Austin Rivers going with 0

[Gthoma2a]

Of course, it is an equally level-headed decision to decide to become a top 5 draft pick and guarantee yourself millions of dollars over the next 4 years. Plus, he always has the option of working toward his degree at Duke after he leaves, so leaving early would not preclude him from continuing his education and becoming a journalist in any way. There are so many variables that could change between now and next spring when Kyrie will have to decide what to do that it is impossible to know anything that isn't completely speculative. Of course, everyone has a 50-50 chance of being right or wrong (he either stays or goes), but I just don't think we really know any thing about how things will shake out.

I agree, but I like having a positive spin on it... makes me smile more.

[JasonEvans]

If I were Art Heyman and a young man of River's stature asked politely for the honor of using my retired jersey number, I would certainly give it serious consideration.

Dissent. A retired jersey is retired for a reason. it is to honor the guy who wore it and to say that no one deserves to wear it again. We don't open up a debate every time a kid wants a number as to whether or not that kid is good enough or honorable enough to unretire the number.

Suppose a lesser recruit, a top 50 kid as opposed to a top 5 one, wanted a certain number. Would we say, "sorry, we only give out retired numbers to better prospects than you"?

What if Heyman felt strongly about his number belonging to him but Dawkins didn't really care -- are we supposed to say, "Sorry, but 25 is not available. We can give you 24, which is also retired but Johnny Dawkins will let you use it."

What happens when the owner of the retired number dies? Do we ask his heirs about unretiring the number or just consider the answer to permanently be, "no." Heck, maybe once they die we consider the answer to be, "yes!!"

This is a bad precedent and one I am certain Duke will not undertake. Austin wanted to wear a number that is retired. That is it. End of story. I am sure Austin understands that. His father coaches the freaking Celtics, who are the kings of retired numbers.

--Jason "I just don't think numbers are as big a deal as some make them out to be" Evans

[dbluedevil222]

Dissent. A retired jersey is retired for a reason. it is to honor the guy who wore it and to say that no one deserves to wear it again. We don't open up a debate every time a kid wants a number as to whether or not that kid is good enough or honorable enough to unretire the number.

Suppose a lesser recruit, a top 50 kid as opposed to a top 5 one, wanted a certain number. Would we say, "sorry, we only give out retired numbers to better prospects than you"?

What if Heyman felt strongly about his number belonging to him but Dawkins didn't really care -- are we supposed to say, "Sorry, but 25 is not available. We can give you 24, which is also retired but Johnny Dawkins will let you use it."

What happens when the owner of the retired number dies? Do we ask his heirs about unretiring the number or just consider the answer to permanently be, "no." Heck, maybe once they die we consider the answer to be, "yes!!"

This is a bad precedent and one I am certain Duke will not undertake. Austin wanted to wear a number that is retired. That is it. End of story. I am sure Austin understands that. His father coaches the freaking Celtics, who are the kings of retired numbers.

--Jason "I just don't think numbers are as big a deal as some make them out to be" Evans

I slightly disagree with you in a sense. I don't think "numbers" should be retired at all. Having your jersey retired is one thing, but that shouldn't limit the numbers available for very long. Maybe when you retire a jersey, no one can wear that number for 10 or so years... but it's a logistical nightmare (which is why football doesn't retire numbers).

Using the current numbering system, there are 34-36 numbers available for a team depending on if you count #0 and #1. Duke has retired 13 numbers, 12 of which in the last 3 decades. That averages to 4 per decade (respectively it was 3/5/4 for 1980/90/2000). Using the current rule of numbers 0-5, Duke will run out of numbers fairly soon (even if we assume the trend of 4 per decade won't last). Combine that with the fact that certain numbers are pretty undesirable (13, 40-55), and it's going to become a problem.

In all honesty, I don't think numbers merit being permanently retired. While Grant Hill and Shane Battier were magnificent players for Duke (for example), I don't think that either player left a legacy worth ensuring that no player EVER wears 33 or 31. What happens if Duke wins another championship this year, do we retire Singler or Smith? Because if we do, that leaves Duke with 2 fewer numbers that NOONE could ever wear.

[Gthoma2a]

IMO, numbers don't matter unless you want to play for enough time to get them retired. Once someone has an amazing career in a jersey, then it means something because it becomes synonomous with a legacy. If players don't want to stay, then there is no reason to worry other than individuality. I personally sort of wish there were a way for Lance, Zoubs, or at least Scheyer to get their numbers retired. The reason I would like for them to get it is that they were all stars beyond the stat sheet. Their heart and spirits were beyond all expectations and put a banner up in the rafters that very few expected. That may not match the stats, but it was something that was just as valuable as all of the accolades that those jerseys represented to me. I would dare to say that is even more impressive considering this group of what were considered ordinary men played like supermen to elevate themselves and the school on the highest stage.

[JasonEvans]

I slightly disagree with you in a sense. I don't think "numbers" should be retired at all. Having your jersey retired is one thing, but that shouldn't limit the numbers available for very long. Maybe when you retire a jersey, no one can wear that number for 10 or so years... but it's a logistical nightmare (which is why football doesn't retire numbers).

Using the current numbering system, there are 34-36 numbers available for a team depending on if you count #0 and #1. Duke has retired 13 numbers, 12 of which in the last 3 decades. That averages to 4 per decade (respectively it was 3/5/4 for 1980/90/2000). Using the current rule of numbers 0-5, Duke will run out of numbers fairly soon (even if we assume the trend of 4 per decade won't last). Combine that with the fact that certain numbers are pretty undesirable (13, 40-55), and it's going to become a problem.

In all honesty, I don't think numbers merit being permanently retired. While Grant Hill and Shane Battier were magnificent players for Duke (for example), I don't think that either player left a legacy worth ensuring that no player EVER wears 33 or 31. What happens if Duke wins another championship this year, do we retire Singler or Smith? Because if we do, that leaves Duke with 2 fewer numbers that NOONE could ever wear.

Smith no. Singler seems a very likely retiree though, especially if we win another title or he has a National Player of the Year kinda season -- both of which are not sure things but seem at least reasonably likely.

I kinda agree with your point about retired numbers. There could be a time limit whereby numbers become available again. It is inevitable that, someday, we will run out of numbers. It may be in 10 years, maybe 20, maybe 50... but it will happen at some point. UNC, the Celtics, the Lakers, and the other most successful teams in basketball will face the same problem over time.

I dunno what we do. This is an issue left to the very top administrators at Duke and elsewhere. Still, we will have to deal with it at some point.

--Jason "I think you could put a 20 or 25 or even bigger year time limit on retired numbers and not offend folks" Evans

[quota]

Dissent. A retired jersey is retired for a reason. it is to honor the guy who wore it and to say that no one deserves to wear it again. We don't open up a debate every time a kid wants a number as to whether or not that kid is good enough or honorable enough to unretire the number.

Well at some point teams like Duke (who won't "unretire" numbers) are going to have to have the discussion about retired numbers, unless college basketball starts allowing numbers above 6 (16, 27, 72, etc.) like the NBA.

Is that down the road a bit? Sure, but eventually Duke will have enough retired jerseys and not enough numbers available that the discussion will have to be had.

So I don't think it's quite as set in stone as you would think.

[uh_no]

I think Kyrie wants to do things at Duke beyond one year.

I think that's a nice thought, but not based on much. Neither of us is Kyrie Irving, so we will likely have to wait and see.

[cwaugh]

Yeah, so much more talent than: KI, Curry, Plum, Plum, Nolan, Kyle...

You are right. Rivers < Singler, Nolan. Especially since both of them are seniors and potential 1st team All-Americans.

[devil84]

Dissent. A retired jersey is retired for a reason. it is to honor the guy who wore it and to say that no one deserves to wear it again. We don't open up a debate every time a kid wants a number as to whether or not that kid is good enough or honorable enough to unretire the number.

Well at some point teams like Duke (who won't "unretire" numbers) are going to have to have the discussion about retired numbers, unless college basketball starts allowing numbers above 6 (16, 27, 72, etc.) like the NBA.

Is that down the road a bit? Sure, but eventually Duke will have enough retired jerseys and not enough numbers available that the discussion will have to be had.

So I don't think it's quite as set in stone as you would think.

Yes, quota, you're right, someday there will be a discussion and a policy made on unretiring numbers. Jason is saying that "someday" won't be when an incoming frosh asks for a particular number.

An incoming freshmen, regardless of the promise of greatness, has never suited up in a Duke uniform -- in fact, they haven't MATRICULATED, or even SIGNED A LOI when they ask about numbers -- and their desire to have a particular number should not be the driving factor to determine if a Duke legend's number can be used again. It should be a policy decided upon by Duke officials so that Duke greats are honored for their basketball achievements and Duke diploma while making the number available in a respectful fashion for athletes who have yet to arrive on campus as a student.

[BD80]

... Using the current numbering system, there are 34-36 numbers available for a team depending on if you count #0 and #1. Duke has retired 13 numbers, 12 of which in the last 3 decades. That averages to 4 per decade (respectively it was 3/5/4 for 1980/90/2000). Using the current rule of numbers 0-5, Duke will run out of numbers fairly soon (even if we assume the trend of 4 per decade won't last). Combine that with the fact that certain numbers are pretty undesirable (13, 40-55), and it's going to become a problem. ...

With the propensity of the best players leaving early, I don't think we will see the retired jersey issue becoming a problem, ASSUMING WE DO NOT CHANGE THE STANDARD.

Of the 13 retired jerseys, 8 were National Players of the year (Groat, Heyman, Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Battier, Williams, Redick). I don't think there is any argument that Hill, Hurley, and Mullins belong on the list. I don't know if anyone would argue against Gminski based upon his body of work: he was the Duke career leader in points (2,323), rebounds (1,242), and blocked shots (345); he was named as one of the 50 greatest ACC players ever; and was ACC player of the year and 1st team AA in 1979. Shelden is the one player that mayhaps should not be on the list, a 1st team AA in 2006 and 2-time defensive player of the year, and Duke's career leader in rebounding and blocks.

I think each player whose jersey was retired earned his degree while playing. That will greatly reduce the number of future candidates. If Shelden is "lower" limit of performance required for jersey retirement, there won't be too many candidates. If there are, WHAT A GREAT PROBLEM!

I absolutely agree that no one should ask Art Heyman if Austin can wear his number. However, I would think that he might allow Austin to wear his number - knowing that Austin likely won't be around long enough to earn his own jersey retirement.

[oldnavy]

What do you guys think of Austin "sweet water" Rivers for a nickname?

[dukebballcamper90-91]

0hstin Rivers

[BoozerWasFouled]

Knowing a little of Heyman's personality, I think he would be offended by the request. He's not a hugely polite guy.