Sopranos finale

[edensquad]

I wouldn't make too much of "no ducks"... it was just one glance up at the sky. Tony, after 7 years of therapy, has made no progress (other than no panic attacks): he is still grappling with his fractured relationship with his "mudder," he still is a classic sociopath: no remorse, no conscience... serial adulterer, murderer, thief, gambling addicted (who sees himself as a victim because he lost so much to Hesh).

I'd say we are hardly "uninformed" and biased; David Chase has revealed the monster that Tony is to us all. He no doubt "needed killin'" as we say in the South, lol. And his enemies must have been legion; true, there was no one in the diner wearing a "bad guy" sign on his back, but it is not a stretch to imagine that Tony got his comeuppance for no other reason than the NY mob saw him as a thorn in their side... and they could take a bigger piece with him gone.

On the other hand, he may still be eating his onion rings, lol! Who knows?

[greybeard]

I wouldn't make too much of "no ducks"... it was just one glance up at the sky. Tony, after 7 years of therapy, has made no progress (other than no panic attacks): he is still grappling with his fractured relationship with his "mudder," he still is a classic sociopath: no remorse, no conscience... serial adulterer, murderer, thief, gambling addicted (who sees himself as a victim because he lost so much to Hesh).

I'd say we are hardly "uninformed" and biased; David Chase has revealed the monster that Tony is to us all. He no doubt "needed killin'" as we say in the South, lol. And his enemies must have been legion; true, there was no one in the diner wearing a "bad guy" sign on his back, but it is not a stretch to imagine that Tony got his comeuppance for no other reason than the NY mob saw him as a thorn in their side... and they could take a bigger piece with him gone.

On the other hand, he may still be eating his onion rings, lol! Who knows?

Who is the NY mob and why'd they kill Phil if they were going to take out Tony? NY needed Jersey like a hole in the head; Jersey was never their thing; they were getting paid by Jersey for doing nothing. Make sense; Phil didn't and they helped get him whacked. Nope, NY didn't do it. thorn in their side? The only things he ever said "no" to were Johnny Sac's murderous rage at Ralphie for dissing his wife, and Phil's desire to torture Tony's cousin, instead of just blowing his brains out with a shot gun, which Tony graciously did. Tony made them money, not trouble. They did not take him out.

Getting rid of the panic attacks was no small thing. He didn't go to a shrink to rid himself of his murderous instincts; I think he likes them. Tony was a complex guy, who could quote Dylan to his shrink (you had to love that weatherman line, priceless), and act with restraint or cold ruthlessless, depending upon what good business called for.

No doubt that Chase succeeded in showing the vileness of the mob, of men like Tony. But he also showed that there is something winsome about them, and their thing, something warm and generous and bold, but which hideously overlays the murderous rage and banality upon which it all rests.

We are left with a deep understanding of just how monsterous and horrific men like Tony are. And, while we'd like to think that we understand them--that it is all about the glamour, the money, the women, the action--in the end, Chase shows us we do not. He shows us instead that we still insist on glamorizing them; if we didn't, we could not possibly see that last scene as a murder scenario when the cold hard facts show that it was not.

Just my take; this is fun!

[edensquad]

Lol! This is fun... sorry, but the "cold hard facts" you offer up are just your opinion, interesting as it is ;-)

The FBI guy helped Tony take out Phil by giving up his location. The NY guys merely "shook on it." Wanna take them at their word? Not me. The collections were "light" for Tony's crew as folks sensed a shake-up and were paying more to NY in the power vacuum. Remember that scene? Maybe NY liked that taste.

A stretch? Maybe... but no more so than arguing that these guys had any redeeming qualities whatsoever. Chase juxtaposed family life with "Family" life, and it was jarring all these years... but at no time did I believe Tony or any of these guys had anyone else's interests at heart but their own.

[mr. synellinden]

First, and I think most important, watch Tony's entrance at Holsten's again. He comes from seeing Junior wearing a brown shirt and leather jacket. He enters Holsten's and stares into the restaurant for a few moments. He looks at the center table and sees nobody. It cuts back to Tony looking into the restaurant again, and this time you see Tony sitting at the center table wearing a different shirt. The implication by the way it is edited is that Tony is staring into the restaurant and seeing himself (not to tread into lost territory here, but something is up there).

Second, listen to the music playing before Tony plays "Don't Stop Believing". The lyrics start, "All, all that you dream ..." It's "All that you dream" by Little Feat. And these are the lyrics:

I've been down, but not like this before
Can't be 'round this kind of show no more

All, all that you dream
Comes through shinin silver lining
Clouds, clouds change the scene
Rain starts washing all these cautions
Right into your life, makes you realize
Just what is true, what else can you do
You just follow the rule
Keep your eyes on the road that's ahead of you

I've been down, but not like this before
Can't be 'round this kind of show no more

All of the good, good times were ours
In the land of milk and honey
And time, time adds its scars
Rainy days they turn to sunny ones
Livin' the life, livin' the life lovin' everyone

I've been down, but not like this before
Can't be 'round this kind of show no more
I've been down, but not like this before
Can't be 'round this kind of show no more

I've been down, but not like this before


If you have the show recorded, watch the last scene again. I also think it is interesting how as soon as the Journey song starts, Carmela walks in.

Throwing my two cents in here ... I LOVED the last episode and the entire last season. I think it was by far the best (other than the first season). I don't believe you are supposed to believe that Tony gets whacked. Tony keeps looking up as people enter, not out of fear (he lives with the knowledge, not fear, that he could get whacked at any time). He keeps looking up hoping to see his family members arrive. Once Meadow arrives, that's it. They are all together, eating burgers and onion rings in a truly American diner ... with truckers, boy scouts, lovers, families, different ethnicities, etc. The whole point of the show, from day one, was to put the microscope on an American family who just happens to be fathered by a mafia boss - and how that fact affects all of the family dynamics. The last episode tied that all up brilliantly.

[edensquad]

Ya know, my wife said at the time, "Tony's shirt is different... it's like he sees himself." Was it all a dying dream? (making it different from Bobby's on Dallas).

Great post! I don't think you have to believe Tony got whacked... I just believe he is dead. I'll buy that he had to "settle" some things as he was dying from Junior's gunshot wound... and, seeing as they were settled, it just went black.

My take and 50 cents'll getcha a Milky Way, lol!!

I just don't buy that David Chase made this deep commentary on society... interviews I've read lead me to believe he is all about the characters and what makes them tick... and telling a great story... which he did.

[greybeard]

Lol! This is fun... sorry, but the "cold hard facts" you offer up are just your opinion, interesting as it is ;-)

The FBI guy helped Tony take out Phil by giving up his location. The NY guys merely "shook on it." Wanna take them at their word? Not me. The collections were "light" for Tony's crew as folks sensed a shake-up and were paying more to NY in the power vacuum. Remember that scene? Maybe NY liked that taste.

A stretch? Maybe... but no more so than arguing that these guys had any redeeming qualities whatsoever. Chase juxtaposed family life with "Family" life, and it was jarring all these years... but at no time did I believe Tony or any of these guys had anyone else's interests at heart but their own.

Back atchya.

I'm not buying the NY thing; Phil was dellusional; NY and NJ had been doing business for two generations. They weren't going to change it. That said, Tony's button men didn't do to good; maybe Phil's did better, only he didn't know Phil was dead.

BTW, I didn't make too much of the ducks, Tony, the shrink, and Chase did. We saw plenty of scenes in the last few weeks where they could have reappeared but didn't. On the other hand, maybe I shouldn't be so sure reading the signs; Tony was and look what happened to him. Maybe!

[DevilWolf]

The only thing I know is that it now makes me laugh that Phil's plan was to "decapitate and do business with what's left". Speaking of, that's two of Tony's enemies who get their head cut off (Ralph). Wonder if you could also consider Junior's head to be gone?

[greybeard]

"You, you guys are good. No, you're good you. You got a gift." DeNiro, Analyze This.

[edensquad]

LMAO, grey! If the ending were cut & dried, Chase wouldn't have cut to black, now, would he?!!?

And this thread wouldn't have over 1,200 views ;-)

The great thing about art is: You can think the Mona Lisa is smiling; I can think she looks constipated... and we are both right.

[Dukerati]

I was firmly in the camp that Tony was still alive at finale's end but this recent slate article has me rethinking the ending...

http://www.slate.com/id/2163797/entry/2168249/nav/tap3/

[greybeard]

I was thinking, maybe NY found out that Tony was going to be indicted and took him out because they thought that he might make a deal. Then I'm thinking that that really does not play out because they have to have known what Tony did, that there were two investigations, not one, going on, and that offing Tony would bring the heat back on them, always the bigger fish in the Feds' eyes.

Nope, bad business, unless I'm better at this mobster business than the guys in NY and they missed that final piece. The irony is that we all think we are, that is, smarter at this mob game than all of them, including Tony who clearly was the smartest of them all.

Given the fact that Phil's underling had suggested to Phil that they "make the peace," I still say an assassination is a figment of our own hubris, and not a product of Tony's.

[edensquad]

"It's only hubris when you lose" (Julius Caesar on HBO's "Rome")

[DevilAlumna]

I was firmly in the camp that Tony was still alive at finale's end but this recent slate article has me rethinking the ending...

http://www.slate.com/id/2163797/entry/2168249/nav/tap3/

Wow, same here. Love the comment about Meadow witnessing the tableau, as she has always been the one who stood a bit apart from the family.

[greybeard]

"It's only hubris when you lose" (Julius Caesar on HBO's "Rome")

Now that show had an ending, straight out of Casablanca, yes?

[3rdgenDukie]

T is dead. Chase's genius is in creating the scenario where we, the fans of the morally depraved anti-hero, try to convince ourselves that the loathsome man 'survives'. Tony had accumulated more enemies than just about any man in TV history. Trying to claim he wasn't hit because it wasn't clear which one did it is a fool's errand. In the end, you don't even see it coming - either the physical act or the scenario/motive. And thus there is no resolution. You die - and death is final with no ability to 'look down from above'. That is Chase's message, and it is absolutely brilliant in its darkness.

To me, this is the ending that seems to complete the epic. For all the characters' charms, passions and in some cases, attempts to redeem themselves, it all becomes a 'big nothing'. Carmella accepts her addiction to blood money, Meadow deceives herself in an almost comical way, AJ wanders aimlessly. Paulie becomes king as the kingdom crumbles. June and Sil are in limbos of consciousness. Phil and Johnnie, dead. Bobby is forced to become a killer and then dies. Christopher is cruelly brought back to his disease before his 'father' kills him. Hesh loses his love. Janice her husband and likely her stepchildren. Even Harris and Melfi betray there professions. Artie and Charmane are the only ones who seem to have anything left.

In the end this was a bleak, bleak depiction of the futility of life. We were wrapped up in the action, the brash charisma, the comedy and even the occasional 'righteousness' of the gangster code. We hoped beyond hope there was something redeeming about our 'friends' for ten years. There wasn't.

[greybeard]

T is dead. Chase's genius is in creating the scenario where we, the fans of the morally depraved anti-hero, try to convince ourselves that the loathsome man 'survives'. Tony had accumulated more enemies than just about any man in TV history. Trying to claim he wasn't hit because it wasn't clear which one did it is a fool's errand. In the end, you don't even see it coming - either the physical act or the scenario/motive. And thus there is no resolution. You die - and death is final with no ability to 'look down from above'. That is Chase's message, and it is absolutely brilliant in its darkness.

To me, this is the ending that seems to complete the epic. For all the characters' charms, passions and in some cases, attempts to redeem themselves, it all becomes a 'big nothing'. Carmella accepts her addiction to blood money, Meadow deceives herself in an almost comical way, AJ wanders aimlessly. Paulie becomes king as the kingdom crumbles. June and Sil are in limbos of consciousness. Phil and Johnnie, dead. Bobby is forced to become a killer and then dies. Christopher is cruelly brought back to his disease before his 'father' kills him. Hesh loses his love. Janice her husband and likely her stepchildren. Even Harris and Melfi betray there professions. Artie and Charmane are the only ones who seem to have anything left.

In the end this was a bleak, bleak depiction of the futility of life. We were wrapped up in the action, the brash charisma, the comedy and even the occasional 'righteousness' of the gangster code. We hoped beyond hope there was something redeeming about our 'friends' for ten years. There wasn't.

Sorry, we are talking mobsters here; guys like Tony do not get whacked by people they intimidated, that they did wrong to. It don't work that way. Those folks stay scared, and far, far away. Other mobsters steer clear of such assasinations or they "be gone," like Phil was. He crossed the line when he whacked Johnny Sac's successor. Going after Tony sealed the deal. In your fantasy world all things are possible.

In real world terms, the only mobster who whacked a boss and lived to talk about it was Gotti. Gotti got away with it for a variety of reasons not the least of which is that the boss he killed not only was roundly hated, but also stepped over Gambino's hand picked successor, who was not Gotti, but Anielio Delecruse, who succeeded to his rightful place, only to die of cancer a short while later. Then Gotti became boss. Delecruse was old school, and Gambino's longtime underboss. Oh, there was one other guy who briefly headed a NY family in the modern era who got whacked, Crazy Joey Gallo, Umberto's clam house. Gallo was not called Crazy Joey for nothing. Went up against Gambino himself, straight up against him. And, was trying to take over the Columbo family. Nope. Don't anybody know who killed him.

You are way, way out of your league here. Television. You have to be kidding me.

[3rdgenDukie]

Sorry, we are talking mobsters here; guys like Tony do not get whacked by people they intimidated, that they did wrong to. It don't work that way. Those folks stay scared, and far, far away. Other mobsters steer clear of such assasinations or they "be gone," like Phil was. He crossed the line when he whacked Johnny Sac's successor. Going after Tony sealed the deal. In your fantasy world all things are possible.

In real world terms, the only mobster who whacked a boss and lived to talk about it was Gotti. Gotti got away with it for a variety of reasons not the least of which is that the boss he killed not only was roundly hated, but also stepped over Gambino's hand picked successor, who was not Gotti, but Anielio Delecruse, who succeeded to his rightful place, only to die of cancer a short while later. Then Gotti became boss. Delecruse was old school, and Gambino's longtime underboss. Oh, there was one other guy who briefly headed a NY family in the modern era who got whacked, Crazy Joey Gallo, Umberto's clam house. Gallo was not called Crazy Joey for nothing. Went up against Gambino himself, straight up against him. And, was trying to take over the Columbo family. Nope. Don't anybody know who killed him.

You are way, way out of your league here. Television. You have to be kidding me.

Whatever, mob guy. In the series alone, Tony had a serious attempt on his life by a non-boss (who was not then whacked), and he, as a NJ guy just took out the head of one of the 'five families' after a war that could justifiably said to have been started by him - taking out fat Dom, curbing Koko and whacking Phil's goomah. Hell, Sack of money plotted against Carmine. So internal to the story, hitting or trying to hit a boss was far from unheard of.

And while Castellano was the last 'old school' boss to fall in a coup - it was certainly not unique historically. Lucky took out not one but two bosses and did pretty well for himself. Who do you think erased Mangano?

Cling to the notion that Tony is alive if you want. His consciousness and his world, which we were so privelaged to view for eight years disappeared the moment the bullet entered his skull and stopped the music.

[greybeard]

Whatever, mob guy. In the series alone, Tony had a serious attempt on his life by a non-boss (who was not then whacked), and he, as a NJ guy just took out the head of one of the 'five families' after a war that could justifiably said to have been started by him - taking out fat Dom, curbing Koko and whacking Phil's goomah. Hell, Sack of money plotted against Carmine. So internal to the story, hitting or trying to hit a boss was far from unheard of.

And while Castellano was the last 'old school' boss to fall in a coup - it was certainly not unique historically. Lucky took out not one but two bosses and did pretty well for himself. Who do you think erased Mangano?

Cling to the notion that Tony is alive if you want. His consciousness and his world, which we were so privelaged to view for eight years disappeared the moment the bullet entered his skull and stopped the music.

Sticking to the story, Tony did what? He did not take out fat Dom, Phil did. He took out Phil with the blessing of Phil's family because Phil was deranged and had put a contract on Tony. I don't recall any attempts on Tony's life that went unpunished, and Tony did not take out anybody's goomah. The guy under Phil clearly hated and feared him. When Phil hung up on him, he knew he was in big trouble and gladly took Tony's deal, paying Bobby's widow and all. You have identified no business or other reason for a mobster to make a move on Tony, and there was none.

You are left to defend the improbable notion that someone from Phil's old gang was following AJ around with the hope that he might be joining up with Tony outside the house that evening in order to take out a guy who had just returned their "thing" to some semblence of stability and normalcy. I find that hard to swallow. Otherwise, you are left to suppose that Tony was fair game for any two-bit punk who had a gripe against the NJ boss. Nothing in the years that this series was on the air suggests that that was even a wild possibility.

By the way, Castellano was not an "old school" boss, but instead was known as the business school don, who wanted to take the mob uptown, against their collective wishes. He was killed in an uptown steak house in which his predecssor wouldn't have been caught dead. (tee hee.) He jumped over Delacruse, the old school successor to Gambino, and got whacked so that Delacruse could claim his rightful place and return things to the way they were.

You are not seriously equating with anybody left in Carmine's fictious gang with Lucky Luciano, who, by the way, is not a modern gang figure. He was done, I believe, when he got deported before, or early in, WWII. Lansky got him back in the country after the war by buying off Dewey (financing his run for Governor and then president), who was the guy who got Luciano deported in the first place. (Got that from a book titled, "Lansky"). The days of murder incorporated, and the rough and tumble days of the pre-war mob were a thing of the past in the post-war era. Gallo was a throw back to that pre-war era, and got taken out before he barely got started.

We're talking about the modern mob, and the fractious killings were a thing of the past. Tony did not get killed that night. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. This is better than the old Dodger/Yankee arguments or my yutt.

[3rdgenDukie]

Sticking to the story, Tony did what? He did not take out fat Dom, Phil did. He took out Phil with the blessing of Phil's family because Phil was deranged and had put a contract on him. I don't recall any attempts on Tony's life that went unpunished, and Tony did not take out anybody's goomah. The guy under Phil clearly hated and feared him, and, when Phil hung up on him, knew he was in big trouble. You have identified no business or omerta or other reason for a mobster to make a move on Tony, and there was none.

You are left to defend the improbable notion that someone from Phil's old gang was following AJ around with the hope that he might be joining up with Tony outside the house that evening in order to take out a guy who had just returned their "thing" to some semblence of stability and normalcy. I find that hard to swallow. Otherwise, you are left to suppose that Tony was fair game for any two-bit punk who had a gripe against the NJ boss. Nothing in the years that this series was on the air suggests that that was even a wild possibility.

By the way, Catellano was not an "old school" boss, but instead was known as the business school don, who wanted to take the mob uptown, against their collective wishes. He was killed in an uptown steak house in which his predecssor wouldn't have been caught dead. (tee hee.) He jumped over Delacruse, the old school successor to Gambino, and got whacked so that Delacruse could claim his rightful place and return things to the way they were.

You are not seriously equating with anybody left in Carmine's fictious gang with Lucky Luciano, who, by the way, is not a modern gang figure. He was basicly done, I believe, when he got deported before, or early in, WWII. Lansky got him back in the coiuntry by buying off Dewey (financing his run for Governor and then president), who was the guy who got Luciano deported in the first place. (Got that from a book titled, "Lansky"). The days of murder incorporated, and the rough and tumble days of the pre-war mob were a thing of the past in the post-war era. Gallo was a throw back to that pre-war era, and got taken out before he barely got started.

We're talking about the modern mob, and the fractious killings were a thing of the past.

Well, Gotti didn't take out Castellano either, technically. Tony's guys killed fat Dom, Tony ordered the hit that killed Phil's goomah, Tony curbed Koko personally. He started the hostilities.

Butchie didn't agree to take out Phil because Phil put a hit out on Tony, he agreed because he had failed to carry out that order to its completion and was worried that Phil was going to blame him. He certainly didn't hesitate to kill the #2 and #3 guys, and wasn't the least bit hesitant to start the war, though Albie was. Butch clearly didn't like Tony throughout the series, so I don't think it is remotely a far-fetched theory that elements of NY could easily have determined that T needed to go. They were obviously siphoning off huge amounts of cash from NJ while Tony was in hiding, so that is probably reason enough.

Of course, you also had Paulie, who T had mistreated and walked on until the final scene. And Patsy, whose brother Tony killed, and whom he obviously was treating with great suspicion. Carlo had flipped, so it may have made life easier for everyone if Tony was removed as a target for Fed pressure, which he was obviously about to become.

The point is, if it was obvious who had the motive and opportunity, you 'would hear it coming' and few folks would get whacked. In this regard, we were as blind as Tony.

Historically, many bosses have died in office. The slowdown in the last twenty years has more to do with the huge number that have been successfully prosecuted and the general dispersal and reduction in power of LCN, than any huge increase in criminal morality or collegiality. Gotti was the last to ascend this way, but he was almost killed himself, and since then the bosses have been going to jail more often than getting gunned down.

As far as unpunished attempts on T's life, what exactly was June's?

[mapei]

Junior's shot was an act of senility-induced paranoia and delusion, and thus a red herring.

What's a goomah?