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  1. #421
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    ?????

    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    K doesn't seem to trust freshmen.
    Kyrie Irving, Kyle Singler, Jon Scheyer, Greg Paulus, Shane Battier, Elton Brand, Grant Hill, and Bobby Hurley would disagree, I think.

  2. #422
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Kyrie Irving, Kyle Singler, Jon Scheyer, Greg Paulus, Shane Battier, Elton Brand, Grant Hill, and Bobby Hurley would disagree, I think.
    Right. K trusts players who earn his trust, regardless of year. This takes time, obviously, so it is unusual for a freshman to accomplish that right off the bat. But when it happens, K has shown no lack of willingness to put freshmen on the floor.

  3. #423
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC

    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Kyrie Irving, Kyle Singler, Jon Scheyer, Greg Paulus, Shane Battier, Elton Brand, Grant Hill, and Bobby Hurley would disagree, I think.
    Just at point guard, K has started Johnny Dawkins, Tommy Amaker, Bobby Hurley, Jeff Capel, Jason Williams, Greg Paulus and Kyrie Irving as freshmen. Just at that one crucial position.

  4. #424
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    MKE
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post



    Just at point guard, K has started Johnny Dawkins, Tommy Amaker, Bobby Hurley, Jeff Capel, Jason Williams, Greg Paulus and Kyrie Irving as freshmen. Just at that one crucial position.
    Quinn actually started 4 games last season, too. And Thornton 3 the year before.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus View Post
    Quinn actually started 4 games last season, too. And Thornton 3 the year before.
    And of course we can't forget Chris Duhon. It might actually be easier to name the PGs Coach K did not start as a freshman.

  6. #426
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Li_Duke View Post
    And of course we can't forget Chris Duhon. It might actually be easier to name the PGs Coach K did not start as a freshman.
    I'd say Duhon was more of the SG in 2001 when he came in as a starter. Williams was very much the lead guard. The roles shifted a bit in 2002, when Duhon became a full-time starter and took a lot of the ballhandling pressure off of Williams.

  7. #427
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Li_Duke View Post
    And of course we can't forget Chris Duhon. It might actually be easier to name the PGs Coach K did not start as a freshman.
    Duhon didn't start until Boozer's broken foot in the next-to-last regular-season game.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Kyrie Irving, Kyle Singler, Jon Scheyer, Greg Paulus, Shane Battier, Elton Brand, Grant Hill, and Bobby Hurley would disagree, I think.
    I'll try not to get too involved but you also named several of the all time Duke greats including a #1 overall pick in the NBA draft and top recruiting talent. Add on the fact that several of those guys started more out of necessity like who would you rather have played than Singler or Scheyer? I guess I should have put on a few clarifications but Cook came on to a loaded roster and unlike AR, his offense wasn't good enough to negate his defense so K went with the experience something he didn't really have in some of your examples.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post



    Just at point guard, K has started Johnny Dawkins, Tommy Amaker, Bobby Hurley, Jeff Capel, Jason Williams, Greg Paulus and Kyrie Irving as freshmen. Just at that one crucial position.
    So you are looking at a #1 pick and ROY award winner, along with 3 guys who have their jerseys retired. I don't think anyone expects Cook to be in that category. I'm not saying K never looks at younger guys b/c in the college game not starting freshmen especially in today's game is just asking for trouble but when given the chance, K seems to give the edge to the upperclassmen for better or worse.

  10. #430
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Agree, partially

    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    I'll try not to get too involved but you also named several of the all time Duke greats including a #1 overall pick in the NBA draft and top recruiting talent. Add on the fact that several of those guys started more out of necessity like who would you rather have played than Singler or Scheyer? I guess I should have put on a few clarifications but Cook came on to a loaded roster and unlike AR, his offense wasn't good enough to negate his defense so K went with the experience something he didn't really have in some of your examples.
    I don't mean to argue with you about this, but it's just not true that Coach K doesn't play freshmen, and so I wouldn't make a blanket statement about that. For example, Battier and Brand started over Roshown McLeod, who did play in the NBA for a while, so he wasn't a slouch. As you say, it depends on who's on the roster and how talented (and ready) the freshman is. Laettner started over Abdelnaby, who also played in the NBA.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    I don't mean to argue with you about this, but it's just not true that Coach K doesn't play freshmen, and so I wouldn't make a blanket statement about that. For example, Battier and Brand started over Roshown McLeod, who did play in the NBA for a while, so he wasn't a slouch. As you say, it depends on who's on the roster and how talented (and ready) the freshman is. Laettner started over Abdelnaby, who also played in the NBA.
    But you keep bringing up legendary talent of which I don't think anyone puts Quinn Cook in that discussion. You just brought up a #1 pick, #3 pick and #6 pick in the draft. What about players like Kelly or Mason Plumlee who seemed underutilized their freshmen year albeit some will say they won a title that year. Or how it took so long for Elliot Williams to get extended playing time. And time will only tell how much Cook and Gbinije could have contributed but I'll qualify my statement apart from lottery picks or top 10 recruits, K rarely relies on his freshmen.

  12. #432
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Thanks to sagegrouse

    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    But you keep bringing up legendary talent of which I don't think anyone puts Quinn Cook in that discussion. You just brought up a #1 pick, #3 pick and #6 pick in the draft. What about players like Kelly or Mason Plumlee who seemed underutilized their freshmen year albeit some will say they won a title that year. Or how it took so long for Elliot Williams to get extended playing time. And time will only tell how much Cook and Gbinije could have contributed but I'll qualify my statement apart from lottery picks or top 10 recruits, K rarely relies on his freshmen.
    Well, thanks to sagegrouse, we now know that 25% of his recruits have started a majority of the games in their freshman seasons.

    http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...arters-at-Duke

    If I was a talented high school player, that would be enough for me.

  13. #433
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    I would agree about the potential. Apart from AR, Cook seemed to be the only guy who could beat his man off the dribble last year. He seemed to spark the team and a few times jump started Mason similar to KI did last year. I'm excited to see him play this year and he has a decent mid range game. Offensively he got a bit out of control which should fix itself this year and defensively I didn't think he was a particular liability he just wasn't TT and K doesn't seem to trust freshmen. That said, I see no reason why Cook can't be like a Chris Duhon type who is surrounded by talent and needs to be a facilitator but can beat you unlike Marshall struggled to last year. I think 8-10 points and 4.5-6.5 assists a game is well within the realm of possibilities especially when he averaged 4.4 points and 1.9 assists in 11.7 minutes.
    I really like Quinn too, and hope he can improve enough to take over as our leader at the point this year. But I don't think 6.5 assists per game is likely at all. In the history of Duke basketball, that has been done only six times, and four of them were by Bobby Hurley, who had a Duke record of 8.2 apg in his senior year. He holds down the #1, 2, 4, and 5 positions on the list, with Dick Groat and Jason Williams filling out the top 6 -- Jason just getting to 6.5 apg in his freshman year. I'd be thrilled to be wrong, but I would not expect Quinn to be handing out assists at that rate this year.

  14. #434
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I really like Quinn too, and hope he can improve enough to take over as our leader at the point this year. But I don't think 6.5 assists per game is likely at all. In the history of Duke basketball, that has been done only six times, and four of them were by Bobby Hurley, who had a Duke record of 8.2 apg in his senior year. He holds down the #1, 2, 4, and 5 positions on the list, with Dick Groat and Jason Williams filling out the top 6 -- Jason just getting to 6.5 apg in his freshman year. I'd be thrilled to be wrong, but I would not expect Quinn to be handing out assists at that rate this year.
    If Quinn can put up 5-6 apg along with 10-12 ppg, we will have a completely different - and more dynamic - look on offense next year. Those are aspirational goals, to be sure, but well within the realm of reason.

  15. #435
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    So you are looking at a #1 pick and ROY award winner, along with 3 guys who have their jerseys retired. I don't think anyone expects Cook to be in that category. I'm not saying K never looks at younger guys b/c in the college game not starting freshmen especially in today's game is just asking for trouble but when given the chance, K seems to give the edge to the upperclassmen for better or worse.
    I'm also looking at Amaker, Capel and Paulus. None ever made first-team All-ACC and none ever played a second in the NBA. But all started at PG as freshmen at Duke.

    Why would they not count?

  16. #436
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I'm also looking at Amaker, Capel and Paulus. None ever made first-team All-ACC and none ever played a second in the NBA. But all started at PG as freshmen at Duke.

    Why would they not count?
    I don't think Coach K has ever been accused of not playing freshmen. I remember the media making a big deal out of it in 2001 when Duhon became the first freshman under Coach K to win Conference Frosh of the Year (if I'm wrong on that, I'm sure someone will correct me). The reporting, as I recall, was tinged with equal parts "that's how good Duhon is" and "that's an indication of Coach K not giving freshmen great responsibility historically". But the freshman start/not start thing has never been an issue with Coach K.
    "I don't like them when they are eating my azaleas or rhododendrons or pansies." - Coach K

  17. #437
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by gam7 View Post
    I don't think Coach K has ever been accused of not playing freshmen. I remember the media making a big deal out of it in 2001 when Duhon became the first freshman under Coach K to win Conference Frosh of the Year (if I'm wrong on that, I'm sure someone will correct me). The reporting, as I recall, was tinged with equal parts "that's how good Duhon is" and "that's an indication of Coach K not giving freshmen great responsibility historically". But the freshman start/not start thing has never been an issue with Coach K.
    Mike Krzyzewski has indeed been accused of not playing freshmen. He's also been accused of not being able to win the big one, not being able to develop big men, not being able to produce NBA players,, not knowing how to use his bench, an over-reliance on stall ball, not being able to recognize the talents of the 10th guy buried on the bench and being primarily responsible for the collapse of Mayan civilization.

    Yet, somehow, he carries on.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    and being primarily responsible for the collapse of Mayan civilization.
    In retrospect, he should have been more careful with those pickles.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Mike Krzyzewski has indeed been accused of not playing freshmen. He's also been accused of not being able to win the big one, not being able to develop big men, not being able to produce NBA players,, not knowing how to use his bench, an over-reliance on stall ball, not being able to recognize the talents of the 10th guy buried on the bench and being primarily responsible for the collapse of Mayan civilization.

    Yet, somehow, he carries on.
    Well, obviously most of these are myths with no basis in fact. But I've heard fairly credible corroboration on the Mayan civilization thing, so I wouldn't be so quick to throw that out.

  20. #440
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Triad, NC

    off topic a bit?

    This last page should be it's own thread of freshmen playing time as it has little specifically to do with '13 recruiting.

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