 in 797 attempts (3 years)
    Trajan shot .426 in 802 attempts
    Battier shot .416 in 592 attempts
    Laettner shot .485 in 163 attempts
    Scheyer shot .381 in 780 attempts

    So we have a variation of 10 full (38-48%) percentage points. Removing Laettner and Scheyer (Laettner is real outlier due to attempts) the consensus top 4 shooters are all within 4 percentage points (39-43%) of each other. I know some of the old guys can shoot, not debating that -- but looking strictly at 3 point shooter we have data on. I think its a bit presumptuous put pre-3pt line players on the list of great 3pt shooters.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by theAlaskanBear View Post
    This was my list:

    Redick shot .406 career in 1120 attempts
    JWill shot .393 in 797 attempts (3 years)
    Trajan shot .426 in 802 attempts
    Battier shot .416 in 592 attempts
    Laettner shot .485 in 163 attempts
    Scheyer shot .381 in 780 attempts

    So we have a variation of 10 full (38-48%) percentage points. Removing Laettner and Scheyer (Laettner is real outlier due to attempts) the consensus top 4 shooters are all within 4 percentage points (39-43%) of each other. I know some of the old guys can shoot, not debating that -- but looking strictly at 3 point shooter we have data on. I think its a bit presumptuous put pre-3pt line players on the list of great 3pt shooters.
    Don't forget Hurley.
    Careeer: 40.5% in 652 attempts
    Fresh: 35.7% in 115
    Soph: 40.4% in 188
    Jr: 42.1% in 140
    Sr: 42.1% in 209

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    I'll put my vote in for Chip Engelland, who shot .554 in 74 career attempts. Tom Emma was close with .436 in 55 attempts. They were seniors when they played just the one year with an experimental 3 point line.

    Both of these players were long range shooters, but Chip was particularly known for his sharpshooting skills. Had he attempted just one more 3 pointer, he would be sitting atop the Duke 3pt percentage list -- it requires a minimum of 75 attempts to be placed on that list.

    That list is:
    Code:
     1. Christian Laettner   79 -  163 .485
     2. Trajan Langdon      342 -  802 .426
     3. Shane Battier       246 -  592 .416
     5. J.J. Redick         457 - 1126 .406
     6. Bobby Hurley        264 -  652 .405
     7. Phil Henderson      128 -  320 .400
     8. Jeff Capel          220 -  553 .398
        Greg Paulus         210 -  527 .398
     9. Jason Williams      313 -  797 .393
    10. Daniel Ewing        217 -  554 .392
    (Yes, there is no #4 -- that's how it's listed on the goduke.com website.)

    Jim Suddath was another long range shooter that might have had a good 3 point shot if it existed when he played.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Great list

    Quote Originally Posted by Verga3 View Post
    1. Bob Verga
    2. Tate Armstrong
    3. J.J. Redick
    4. Chip Engelland
    5. Christian Laettner

    Kudos to Trajan Langdon, Danny Ferry, Bobby Hurley, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, Jeff Mullins...Who did I miss? http://goduke.statsgeek.com/
    I like this list for long range shooters. Chip is a good choice from the past. If I'm not mistaken Chip has taught shooting to many Duke guys. Seems like he helped Grant with his shooting. But remember my memory is not what it used to be. GoDuke!

  18. #38
    There's no question who is in my top 5, though the order of 1 through 5 could be juggled around a lot:

    1. Bob Verga
    2. Chip Engelland
    3. JJ Redick
    4. Tate Armstrong
    5. Trajan Langdon

    For an honorable mention, let me throw out one that hasn't been listed yet--Mark Alarie.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Back in the dirty Jerz
    I'd have to go with:

    1) JJ
    2) Langdon
    3) Battier
    4) Hurley
    5) Laettner

    The most memorable performance for me was Langdon's 7 three pointers against UNC with 28 total points in 1997. That victory over UNC was the shot across the bow that we were back and were about to challenge and eventually take over dominance in the ACC after having several down years and losing seven in a row to the Heels.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by theAlaskanBear View Post
    I think its a bit presumptuous put pre-3pt line players on the list of great 3pt shooters.
    I agree with this. I don't buy the argument of "well, a lot of their shots were taken from behind where the three-point line would be." Since that shot was only worth two points at the time, defenses had no added incentive to guard that shot any harder. You'd have to assume that they would be defended differently if the line existed.

    Now, if you're talking about how graceful their form was or what a thing of beauty it was to watch them release the ball, then okay, but any statistical comparison is inherently flawed.

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