Duke 110, Colgate 58 Post-Game Thread

[Kedsy]

Yes, they'll get better, but I'd have to say unless we see a Zoubs-like rebirth from Miles (which is always possible) it's hard to see him doing much more. This is his third year and he hasn't improved all that much, so I wouldn't expect too much more from him. With Mason, who knows. There are lots of possibilities, but still no consistency. Hopefully, by late season, he might be good for a steady 8-10 points, 8-10 rebounds against quality comp. Actually, I'd say if the two could give us maybe 12 or 14 points together at the 5, that would be enough. We have so many other quality scoring options, as long as they board and defend well, we don't need them to do much scoring. We should be fine.

I agree that 12 or 14 points combined would be enough. However, I think hoping Mason can get 8 to 10 rebounds a game against good competition is more than a bit of a stretch. Last year in the entire ACC only six players topped 8 rebounds per game (Al-Farouq Aminu (the only one who got as many as 10), Ed Davis, Gani Lawal, Derrick Favors, Trevor Booker, and Jordan Williams), and that was against all competition, good and bad. Not only that, all of them averaged 30+ minutes except Davis and Favors (and they both averaged 27 and were lottery picks), while Mason so far is averaging 19 minutes and by the end of the season might be up to 24 or so, but probably not more. There is almost no chance Mason averages 8+ rebounds a game this year.

As far as seeing no improvement from Miles in three years, wow. I know we had a lot of improved players from 2008-09 to 2009-10, but you could make a decent argument that Miles was the most improved player we had between 08-09 and 09-10 (and if he wasn't, it was only because Nolan, Z, Lance, and Jon all improved so much as well). If you think Miles is the same player we saw when he was a freshman, then I don't know what to say to you.

[hq2]

If you think Miles is the same player we saw when he was a freshman, then I don't know what to say to you.

No, he's gotten better, just not good enough. As a freshman he was almost a non-factor. Now, he's a decent bench player. That's a significant improvement. However, he was not then, and is not now a reliable post scoring player. If he were going to have shown he could do that on a consistent basis, he should be doing it by about now. I'm not saying it won't happen at all; however, if he hasn't shown it by now, I don't think it's all that likely it will happen.

In the end, I don't think it makes much of a difference. The rest of the team (Mason included) is so good that we don't need many points from him anyway. All he needs to do is rebound and play adequate defense, and he can do that. That's all that matters.

[AZLA]

Agreed, that's a bit of a harsh statement to say Miles hasn't improved. Any NCAA coach would be thrilled to have either Plumlee on their team. In fact, they're right on track and now have room to come into their own. I fully expect both of them will season, much like Zoubs did mid-season last year in his role. Obviously they bring an entirely different dynamic. I'm a big fan of the Plumlees and fully anticipate a game where one or both of them, get really physical in the middle against a power opponent and turn in a career performance. I'm hoping its against Michigan State. They turn out tough rebounders with Izzo's "war" drill -- and Duke's going to need the Plumlees to go to war inside as well. Can't wait for that game.

[Newton_14]

No, he's gotten better, just not good enough. As a freshman he was almost a non-factor. Now, he's a decent bench player. That's a significant improvement. However, he was not then, and is not now a reliable post scoring player. If he were going to have shown he could do that on a consistent basis, he should be doing it by about now. I'm not saying it won't happen at all; however, if he hasn't shown it by now, I don't think it's all that likely it will happen.

In the end, I don't think it makes much of a difference. The rest of the team (Mason included) is so good that we don't need many points from him anyway. All he needs to do is rebound and play adequate defense, and he can do that. That's all that matters.

Miles started 25 games last year playing the majority of the minutes at the center position during that time, on a team that went 21-4 during his starts and went on to win all of the championships available. He is certainly better than a "decent bench player". K has even stated 2 times this year that Miles was not demoted and that he was tinkering with line ups. People put way too much emphasis on stats, mainly scoring points.

Miles has not been asked to be a "reliable post scorer". We have never made it a point of emphasis to post him up and feed him the ball on a regular basis. Therefore, it isn't exactly fair to criticize him for not doing something he hasn't been asked to do.

We have plenty of scoring on this team. If Miles gives us 8 to 10 points a game that is a bonus. Against Colgate he went 4 of 6 from the floor and finished with 9 points, 8 rebounds, 1 Block, and 3 steals in 24 minutes in a game where the team scored 110 points. Yet all people want to talk about is that he fouled out and label him a decent bench player.

We are right back in the Lance/Zoubs syndrome where if a big guy does not get 20 and 10 then obviously they can't play a lick and should be replaced.

[COYS]

One last comment on this game. We got some easy buckets off of inbounds plays continuing a trend that we've had all season (and some of last season as well). In addition, Nolan and Kyle missed a few open jumpers off of inbounds plays that I think they'll start to knock down. This is a lost art among many teams and Coach K has got to be excited at the inbounds play execution of the team so far. I'll be interested to see if this continues to be a source of easy buckets against quality competition. If so, it will play a big role in keeping our offense efficient against tougher competition.

[MChambers]

Personally I think folks are making way too much of the Plumlee's fouling. Mason did not have "5 silly fouls 80 feet from the basket" last night. He had 1 bad foul that being the 5th. He hedged out and made the mistake of reaching in.

His 4th foul came on a hustle play off a long offensive rebound. Mason knocked the ball away from the Colgate player in the far corner, the ref called a foul, and K went nuts. On the ref, not Mason. The other 3 fouls came during interior scrum's, and one of those 3 should have actually been called on Kyle. I had a good view from where I was sitting and Mason did not foul the guy there.

Miles actually played deep into the game with no foul trouble and got hit with a few quick one's, again, mostly on hustle plays. He only had a couple where he was caught out of position or taking the wrong angle. He also had a couple of good blocks and played good interior defense most of the night. Mason also played good interior defense for the most part.

They certainly have room for improvement but Mason especially has improved a lot since last year.

The thing is, Duke is playing highly intense in your face defense 1 thru 5. K not only has the guards and wings pressing their man everywhere, the bigs are doing the same thing. This early in the season that kind of style will lead to more fouls than normal. Also having the depth we have will lend itself to taking more risks.

Let's see how they do next week when the competition stiffens. Given that they stayed in the rotation all of last year on a National Title team, they have experience against the toughest of opponents. They will make mistakes along the way but should get better and better as we move forward. Give them time. We are only 3 games into the season and neither the Plumlee's nor the team itself are anywhere near a finished product.

I agree with the thrust of your post, but feel obliged to point out that one foul (I think the 3rd) was 90 feet from the basket and very dumb. Gaudio immediately pointed it out.

Still, I'm optimistic about Mason's progress.

How about those two-hand overhead outlet passes? He looked like Wes Unseld out there!

[COYS]

How about those two-hand overhead outlet passes? He looked like Wes Unseld out there!

Nice observation! We've had some great fast break points this year that were made possible not by Irving's speed, but by Mason making a great outlet pass to guard who then makes another outlet pass to another guard who nails the wideopen three. This is one of Mason's strengths and combined with Irving's quickness makes Duke a threat to hit the opposition on the break in a variety of ways.

[juise]

Did anybody catch Andre's comments from the game?

On the depth at the guard spot and the group's ability to play no matter who is on the court:
"We feel like we're one of the better perimeters in the country. Each guy coming off the bench, we don't' look at ourselves as bench players. We're just basketball players. We come in and we know that we have to keep the energy level up and the level of play up. They'll pull us out and put Nolan [Smith] right back in. Like you saw last year, Nolan played 40 minutes. We know we need to do our job because they'll put Nolan right back in."

I wasn't quite sure what to make of the underlined portion. I don't think that Andre is saying that he has to look over his shoulder or that he's frustrated with his role. I think he's saying that Nolan is conditioned well enough to play the whole game, so his level of play/energy has to be somewhere near Nolan's if he's going to stay on the floor. Fortunately, Andre has shown a great improvement in multiple aspects of his game over the summer. I'm looking forward to his contribution and continued improvement this season.

[COYS]

Did anybody catch Andre's comments from the game?



I wasn't quite sure what to make of the underlined portion. I don't think that Andre is saying that he has to look over his shoulder or that he's frustrated with his role. I think he's saying that Nolan is conditioned well enough to play the whole game, so his level of play/energy has to be somewhere near Nolan's if he's going to stay on the floor. Fortunately, Andre has shown a great improvement in multiple aspects of his game over the summer. I'm looking forward to his contribution and continued improvement this season.

I definitely don't think it's a "look over the shoulder" comment. He's saying that Nolan is a champion and fully capable of playing 40 minutes per game. If he wants to earn minutes, he has to play at a high level. I think that's a pretty accurate assessment. The fact that he and Seth are earning minutes and performing at a high level just shows how well they are playing.

[Kedsy]

Did anybody catch Andre's comments from the game?



I wasn't quite sure what to make of the underlined portion. I don't think that Andre is saying that he has to look over his shoulder or that he's frustrated with his role. I think he's saying that Nolan is conditioned well enough to play the whole game, so his level of play/energy has to be somewhere near Nolan's if he's going to stay on the floor. Fortunately, Andre has shown a great improvement in multiple aspects of his game over the summer. I'm looking forward to his contribution and continued improvement this season.

I agree with you, I don't think he was saying he's frustrated. I think he was saying the non-starters all know they can't let up for a moment while they're playing because there's an All-American sitting on the bench who is anxious to get on the court and if they don't play their hardest he'll come back in sooner rather than later.

[dball]

I agree with you, I don't think he was saying he's frustrated. I think he was saying the non-starters all know they can't let up for a moment while they're playing because there's an All-American sitting on the bench who is anxious to get on the court and if they don't play their hardest he'll come back in sooner rather than later.

This is the way I interpreted it as well. Nolan is perfectly capable of playing all 40 minutes so minutes are not guaranteed. He (and Seth) have to play at that same high level.

Andre has really impressed me this year. I'm reminded of the Connecticut game last year where he played "pretty good" defense and scored in double figures. He showed such promise then and I feel he (understandably) really was knocked back after the accident.

This year his defense is strong and he's shooting with confidence. Really think he's played well so far.

[dball]

As far as seeing no improvement from Miles in three years, wow. I know we had a lot of improved players from 2008-09 to 2009-10, but you could make a decent argument that Miles was the most improved player we had between 08-09 and 09-10 (and if he wasn't, it was only because Nolan, Z, Lance, and Jon all improved so much as well). If you think Miles is the same player we saw when he was a freshman, then I don't know what to say to you.

I agree. Reading some of the negative comments about Miles confuses me. It's like I must be watching a different game. Miles has played really solidly defensively while contributing what is asked offensively.

[MChambers]

I agree. Reading some of the negative comments about Miles confuses me. It's like I must be watching a different game. Miles has played really solidly defensively while contributing what is asked offensively.

Agreed. I've been happy with Miles's play and he's obviously a lot over the last two years, even if Duke's big man coach isn't a seven footer.

[NSDukeFan]

Did anybody catch Andre's comments from the game?



I wasn't quite sure what to make of the underlined portion. I don't think that Andre is saying that he has to look over his shoulder or that he's frustrated with his role. I think he's saying that Nolan is conditioned well enough to play the whole game, so his level of play/energy has to be somewhere near Nolan's if he's going to stay on the floor. Fortunately, Andre has shown a great improvement in multiple aspects of his game over the summer. I'm looking forward to his contribution and continued improvement this season.

I didn't get to see the ESPN All-Access segments, but did watch the highlights that were posted on the website and this reminds me of what coach K was saying at one point to Ryan, I believe. When he comes in the game (and I assume he says this to all the subs) they have to increase the level of play, be a contributor, talk more, do something to improve the team while they are out there. I wonder if Andre was speaking to a certain point about this. He (and Seth and whoever else comes off the bench) need to contribute especially on the perimeter, as Kyle and Nolan can play all day, so they are not going into the game to provide minutes, but to make an impact. That's my interpretation, without any inside knowledge.