Top 5 Dukies

[NSDukeFan]

I'll take a team of the guys who left early and who are generally snubbed in our lists (and I'll ignore pre1977 since I never saw those players and, anyway, for best players, I'd look to the modern era. not the players fault, but let's see a 6'3" forward dominate in 2010, and if you didn't allow African-American men to play, our current team would probably have 3 all Americans (wait, we already do ).

anyway...

brand, boozer, maggette, deng, williams in their primes would dominate hurley, jj, hill, battier, laettner. disagree? Bobby did set the assist record, but he was leading a team that included two of the best finishers in duke history, and the team was organized around him making assists for 4 years. I loved him, but jwill was a better player.

You are bringing up a whole different argument if you are talking who were the best pros that Duke ever produced. It depends on the discussion. Are you talking about the best players in their primes at Duke, or the best players in their primes in the NBA? Unfortunately, some of the players on your lists have had some injury problems in the pros, but, in my mind, that in no way diminishes their greatness at Duke. If you are talking about which Duke graduates are currrently scoring the most points in the NBA, I would agree with your argument. If the argument is anything but that, I would have to disagree. The interesting thing about your argument about Bobby having two of the best finishers ever, they would still be there in this scenario.

jj v maggette. there's a reason that one has fared better in the NBA. maggette would make it hard for jj to get off a shot. when confronted with really good individual defenders (as in the NBA and the NCAA tourney), jj became mortal. maggette became better.

By fared better in the NBA, do you mean scored more on losing teams? I expect when all is said and done, JJ has a very good chance of having a better pro career than Maggette. If you are talking about Duke careers than this is not even worth discussing.

deng v hill might be advantage grant, but not by much.

No offense to you or Luol, but this is a huge advantage anyway you slice it, unless you are looking at current ppg and then it might be close. Deng in his college prime never came close to what Hill was able to do in college. Deng in the pros has never been able to do what Hill was able to do in his prime and its not even close.

brand boozer v laettner battier. we love the latter guys and are generally silent about the former, but one group went on to play at an all star NBA level, while laettner and battier are best known for being great college players.

Brand and Boozer have each been two time NBA all-stars, while Laettner made one all-star game, before injuries limited him later in his career and Battier has only made all-Defensive team and not an all-star team. The reason everyone loves the latter guys is because they are two of the best players to have ever played for Duke, whereas Brand and Boozer were great players whose careers didn't reach the level of Battier and Laettner in part because they didn't stay the four years that Christian and Shane did. Not saying they made wrong choice, but that there is no doubt that Laettner and Battier had much better careers at Duke than Brand and Boozer and at their primes in college, Laettner and Battier would dominate Brand and Boozer. As far as the pros go, you may have an argument, but keep in mind Battier's teams have always done much better with him than without him and he has been a very solid pro for 10 years now. If you go purely on scoring, Brand and Boozer have been better pros. If you go beyond that, it becomes closer.

The mostly younger Duke players you mentioned were great at Duke and have had solid pro careers and are currently scoring more than the legends team you say they would dominate. In their college or professional primes, I strongly disagree with the side you have chosen, as I feel that individual scoring is not the sole criteria for team basketball success.

[jv001]

He was really good. Best bank shot from the outside I have ever seen, great rebounder, and he could really follow up his shot to get the rebound. Heyman got most of the hype but in retrospect I preferred Jeff's game. And he was natural two while Heyman was a three. Jeff Mullins was a three time NBA all star, a starter on an NBA championship team (1975) and scored over 13,000 NBA points.

Vic stole Mullins right out from under Kentucky's nose. Jeff being from Lexington, KY. He was also one of my favorites and personally I like Mullins better than Heyman. But not by much because Vic stole him(as Jim stated) away from unc. Both have to be mentioned in the conversation of greatest Duke players. Go Duke!

[hq2]

After tonight's first half performance id put Kyrie over Hurley and J Will

A little early for that yet. J Will was hands down the best guard in Duke history; if he had stayed four, he would have put the scoring record up so high no one would have ever touched it . Right now, Kyrie looks a little better than Hurley as a freshman, as he commits less turnovers and is a better shooter. Don't forget, however, that Hurley, even as a freshman, was the best playmaker in Duke history. Kyrie still isn't quite as good in that area yet.

[Indoor66]

But I definitely think things would have been different with a three-point line -- elongated defenses, more perimeter pressure, less open looks for sharpshooters -- and that it wouldn't be as cut and dry as "Bob Verga would have scored X-amount of points with the line."

At least this is what I came up with in my head over the past 10 minutes.

I think you are wrong. I was at the games. Verga could and did hit shots regularly from 23+ feet. Defenses were geared to stop him. He could beat you alone if you did not do that. If there had been a 3 point line, Verga and also Jack Marin would have scored many more points. Jack was a master of the corner jumper.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Vic stole Mullins right out from under Kentucky's nose. Jeff being from Lexington, KY. He was also one of my favorites and personally I like Mullins better than Heyman. But not by much because Vic stole him(as Jim stated) away from unc. Both have to be mentioned in the conversation of greatest Duke players. Go Duke!

Two major recruiting steals... Heyman deflected from Carolina and Frank McGuire, then Mullins scooped away from Kentucky and Adolph Rupp. Those were heady days when Vic Bubas signed on and went to work at Duke. Many of his innovations are still used by coaches today.

No matter how you analyze the coaches, recruiting, records and the like, Duke basketball history is full of the best. No wonder it's difficult to come up with the best five, no matter how best is defined.

[jimsumner]

Vic stole Mullins right out from under Kentucky's nose. Jeff being from Lexington, KY. He was also one of my favorites and personally I like Mullins better than Heyman. But not by much because Vic stole him(as Jim stated) away from unc. Both have to be mentioned in the conversation of greatest Duke players. Go Duke!

RE: Mullins. Sort of. Jeff actually grew up in Astoria, New York. His father worked for IBM and was transferred to Lexington when Jeff was in high school. The point being, Mullins didn't grow up a UK fan.

Rupp did very much want him and even called on the governor to help in his recruitment. But Mullins' was turned off by Rupp's heavy-handed recruitment of Jon Speaks, a high school teammate a year ahead of Mullins. Rupp offered Speaks a scholarship. When Speaks asked for a day or two to think about it, Rupp went off on him, telling him that no one turned down an offer to play for Adolph Rupp. The offer was withdrawn.

Speaks ended up at NC State. During that recruitment, Mullins got to know a young NCSU assistant. Guy by the name of Bubas.

We know how that turned out.

[jv001]

RE: Mullins. Sort of. Jeff actually grew up in Astoria, New York. His father worked for IBM and was transferred to Lexington when Jeff was in high school. The point being, Mullins didn't grow up a UK fan.

Rupp did very much want him and even called on the governor to help in his recruitment. But Mullins' was turned off by Rupp's heavy-handed recruitment of Jon Speaks, a high school teammate a year ahead of Mullins. Rupp offered Speaks a scholarship. When Speaks asked for a day or two to think about it, Rupp went off on him, telling him that no one turned down an offer to play for Adolph Rupp. The offer was withdrawn.

Speaks ended up at NC State. During that recruitment, Mullins got to know a young NCSU assistant. Guy by the name of Bubas.

We know how that turned out.

Thanks Jim. I'd not heard the story about Mullin's recruitment. Guess Rupp had a high view of himself. Sure glad it turned out that way and Mullins got to know Vic Bubas. Go Duke!

[The Gordog]

Williams scored more points in 3 years than Hurley in 4.

I guess we are using different criteria. To me the best means best player at the peak moment of their college career.

He was more explosive and more likely to carry the team.

I've actually changed my mind to Williams in recent years. I just think Williams was unguardable. But damn if Hurley's 3 vs. Vegas wasnt huuuuuuuuuuge.

Perhaps, but one guy can be stopped by a great defender. When your PG can set up anyone so perfectly and can hit the open jumper if you let him, the whole team becomes unguardable.

As for JJ, the whole offense ran through him so he should have scored that much. Great shooter but needed lots of help to get his points.

I'll address that in a minute.

[johnb]

Are you talking about the best players in their primes at Duke, or the best players in their primes in the NBA?

I was not talking about what they did in college but who--in their primes--were the best players. That could be college or pro, but I'd guess it would generally be when they were around 27.

I rarely watch pro games and much prefer college/Duke games, but there is no doubt that it's harder (and a somewhat different skillset) to excel in the pros. If you were an NBA GM and somehow could magically pick Duke players who were all graduating at the same time with the understanding that you'd have them under contract for 5 solid years and with the knowledge of how they would turn out and with the knowledge that none would get seriously injured, I think they would steer clear of the cluster of pre-1975 guys who competed only against white players (though I'm including Mullins because he might be an exeption) and have a top 6 that would look something like

Hill
Brand
JWill
Boozer
Mullins
Laettner

Obviously, this can be debated, but do you really think, for example, that NBA teams would pay more in the current free agent market for Battier than Brand or Boozer? Battier did more for Duke, and he certainly deserves all the praise that he gets, and defense tends to get underrated, but I'd still say that Brand and Boozer are seen as better pros.

If you'd want the list of the 5 or 6 players that I'd like on my team so that I could hang out with them and perhaps recreate a little Duke magic, that might be a fairly different set of players, but the first set (Hill, Brand, etc) has to play against the Lakers and the Celtics, while our stars put up most of their numbers against teams composed of players who simply weren't as good as the guys on our teams.

[jv001]

I was not talking about what they did in college but who--in their primes--were the best players. That could be college or pro, but I'd guess it would generally be when they were around 27.

I rarely watch pro games and much prefer college/Duke games, but there is no doubt that it's harder (and a somewhat different skillset) to excel in the pros. If you were an NBA GM and somehow could magically pick Duke players who were all graduating at the same time with the understanding that you'd have them under contract for 5 solid years and with the knowledge of how they would turn out and with the knowledge that none would get seriously injured, I think they would steer clear of the cluster of pre-1975 guys who competed only against white players (though I'm including Mullins because he might be an exeption) and have a top 6 that would look something like

Hill
Brand
JWill
Boozer
Mullins
Laettner

Obviously, this can be debated, but do you really think, for example, that NBA teams would pay more in the current free agent market for Battier than Brand or Boozer? Battier did more for Duke, and he certainly deserves all the praise that he gets, and defense tends to get underrated, but I'd still say that Brand and Boozer are seen as better pros.

Well I thought we were discussing college careers and not nba careers. In that case, Johnny Dawkins should be one of the best. JD had a good pro-career. The G-Man had a good pro career, Mullins had a good pro career. Marin had a good pro-career. Still no way to name the 5 best. Go Duke!

[The Gordog]

While factually correct, I would disagree with your weighting of its signifiacance. JJ's supporting cast consisted of Sheldon and no other NBA level players. J-Will OTOH had Shane, Boozer, Dunleavy, and Duhon. Every starter on that team has started in the NBA. He hardly "carried" us.

Over the course of his four seasons at Duke, Redick played with seven future NBA players, Dahntay Jones, Chris Duhon, Luol Deng, Shavlik Randolph, Shelden [note the spelling] Williams, DeMarcus Nelson, and Josh McRoberts.

Note that Dahntay and Ewing also played with JWill in 2002.

Neither Nelson nor Randolph had careers of any distinction and Ewing only lasted a couple of years. But McRoberts is an NBA starter, Deng is very close to star level and Duhon and Jones have been NBA starters.

So, the difference may not be as stark as suggested.

Good points, however, I responding to the idea that JJ's post season performance is so lacking that it DQs him from consideration. Let's face it, when people say that they are talking about 2006. ANd we are considering how good they were at the peak of their powers at Duke, so that means 2006. All of the palyers you mentioned except Shelden [sorry about the blunder last time, Shel] and Josh were gone by then. It has taken Josh 4.5 years since then to become a legit (not just kept around based on potential) NBA player so I do apologize for forgetting him.

JJ got better every year in spite of the erosion of talent around him leading to constant double and later triple-teaming. LSU's success at hacking him to the ground nearly every play should not, IMHO, detract from his legacy. That's all I'm saying.

[Indoor66]

Well I thought we were discussing college careers and not nba careers. In that case, Johnny Dawkins should be one of the best. JD had a good pro-career. The G-Man had a good pro career, Mullins had a good pro career. Marin had a good pro-career. Still no way to name the 5 best. Go Duke!

Heck, at one point in his career, Jack Marin was a one-for-one trade for Elvin Hayes!

[superdave]

Good points, however, I responding to the idea that JJ's post season performance is so lacking that it DQs him from consideration. Let's face it, when people say that they are talking about 2006. ANd we are considering how good they were at the peak of their powers at Duke, so that means 2006. All of the palyers you mentioned except Shelden [sorry about the blunder last time, Shel] and Josh were gone by then. It has taken Josh 4.5 years since then to become a legit (not just kept around based on potential) NBA player so I do apologize for forgetting him.

JJ got better every year in spite of the erosion of talent around him leading to constant double and later triple-teaming. LSU's success at hacking him to the ground nearly every play should not, IMHO, detract from his legacy. That's all I'm saying.

JJ also fell to Michigan State in 2005 as the best player on Duke his junior year. Two years leading the team, two Sweet 16 exits. That means something big to me when thinking about the pecking order.

[Indoor66]

JJ also fell to Michigan State in 2005 as the best player on Duke his junior year. Two years leading the team, two Sweet 16 exits. That means something big to me when thinking about the pecking order.

It's a five man game. You have to look at who was around him. No one can do it alone - check out Pete Maravich's career.

[superdave]

It's a five man game. You have to look at who was around him. No one can do it alone - check out Pete Maravich's career.

I certainly get that, but think about Laettner, Hill or Dawkins on 2006 Duke. Different outcome? A Final Four? I do recall arguing heading into the 2006 post-season that Duke should run the offense more through Shelden because college opponents were less likely to stop him in the post than Redick in the backcourt. We were not a great team that year in spite of the gaudy record. Thin bench, young rotation otuside JJ/Shel/Dock , etc.

[Mal]

It's a five man game. You have to look at who was around him. No one can do it alone - check out Pete Maravich's career.

Fair enough, but then again, Grant in 1994. I know it's easier to game plan for stopping a sharpshooter who's the 1 and 1A offensive options on his team than it is a swingman or a point guard, and I vividly recall screaming at the TV about all the jersey grabbing and hip-checking on the baseline that JJ had to endure without getting a whistle in a few NCAA games. But the unfortunate fact remains that during his four years, we beat one team with better than a 7 seed in the NCAA's, and failed to make it past the Sweet 16 three times. The trip to the Final Four in '04 was, at least in my memory, a lot more about Luol and Duhon than it was the sophomore Redick. And, if memory serves, he had awful shooting performances in at least two of those four tournament losses (one was as a freshman, but still, think of Capel or Hurley or many others and their freshman tourney performances). You can't lay that all on him, and when the guy was on he was, I would submit, more "fun to watch" than any other player in Duke history. But facts is facts, and that lack of ever putting the team on his back in the postseason is enough for me to leave him off any "all-time" list limited to 5 names.

Battier, Williams, Hill, Laettner, Dawkins for me. In no particular order other than Laettner at the top.

[Indoor66]

I certainly get that, but think about Laettner, Hill or Dawkins on 2006 Duke. Different outcome? A Final Four? I do recall arguing heading into the 2006 post-season that Duke should run the offense more through Shelden because college opponents were less likely to stop him in the post than Redick in the backcourt. We were not a great team that year in spite of the gaudy record. Thin bench, young rotation otuside JJ/Shel/Dock , etc.

Except that Shelden would be collapsed upon and have to look to pass out and if JJ was covered, then what? Of course, add Laetner or Hill to the mix and it is a different outcome.

If a hop toad had longer legs, it wouldn't bump its butt.

[Cameron]

I think you are wrong. I was at the games. Verga could and did hit shots regularly from 23+ feet. Defenses were geared to stop him. He could beat you alone if you did not do that. If there had been a 3 point line, Verga and also Jack Marin would have scored many more points. Jack was a master of the corner jumper.

Which is precisely the reason for introducing my last post with the caveat that I was not a witness to that era. Your first-hand accounts are obviously of much more value to this particular discussion, so thanks for sharing.

However, I would still contend that the advent of the three-point line did, in fact, change the way coaches approached the defensive side of the game and that, with the extra point being awarded for the deeper shots, a more concerted effort was placed on stopping it. Again, Duke has for years placed the utmost importance on defending the three. We're the best in the business. But, as I said, I didn't see Bob Verga, or Jeff Mullins, or even Johnny Dawkins play one single minute of live basketball. So, from my end, I guess it's purely conjecture and I'll take your word for it.

I know Redick wasn't your battle, Indoor, but in terms of J.J., no matter what, he stays on my list.

[Scoring Point]

Which is precisely the reason for introducing my last post with the caveat that I was not a witness to that era. Your first-hand accounts are obviously of much more value to this particular discussion, so thanks for sharing.

However, I would still contend that the advent of the three-point line did, in fact, change the way coaches approached the defensive side of the game and that, with the extra point being awarded for the deeper shots, a more concerted effort was placed on stopping it. Again, Duke has for years placed the utmost importance on defending the three. We're the best in the business. But, as I said, I didn't see Bob Verga, or Jeff Mullins, or even Johnny Dawkins play one single minute of live basketball. So, from my end, I guess it's purely conjecture and I'll take your word for it.

I know Redick wasn't your battle, Indoor, but in terms of J.J., no matter what, he stays on my list.

I doubt anyone who saw both Johnny Dawkins and JJ play a lot would pick JJ over Johnny. Johnny was an exceptional all around player - outstanding defender and penetrator, above average passer, finisher and rebounder (for his size), as well as an underrated jumpshooter.

Johnny averaged 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg and 1.3 spg for his career, with a 1.34 assist/TO ratio. Comparable figures for JJ were 2.7 rpg, 2.2 apg and 1.1 spg, with a 1.04 A/TO ratio. Dawkins' numbers were also compiled at a time when the overall talent level in the ACC (and college basketball generally) was much higher, when K was still developing his coaching chops and the program itself was still on the rise.

[Mcluhan]

Johnny averaged 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg and 1.3 spg for his career, with a 1.34 assist/TO ratio. Comparable figures for JJ were 2.7 rpg, 2.2 apg and 1.1 spg, with a 1.04 A/TO ratio. Dawkins' numbers were also compiled at a time when the overall talent level in the ACC (and college basketball generally) was much higher, when K was still developing his coaching chops and the program itself was still on the rise.

Glad to see somebody repping Johnny D here! Sheesh.

1. Coach K's most important recruit.
2. Set a Duke career scoring record which stood for 20 years without use of the three point line .
3. A much more consistent player than J-Will who, for all his brilliance, rarely put together two good halves.
4. Much better leader than J-Will. The undisputed leader of a 37-3 team.
5. Averaged 14ppg as a starter on a 53 win NBA team.