Duke 110, Colgate 58 Post-Game Thread

[jimsumner]

Didn't see the game, but caught the Miles reverse dunk on the top 10 plays. I was watching Marshall Plumlee here in Arden.

Didn't have a chance to watch Sports Center. But I would have expected Kyrie to make it. I'm thinking of a second-half play. He grabs the defensive rebound, goes coast-to-coast, weaving through traffic, behind the back with his dribble and finishes with a reverse lay-up in traffic.

A seriously impressive move. So fast, yet so completely in control. The epitome of the Wooden axiom, be quick but don't hurry.

[ncexnyc]

Since I was at work last night and my ESPN3 feed just isn't cutting it this morning, I will base my comments on the Rivals.com play-by-play for the game I followed last night.

The team seemed rather lackluster in the 1st half. From what I could tell both Dawkins and Kelly played well in the 1st stanza, but the stats for everyone else were really poor.
The shooting %'s for Nolan and Kyle were horrific and the Plumlee brothers appeared to be AWOL. I even commented on the in game thread that they had two rebounds between them.

It appears that K must of had a few choice words for the team at halftime, as they came out blistering hot to start the 2nd half. It appears that Kyrie took the game over and Mason started becoming a factor. Nolan's shooting seemed to pick-up as did Seth's.

Three games into the season and I think the results are as to be expected considering who we've played. The next few games should definitely give us a better picture of just how good this team really is. I want to see how we respond to the first solid punch in the face an opponent lands, if one is actually landed.

[TaiAdmiral]

Colgate highlights from us. Enjoy:

http://www.crazie-talk.com/2010/11/2...n-17-oop-city/

[DevilHorns]

Didn't have a chance to watch Sports Center. But I would have expected Kyrie to make it. I'm thinking of a second-half play. He grabs the defensive rebound, goes coast-to-coast, weaving through traffic, behind the back with his dribble and finishes with a reverse lay-up in traffic.

A seriously impressive move. So fast, yet so completely in control. The epitome of the Wooden axiom, be quick but don't hurry.

The best part of that play is that the reverse lay-up is a save... it's due to him losing control of the slippery ball in mid-air.

He has the talent and ability to gather his movements in milliseconds while understanding that the hoop is now moving above him, requiring him to do a reverse lay-up. Many a point guard would have dinged the ball off the rim still trying to force a regular lay-up.

You can't teach that.

[MChambers]

I'm worried... 13 minutes... Colgate???

It's going to be tough for him to get good minutes when we need him against stiffer competition. What's going to happen when he has to try and contain Tracy Smith, Jordan Williams, or Heaven forbid Sullinger.

Just watched the replay on espn3.com. Nice to have that option.

I actually thought Mason played well, like DBR said. He rebounded well, looked at lot better at the free throw line (one was right on line, just long). He didn't take any "why not3s". He passed well, as he always does.

As far as the fouls go, two were really dumb, just like last year. I'll concede that. It's funny because in the Miami game he played 24 minutes without committing a foul. The other three were largely a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm betting he learns to cut down on his fouls.

Kelly looked good. I do think there's an open question about him defending a good big man down low, but he's a smart player, so he's got a chance. And the ball pressure on the guards makes feeding the post difficult.

I thought Miles looked good. (Let's give him credit for his reverse, his left-handed layup, and his hook shot.) I can understand the frustration that some have expressed with both Miles and Mason, because some of their mistakes are so correctable. Also, they are both amazing athletes, but they're not polished basketball players yet. I'm confident they'll improve significantly as the season goes on.

Curry played very well, except for his shot. And even given an off night, he's shooting 50% from 3. (Check out the statistics on ESPN -- we're got four players shooting 50% or more from 3 point range. Smith and especially Singer are actually dragging the team percentage down. How cool is that?)

Irving is the real deal. He makes such good, quick decisions with the ball. He shoots threes. He defends. He's got an unbelievable handle. Wow.

Dawkins really has improved. I was a little worried about his playing time coming in to the season, but no more.

Hairston had some nice moves, but struggled some on defense and at the line. Thornton looked good. I think they'll both be valuable in some key games this year, even if it's only for five minutes.

I haven't been this excited about a Duke team since at least 2001, maybe 1999 or even 1992. I'll leave the worrying to the coaches.

[jacone21]

...
Yes the skills are there, but I point you to JWill and Will Avery to look at how a freshman PG needs to learn to play the game at the right speed. Both of those guys became much better PGs once they learned that their speed and quickness could be used at specific times to the greatest effect. They didn't need to go 100mph every play with the ball in their hands. Kyrie has not learned this yet, but he will.

...

That's the thing I've been noticing about Kyrie. He does appear to have learned that already.

The series around the 8:30 mark proves it. First he gets the assist to Nolan for a 3, who blows him a kiss in return, btw. Then Kyrie gets the next rebound, goes 100 mph to the other end and scores. Then, he gets the outlet pass on the next possession. He has an opportunity to run 100 mph, but the defense is back. So he waits... waits... and hits the trailer, Ryan for another assist. 8-0 run. Perfect decision making on 3 consecutive plays.

I know he's going to have some ups and downs, but Kyrie is the real deal.

[uh_no]

I have a feeling that its gonna come down to Sullinger or Irving as freshman of the year. But its still early. I love this new high pace offense from our Devils.

wait...i thought SI already named barnes as the best freshman of all time...

[Kedsy]

I think he has. He is better than Miles right now and is a better weapon. NO OFFENSE to Miles, I love him, but Ryan is just playing better ball right now. In fact, I will go out a bit on a limb and say he is the best of the bigs right now, although Mason had a very good game last night.

I voted for Ryan for MOTM; I'm a big fan. But I wouldn't say he's locked down the starting gig just yet. He only played 16 minutes to Miles's 24, and Miles played very strong defense, had a slightly better +/- per 40 and corralled 8 rebounds (although his per 40 rebound rate was only a little better than Ryan's, 13.0 to 12.5). So I don't think we've seen the end of the competition for the 5 spot.

I'm worried... 13 minutes... Colgate???

It's going to be tough for him to get good minutes when we need him against stiffer competition. What's going to happen when he has to try and contain Tracy Smith, Jordan Williams, or Heaven forbid Sullinger.

Well, first of all, Mason has for the most part been guarding the other team's "4," and all the people you've named are "5"s, meaning Miles or Ryan would be guarding them. Second, Mason didn't get his fouls trying to stop a bruiser from taking a strong post move to the hoop. Colgate didn't have any bruisers. IIRC, two of them were at the perimeter and one was in the backcourt. For both reasons, your question seems irrelevant.

I don't think you can extrapolate anything from the Colgate game. I suggest we wait and see how Mason plays against the stiffer competition over the next couple of weeks before we start wringing our hands.

[Gthoma2a]

Kyrie will have Freshman of the Year once we start playing decent competition. He gets the luxory of sitting down for extended periods of time with this team. We are too deep for him to fully shine yet. Once we get to teams that we don't blow out (as badly), we will get to leave him on the court longer, and then he will shine as the star freshman of the season. I think he already has, but there is a limited basis for my claim considering how easily we are winning.

[Newton_14]

Since I was at work last night and my ESPN3 feed just isn't cutting it this morning, I will base my comments on the Rivals.com play-by-play for the game I followed last night.

The team seemed rather lackluster in the 1st half. From what I could tell both Dawkins and Kelly played well in the 1st stanza, but the stats for everyone else were really poor.
The shooting %'s for Nolan and Kyle were horrific and the Plumlee brothers appeared to be AWOL. I even commented on the in game thread that they had two rebounds between them.

It appears that K must of had a few choice words for the team at halftime, as they came out blistering hot to start the 2nd half. It appears that Kyrie took the game over and Mason started becoming a factor. Nolan's shooting seemed to pick-up as did Seth's.

Three games into the season and I think the results are as to be expected considering who we've played. The next few games should definitely give us a better picture of just how good this team really is. I want to see how we respond to the first solid punch in the face an opponent lands, if one is actually landed.

I have not posted my game thoughts yet, but trust me, the game went nothing like you read into it from the play by play. Duke came out incredibly focused and played smothering defense. Kyrie hit 3 early 3's, and there was nothing at all wrong with Kyle and Nolan's play. Good looks that rimmed out. Kelly played really well also. Really no kid played badly in the early going.

[InSpades]

Kyrie will have Freshman of the Year once we start playing decent competition. He gets the luxory of sitting down for extended periods of time with this team. We are too deep for him to fully shine yet. Once we get to teams that we don't blow out (as badly), we will get to leave him on the court longer, and then he will shine as the star freshman of the season. I think he already has, but there is a limited basis for my claim considering how easily we are winning.

I definitely think Kyrie is kind of just letting the game flow right now. It's sort of what I see from Nolan and Kyle as well. That "I could take over but let's see who else is ready to step up" kind of attitude. At times Kyrie just seems to want to take over a game. He'll have a 3 possession spurt where he just dominates and it seems like he could do it more often but there's really no need. He's content to get his assists and move the ball around.

It's kind of amazing that Duke has 10 guys averaging between 11.3 (Tyler) and 26.7 (Nolan) minutes so far this season. There's also 5 guys averaging double figures. It will be interesting to see how this changes as the competition increases. Hopefully Duke can stick w/ a deep bench as it will benefit them for years to come getting so many players so much meaningful time on the court.

[airowe]

But I wouldn't say he's locked down the starting gig just yet. He only played 16 minutes to Miles's 24, and Miles played very strong defense, had a slightly better +/- per 40 and corralled 8 rebounds (although his per 40 rebound rate was only a little better than Ryan's, 13.0 to 12.5). So I don't think we've seen the end of the competition for the 5 spot.

As you and others said in the other thread, I think it's less that Ryan has "won" the starting job as it is that Ryan and Mason work better together on the court and Miles coming in with Andre provides a more post-oriented center than it would with Ryan.

With this much talent it should not be seen as a slight that a player doesn't start. It should just be clear that the lineup combinations work better the way the staff has chosen to implement them.

Although, Ryan has played very, very well for the last two games. As K said in the All-Access videos, "Ryan is a weapon." On a team with less talent around him, Ryan would be shining right now. He has a high ceiling and I think we'll see him get closer to it as the year goes on...

[CampbellBlueDevil]

Well, first of all, Mason has for the most part been guarding the other team's "4," and all the people you've named are "5"s, meaning Miles or Ryan would be guarding them. Second, Mason didn't get his fouls trying to stop a bruiser from taking a strong post move to the hoop. Colgate didn't have any bruisers. IIRC, two of them were at the perimeter and one was in the backcourt. For both reasons, your question seems irrelevant.

I don't think you can extrapolate anything from the Colgate game. I suggest we wait and see how Mason plays against the stiffer competition over the next couple of weeks before we start wringing our hands.

Mason, as well as Miles, need to be able to play defense without giving up silly fouls. And by saying he picked up those fouls away from the basket makes it even more of a worrisome matter. If you feel that Mason will not be guarding any bruisers at some point during a tough match up, then I guess it doesn't matter. However, I believe Mason will be spending significant minutes this year matching up against back to the basket opponents and will spend less time guarding on the perimeter.

I can extrapolate plenty from this Colgate match up... Mason is still giving up the fouls that he did last year. I also know that Colgate is nowhere near an Ohio State, so I would expect there to be a bigger problem against higher tier teams. Contrary to last year, we don't have Zoubek nor LT to split fouls between. We have Kelly, Singler, and Hairston (I don't think that any of those three will have the defensive impact as Zoubs or LT, and Singler will be spending minutes on the wing). I'm not worried about these fouls when it comes to facing smaller teams. I believe we will have some struggles against bigger bodied teams who run their offense through the post. This is where I am concerned about foul trouble.

I know we'll be more than fine this season and the coaches will figure something out, but as of this game Mason has work to do in order to cut back on fouls.

[Indoor66]

As you and others said in the other thread, I think it's less that Ryan has "won" the starting job as it is that Ryan and Mason work better together on the court and Miles coming in with Andre provides a more post-oriented center than it would with Ryan.

With this much talent it should not be seen as a slight that a player doesn't start. It should just be clear that the lineup combinations work better the way the staff has chosen to implement them.

Although, Ryan has played very, very well for the last two games. As K said in the All-Access videos, "Ryan is a weapon." On a team with less talent around him, Ryan would be shining right now. He has a high ceiling and I think we'll see him get closer to it as the year goes on...

IRRC, Ryan was the highest ranked HS player of all our 6'10"+ players. He can shoot and has tremendous court awareness - both on offense and defense. Ryan may well turn out the best college player of our bigs (excluding Kyle).

[Kedsy]

Contrary to last year, we don't have Zoubek nor LT to split fouls between.

Last year we split the fouls among Z, Lance, Miles, and Mason. This year it will be Miles, Mason, Ryan, and Josh. Same number of fouls to give in both seasons. Although in a way it's better this year, because last year's foursome had to play 80 minutes a game while this year's group only has to make it through 70, assuming Kyle plays 10 minutes at the 4.

As far as Miles and Mason picking up more fouls against Ohio State than Colgate, my point was we haven't seen them fouling when matched up with an offense-minded big man, so we don't know if they're more prone to foul in those situations. Their unfortunate tendencies to reach in or try ill-advised blocks from behind aren't applicable or relevant to how they play post defense. And I don't think they'll pick up any more ticky tack fouls against good teams than they do against bad teams. Those silly perimeter fouls are due to a lack of concentration and there's no reason to think they'd occur more frequently against a better team.

[CDu]

Last year we split the fouls among Z, Lance, Miles, and Mason. This year it will be Miles, Mason, Ryan, and Josh. Same number of fouls to give in both seasons. Although in a way it's better this year, because last year's foursome had to play 80 minutes a game while this year's group only has to make it through 70, assuming Kyle plays 10 minutes at the 4.

Yes, but last year the Plumlees weren't asked to play the majority of the minutes in the post. They averaged ~30mpg. Zoubek and Thomas averaged 44mpg, and that number was increasing as the season wore on. And Zoubek and Thomas were more experienced than Kelly and Hairston. This year, while the team only needs about 65-70mpg from the bigs as opposed to ~75mpg (the combined average for the four main bigs last year), we are expecting a larger percentage of those minutes to be the responsibility of the Plumlees. If they don't improve with regards to fouls, that either puts a lot of pressure on Kelly and Hairston or it means we have to play small (not necessarily a problem, but it does limit our options).

As far as Miles and Mason picking up more fouls against Ohio State than Colgate, my point was we haven't seen them fouling when matched up with an offense-minded big man, so we don't know if they're more prone to foul in those situations. Their unfortunate tendencies to reach in or try ill-advised blocks from behind aren't applicable or relevant to how they play post defense. And I don't think they'll pick up any more ticky tack fouls against good teams than they do against bad teams. Those silly perimeter fouls are due to a lack of concentration and there's no reason to think they'd occur more frequently against a better team.

While we don't know with certainty, we can probably make reasonable guesses. Better teams (especially teams that have better offensive weapons in the post) are more likely to draw fouls than bad teams. Therefore, it stands to reason that everyone is a bit more likely to commit a foul against a better team than they are against a really bad team. So if the silly fouls don't decrease, foul trouble could be a very big problem for the Plumlees against better teams.

Hopefully it doesn't turn out that way. But I don't think it's an unreasonable thought that if foul trouble appears against bad teams, it's likely to be a bigger concern against good teams. It's certainly something to keep an eye on in my opinion.

[karndogs]

Combined numbers were good and some flashes were here and there. But watching the way they fumble rebounds which they should grab or commiting silly fouls, I think we need season long development from both of them in order to compete for NC. Right now, I just don't see our bigs can play against good frontcourt.

But we saw how Lance and Zoubs developed last season, so obviously there is great chance they will develop during the season. I think we will see where our bigs stand in next two weeks when we play some good inside players like Kelly ( if he plays), Green, Roe and Howard. I'm anxious to see how Plumlees and other our bigs will defend and rebound against some good inside players.

I agree with this. This is the first time that the Plumlees will be the primary post players. There are going to be some growing pains and they should be expected. I am personally both frustrated and excited with the Plumlees, as silly as that may seem. I'm really hoping that they continue with their improvement (yes, they are improving) and find their roles by March. Here's to plenty of alley oops to the Plums throughout the year!

[Newton_14]

Personally I think folks are making way too much of the Plumlee's fouling. Mason did not have "5 silly fouls 80 feet from the basket" last night. He had 1 bad foul that being the 5th. He hedged out and made the mistake of reaching in.

His 4th foul came on a hustle play off a long offensive rebound. Mason knocked the ball away from the Colgate player in the far corner, the ref called a foul, and K went nuts. On the ref, not Mason. The other 3 fouls came during interior scrum's, and one of those 3 should have actually been called on Kyle. I had a good view from where I was sitting and Mason did not foul the guy there.

Miles actually played deep into the game with no foul trouble and got hit with a few quick one's, again, mostly on hustle plays. He only had a couple where he was caught out of position or taking the wrong angle. He also had a couple of good blocks and played good interior defense most of the night. Mason also played good interior defense for the most part.

They certainly have room for improvement but Mason especially has improved a lot since last year.

The thing is, Duke is playing highly intense in your face defense 1 thru 5. K not only has the guards and wings pressing their man everywhere, the bigs are doing the same thing. This early in the season that kind of style will lead to more fouls than normal. Also having the depth we have will lend itself to taking more risks.

Let's see how they do next week when the competition stiffens. Given that they stayed in the rotation all of last year on a National Title team, they have experience against the toughest of opponents. They will make mistakes along the way but should get better and better as we move forward. Give them time. We are only 3 games into the season and neither the Plumlee's nor the team itself are anywhere near a finished product.

[hq2]

This is the first time that the Plumlees will be the primary post players. There are going to be some growing pains and they should be expected. I am personally both frustrated and excited with the Plumlees, as silly as that may seem. I'm really hoping that they continue with their improvement (yes, they are improving) and find their roles by March

Yes, they'll get better, but I'd have to say unless we see a Zoubs-like rebirth from Miles (which is always possible) it's hard to see him doing much more. This is his third year and he hasn't improved all that much, so I wouldn't expect too much more from him. With Mason, who knows. There are lots of possibilities, but still no consistency. Hopefully, by late season, he might be good for a steady 8-10 points, 8-10 rebounds against quality comp. Actually, I'd say if the two could give us maybe 12 or 14 points together at the 5, that would be enough. We have so many other quality scoring options, as long as they board and defend well, we don't need them to do much scoring. We should be fine.

[NSDukeFan]

Yes, they'll get better, but I'd have to say unless we see a Zoubs-like rebirth from Miles (which is always possible) it's hard to see him doing much more. This is his third year and he hasn't improved all that much, so I wouldn't expect too much more from him. With Mason, who knows. There are lots of possibilities, but still no consistency. Hopefully, by late season, he might be good for a steady 8-10 points, 8-10 rebounds against quality comp. Actually, I'd say if the two could give us maybe 12 or 14 points together at the 5, that would be enough. We have so many other quality scoring options, as long as they board and defend well, we don't need them to do much scoring. We should be fine.

I thought Miles improved tremendously between his freshman and sophomore years, and heard great things about his improvement over the summer. I expect this year he will be much improved over last year. I am not ready to write him off after 3 games this year.