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  1. #201
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    Let me get this straight...

    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    I'd say so far all three of you were off b/c Singler has played the 4 significant minutes and it hasn't had as much to do with the other bigs as the other perimeter players IMO. [B]I'm not sure when your "10 MPG max but probably less" estimate became 8-12 MPG but it seems to be a very dynamic estimate.[B/]
    You're really arguing 2 minutes either way?

    ...

    It seems to me this argument boils down to one thing: Everyone has different interpretations of what exactly constitutes "significant" or "substantial" minutes/playing time.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    from your June 4th post on the Josh Hairston thread:

    So even if Kyle plays 10 mpg at the "4" (which I think may be a tad high but isn't an unreasonable estimate)

    Here is Boozer's subsequent quote:
    His first 2 years, Singler bulked up and carried extra weight to enable his body to handle the banging needed to guard 4's and 5's inside. Last year he redefined his body by dropping weight and working on lateral quickness and ball handling to prepare his body and skill set to play exclusively on the wing. This was also in preparation to play his natural position of Small Forward in the NBA. The end result of that was the Final Four MOP on the National Champion, and arguably, Kyle was the best Small Forward in college. Coming back for his Sr year he is most likely hands down the best Small Forward in the college game.

    To play "significant minutes at the 4" and do so effectively, Kyle would need to transform his body back to where it was his sophomore and freshman year, and focus again on being an interior player. I really doubt Kyle is interested in going backward.

    There will be times (like last 5 minutes protecting a lead) where Kyle will slide over to the 4. If it ends up he plays "significant" minutes at the 4 it means something has gone terrible wrong with the other bigs on the roster, and the effectiveness of our team defense and rebounding will not be very good.


    Here is you agreeing with Boozer:
    So because of both these reasons (plus all of Boozer's points about Kyle) I don't see Kyle playing more than 10 mpg at the "4" (and probably less)

    here is Mr. Sumner getting into the mix:
    The plan is to play 2 of Plumlee, Plumlee, Kelly and Hairston at the 4/5, with Singler moving inside during end-of-game-situations. I agree with Boozer here. Singler only plays major minutes inside if the other four bigs don't play up to snuff.

    I'd say so far all three of you were off b/c Singler has played the 4 significant minutes and it hasn't had as much to do with the other bigs as the other perimeter players IMO. I'm not sure when your "10 MPG max but probably less" estimate became 8-12 MPG but it seems to be a very dynamic estimate.
    I was offering an olive branch, but whatever. I know I did say 8 to 12 at some point in that debate, and I don't actually remember you giving any hard numbers at the time but I'll accept your word that you did. I also know in all the minutes discussions I counted Kyle for 10 minutes at the 4.

    But even using your quote, if you honestly think there's a huge difference between "10" (my take) and "10 to 15" (your take) then I there's really no point in continuing this discussion.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I was offering an olive branch, but whatever. I know I did say 8 to 12 at some point in that debate, and I don't actually remember you giving any hard numbers at the time but I'll accept your word that you did. I also know in all the minutes discussions I counted Kyle for 10 minutes at the 4.

    But even using your quote, if you honestly think there's a huge difference between "10" (my take) and "10 to 15" (your take) then I there's really no point in continuing this discussion.
    HA the same folks who want to nitpick every little statement and always want evidence or even a link don't seem to like having their statements micro-analyzed. If Singler plays 26 MPG as he did against Princeton then 10 minutes at PF is 38%, 12 minutes is 46% and 15 is 57% so yes I think those are a significant differences. I'll admit that I never thought Kyle would play more at 4 than 3 and I still don't. My point was that as far as I can remember the discussion was not about Kyle starting or playing most of his minutes at 4 - at least not from me - but whether there would be a shift in Kyle's role B/C the change in personnel and depth. While your numbers are fairly close to mine, the statements by Jim and Boozer were much different and you seemed to come down on their side of the debate. The statements at that time came across in other threads like "why can't you simpletons get it through your thick heads that this how it's going to be and why do you keep arguing with the experts" so I don't mind at all pointing out that I was right. Sorry if that is bothersome to you.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    My point was that as far as I can remember the discussion was not about Kyle starting or playing most of his minutes at 4 - at least not from me - but whether there would be a shift in Kyle's role B/C the change in personnel and depth.
    My recollection is the discussion was entirely about Kyle starting at the 4 and/or playing most of his minutes there. I have no memory at all about your posts, so I'm talking about the general discussion here.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    HA the same folks who want to nitpick every little statement and always want evidence or even a link don't seem to like having their statements micro-analyzed. If Singler plays 26 MPG as he did against Princeton then 10 minutes at PF is 38%, 12 minutes is 46% and 15 is 57% so yes I think those are a significant differences. I'll admit that I never thought Kyle would play more at 4 than 3 and I still don't. My point was that as far as I can remember the discussion was not about Kyle starting or playing most of his minutes at 4 - at least not from me - but whether there would be a shift in Kyle's role B/C the change in personnel and depth. While your numbers are fairly close to mine, the statements by Jim and Boozer were much different and you seemed to come down on their side of the debate. The statements at that time came across in other threads like "why can't you simpletons get it through your thick heads that this how it's going to be and why do you keep arguing with the experts" so I don't mind at all pointing out that I was right. Sorry if that is bothersome to you.
    So you micro-analyze other people's posts when you offer generalities and say that you are right? I am not sure where Boozer, Jim or Kedsy are wrong here. Kedsy said he thought Kyle would play about 10 minutes a game as a 4 and maybe less, agreeing with Boozer who said Kyle was perhaps the best small forward in college basketball, and Jim was kind enough to tell the board that the plan (from Duke's coaching staff) was to play Singler as a 3, except for late in games. So now after two games where the coaching staff is experimenting with line-ups and Kyle has started both games at the 3 you are confident that you are right and the others are wrong?

    By the way, this topic was discussed a lot over the summer, as playing time is an interesting topic to think about when there aren't actual games to talk about. Here is the main thread discussing whether Kyle would play 25+ minutes as a 3 or 4, with many thinking it may be in-between, but Boozer, Kedsy and I (and others) felt Kyle would be playing mostly as a 3, and I don't think any of us have changed our minds on that at this point.
    http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...ight=vs.+small

    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    I think Kyle will play signifcant minutes at 4 next year due to the makeup of this years team. ... Foul trouble or injuries for the MPs could be another facto but otherwise Josh and RK probably avg 7 mpg IMO.
    It seems odd that you are taking this confrontational tone when the only thing I disagree with you is I expect Ryan will average many more than 7 mpg, which is why I expect Kyle will not have to average more than 10 mpg as a 4. You argue that Kedsy made a big change by saying that Kyle could average up to 12 minutes instead of 10 per game, yet it is ok, when you change your mind from Josh and Ryan totalling 14 mpg to 20 mpg. Interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    My sense that Singler will play signficant minutes at the 4 position is based mostly on the makeup of the team and our 4 tallented guards. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    ...
    Seems to me that the lineup that gives us the best chance to win may be to go small regularly with Kyle at 4 in order to maximize our guard strength. ... Someone said no more than 10 minutes at 4 for Kyle which to me would be "signficant" minutes at 4 so maybe we are arguing semantics. 10 mpg at PF and 20 on the wing for Kyle leaves 20mpg for Dre at 3. If MPs play 25mpg at 4/5 and Kyle plays 10mpg at 4 that leaves 20 minutes for Josh and RK at 4/5 which seems pretty balanced and equitable to me but that's just my hunch.
    I think you are right here, as Kedsy indicated, the argument here is semantics. You feel that 10 mpg as a 4 is significant, while Kedsy seems to expect the majority of Kyle's minutes to be as a wing. There isn't a whole lot of argument here, except for
    I don't mind at all pointing out that I was right[/B]. Sorry if that is bothersome to you.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  6. #206
    I'm comfortable with the position I've taken, the points I've made to support my position and the tone I've use in the discussion. You may want to retrace the various threads to see where it turned confrontational. I have nothing to add.

  7. #207
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    Krzyzewski was asked last night about starting Kelly over Miles Plumlee. His response was that Duke was still experimenting with the starting lineup, looking at different combinations. He also said that Singler was not one of the options to start at the 4. Rather he would continue to start at the 3.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Krzyzewski was asked last night about starting Kelly over Miles Plumlee. His response was that Duke was still experimenting with the starting lineup, looking at different combinations. He also said that Singler was not one of the options to start at the 4. Rather he would continue to start at the 3.
    While reviewing old posts yesterday I only saw saw one person who proposed starting lineup with Singler at 4 so that is consistent with most peoples expectations.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    While reviewing old posts yesterday I only saw saw one person who proposed starting lineup with Singler at 4 so that is consistent with most peoples expectations.
    Many people over the summer were predicting a very small starting lineup of Kyrie/Seth/Nolan/Kyle/Mason.

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  10. #210

    Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Boozer View Post
    Many people over the summer were predicting a very small starting lineup of Kyrie/Seth/Nolan/Kyle/Mason.
    So what if one substitutes Andre for Seth in that lineup, with Kyle and Andre collectively playing the 3/4? Would that mean that we have a problem our "bigs"? Maybe Dre starts playing so well, and showing the aptitude to defend bigger players, that we can't keep him off the court.

    It just seems that there are other possibilities where Kyle ends up being the second biggest player on the floor that don't start with the Plumlees or Kelly not performing.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayZee View Post
    So what if one substitutes Andre for Seth in that lineup, with Kyle and Andre collectively playing the 3/4? Would that mean that we have a problem our "bigs"? Maybe Dre starts playing so well, and showing the aptitude to defend bigger players, that we can't keep him off the court.

    It just seems that there are other possibilities where Kyle ends up being the second biggest player on the floor that don't start with the Plumlees or Kelly not performing.
    I agree with that. Inserting Andre would make that a bigger line up obviously, and I would count that as one of our medium lineups. Against current competition, that lineup as well as Andre with 2 bigs and Kyle resting has performed well.

    That is the beauty of this team and having a player like Kyle. K has many options. I just feel from a defensive and rebounding standpoint we can be better with Kyle at the 3. But even there, if we are facing a smaller team, we may be better defensively with one of the lineups with Kyle at the 4.

    It has come down to semantics really and the difference over a literal 4 to 6 minutes. As of right now, Kyle has played a slightly higher amount of minutes at the 4 than I expected, which again is fine. I have no problem saying I projected him a few minutes lower. I just want the team to win first and foremost.

    Edit: I failed to address one of your questions. My hope is that the bigs play well enough that K can play the 2 Bigs lineup with Kyle at the 3 as many minutes as he chooses, AND that Andre/Seth play well enough that K can play the smaller/medium lineups as many minutes as he choose. That will be a dominant team.

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Boozer View Post
    Many people over the summer were predicting a very small starting lineup of Kyrie/Seth/Nolan/Kyle/Mason.
    Well it was discussed on multiple threads so I could certainly have miss remembered (apologies to GWB) and there was allot of discussion about minutes i.e. +- 25 minutes for 3 guards but not many actual starting lineups listed with Singler at 4.

    Cockabeau is actually the only person I saw who posted a starting lineup with Kyle at 4. Hedevil, Devilhorns and Kyriecrazy posted that the small lineup was our best lineup so starting Kyle was maybe implied. Beyond that some people said Seth would start over Nolan. I reviewed the posts yesterday for my own benefit. I don't reccomend doing that BTW.

  13. #213
    I can obviously only speak for myself here, but I am not backing down on my opinion that the smaller lineup will be the more dominant in the late part of the season. In addition, I have been consistent in pointing out that we won't go small until the later part of the season. I have repeatedly stated that coach K would try various lineups for quite some time until he finds a rotation that works. I have and continue to claim that Seth would prove himself too valuable to stay on the bench for longer minutes of the games than any of the bigs, eventually leading to a smaller lineup for most of the minutes of games (be it 20 min and 1 sec, or whatever it is). I know my opinion is not of the majority which is fine, it is just my opinion. For the record, I do count Andre/Seth at the 3 with Kyle at the 4 as one of my small lineup predictions in minutes.

    One other statement that I have been consistent on (the most important of all) is that I don't care who the lineup is at the end of he day, as long as it's the best that we have to offer. If the big lineup gets Duke to where we want to go, then I'm all in. I, just like all of us, trust and know that coach K is the master at maximizing talent. I'm just happy that we have coach K steering the ship.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boozer View Post
    I agree with that. Inserting Andre would make that a bigger line up obviously, and I would count that as one of our medium lineups. Against current competition, that lineup as well as Andre with 2 bigs and Kyle resting has performed well.

    That is the beauty of this team and having a player like Kyle. K has many options. I just feel from a defensive and rebounding standpoint we can be better with Kyle at the 3. But even there, if we are facing a smaller team, we may be better defensively with one of the lineups with Kyle at the 4.

    It has come down to semantics really and the difference over a literal 4 to 6 minutes. As of right now, Kyle has played a slightly higher amount of minutes at the 4 than I expected, which again is fine. I have no problem saying I projected him a few minutes lower. I just want the team to win first and foremost.

    Edit: I failed to address one of your questions. My hope is that the bigs play well enough that K can play the 2 Bigs lineup with Kyle at the 3 as many minutes as he chooses, AND that Andre/Seth play well enough that K can play the smaller/medium lineups as many minutes as he choose. That will be a dominant team.
    I have always thought that Kyle would play mostly on the wing with two bigs, for defensive reasons. One thing that has been a pleasant surprise early on, that might make what I thought incorrect, has been the ability of Andre to guard the opposition's 3. Since he has been guarding the pre-season player of the year consistently in practice, he is certainly getting used to guarding a bigger player (and the best one in the country at that.) If he continues to be successful doing that, there may be more line-ups with Kyle as the second biggest player. I am expecting Miles, Mason and Ryan to prove to be so valuable defensively and solid offensively that coach K has lots of great options.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedevil View Post
    For the record, I do count Andre/Seth at the 3 with Kyle at the 4 as one of my small lineup predictions in minutes.
    I agree you should count a lineup with Andre at the 3 and Kyle at the 4 as a "small lineup" for the purposes of this debate. However, I will also say there is a world of difference between a lineup with Andre at the 3 (who is 6'4", built well, and has shown that he can probably guard a guy in the 6'6" to 6'8" range) and Seth at the 3 (who is skinny and listed at 6'2" but looks smaller when he stands next to other players).

    Part of the reason this debate was so heated in the first place was because the people arguing for a small lineup (including you, hedevil) were talking about Kyrie/Nolan/Seth/Kyle/big. Most of these small lineup people were suggesting Andre would only play 10 to 15 minutes a game. But a Kyrie/Nolan/Seth small lineup will have defensive issues against most top teams because none of Kyrie/Nolan/Seth are big enough to successfully defend a 6'8", 230 pound small forward, and those advocating the "big" lineup (like myself) had problems believing we would field a team with such an obvious defensive liability for any significant length of time. This changes if Andre (a) is capable of defending a 6'8", 230 pound SF; and (b) plays 20 to 25 minutes a game.

    So while I agree a lineup with Andre at the 3 and Kyle at the 4 should "count" for the small lineup people, I also think the small lineup people are fibbing a little if they say that's the lineup they were championing.

  16. #216
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    Whether we classify Andre as big, small, or mid-sized....I'm thrilled with his progress this year.

    His long-range shooting appears as good as ever; he is also developing his court awareness, defensive ability, and overall energy. Based on early action, I believe he's improved more than any other returnee. (I'd be quite happy to see Ryan or the Plums challenge that distinction). What a weapon we now have with shooters like Andre and Seth coming off the bench.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Whether we classify Andre as big, small, or mid-sized....I'm thrilled with his progress this year.

    His long-range shooting appears as good as ever; he is also developing his court awareness, defensive ability, and overall energy. Based on early action, I believe he's improved more than any other returnee. (I'd be quite happy to see Ryan or the Plums challenge that distinction). What a weapon we now have with shooters like Andre and Seth coming off the bench.
    I completely agree, Roy. Just looking at his body language, you can tell he's a completely different player. And at least so far his defense has looked stellar. I think Ryan has made a similar jump but, like you, at this point I would give the "most improved" award to Andre.

    It must be really demoralizing for other teams who are expending all their energy trying to contain Kyrie, Nolan, and Kyle to breathe a sigh of relief when two of them leave the game only to see Andre and Seth come in and have to chase them all over the earth or risk giving up a flurry of three-pointers.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I completely agree, Roy. Just looking at his body language, you can tell he's a completely different player. And at least so far his defense has looked stellar. I think Ryan has made a similar jump but, like you, at this point I would give the "most improved" award to Andre.

    It must be really demoralizing for other teams who are expending all their energy trying to contain Kyrie, Nolan, and Kyle to breathe a sigh of relief when two of them leave the game only to see Andre and Seth come in and have to chase them all over the earth or risk giving up a flurry of three-pointers.
    I wonder if Andre's game would have been that much better last year had been able to spend the whole summer in Durham (summer 2009). If I recall correctly he did not make it to Durham for a while because he had that english class necessary to graduate high school. His body fat appears down and his confidence is waaaay up. We'll have to revisit this come January to see who we think made the biggest leap. But Andre appears to be the consensus (after 2 games).

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    I wonder if Andre's game would have been that much better last year had been able to spend the whole summer in Durham (summer 2009).
    Well, maybe, but perhaps he just needed the time to grow into his body. He was young for a college freshman.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    ... So while I agree a lineup with Andre at the 3 and Kyle at the 4 should "count" for the small lineup people, I also think the small lineup people are fibbing a little if they say that's the lineup they were championing.
    Fibber? Fibber? You calling me a fibber?

    Your fastuous fulmination leaves me frowning, flat-footed, foresaken, fractured, fuming, frazzled, feral, flummoxed, frivolous, felled, flabergasted, fuddled, flagitious, frustrated, four-flushed, flattened, feckless, fugued, flensed, fricaseed, fussy, and even futzed, but, as always, facetious and a bit fatuous and flatulent.

    Frankly, the quibbling over who predicted how many minutes Kyle will play at the "4" is devisive. Coach K tends to play his best players the most, and to do that, Kyle will have to spend time at the four to allow for 3 other perimeter players. Seth and Dre are earning their time on the court, and it appears that will continue. I think Miles and Ryan will earn some of that time back as the season progresses, particulalry in the tournament when the games slow down and each possession more critical.

    What is truly a marvel is that Coach K is like MacGyver let loose in Home Depot, an Army surplus store, and a chemical supply warehouse. With Kyle starting at the "3" and then sliding to the "4" after 5 or so minutes, how does the other team adjust? Coach K can bring waves of speed with Kyrie, Nolan, and Seth. He can place shooters at every spot on the floor. He can throw any type of defender one could imagine onto the floor. He can signal lightning attacks on the basket, with Kyrie, Nolan, Seth and Andre charging light light calvarly into befuddled infantry. It is truly a joy to watch.

    And yet, Coach K seems intent on developing more weapons. Mason has the talent to be a high post threat, which requires hitting a jump shot from the foul line or higher. This will pull the defender out to give Mason room to drive (he is quicker than most bigs who will guard him) and will open the lane for the rest of the team to drive. This will be particularly important when teams start to zone us. The high post is a key (excuse the pun) spot in attacking zones, and Mason appears to be the man for the job.

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