Tony Parker to UCLA

[moonpie23]

I have heard OTHERS express at the YMCA and many other places, talk radio (Bomani Jones used to bring this issue up just about every single day), internet blogs, etc.

sorry, but bomani jones is a racially prejudiced, confirmed duke hater masquerading as a blithering idiot. Perhaps you should use Greg Doyle as a point of reference as well...

[Kedsy]

I don't consider having "seven top 30 recruits" "PLUS Seth Curry" on our roster to be a germane counterpoint to the train of thought that says losing TP would be a "significant blow to absorb".

My point is, we'll have a lot of talent on next year's roster, with or without Parker. High school recruiting rankings are one indicator of a kid's talent. And especially since we're talking about recruiting, I couldn't think of a better way to convey the point.

My real problem with this line of thought is, when a recruit declines Duke's offer, I don't ever think that we "lost" him. So, to me, it's not a "blow" at all, much less a "significant blow to absorb." It's not like he belonged to us in the first place.

I could see people getting upset if we were recruiting poorly overall, but that's not the case here. Coach K has a bunch of great pieces and I'm confident he'll put them together in a way that wins a lot of games. I just can't see getting upset because we couldn't convince someone of a particular body type to play for us.

[Steven43]

sorry, but bomani jones is a racially prejudiced, confirmed duke hater masquerading as a blithering idiot. Perhaps you should use Greg Doyle as a point of reference as well...

I never said Bomani Jones' comments about Duke are not racially-prejudiced and I know quite well that he dislikes Duke. That does not in any way mean that he does not influence people. I never said that the talk I have heard in recent years about a certain perception of Duke big men/centers was without bias. Discrediting the various messengers does not refute the perception that the message they are espousing might create.

[slower]

I never said Bomani Jones' comments about Duke are not racially-prejudiced and I know quite well that he dislikes Duke. That does not in any way mean that he does not influence people. I never said that the talk I have heard in recent years about a certain perception of Duke big men/centers was without bias. Discrediting the various messengers does not refute the perception that the message they are espousing might create.

Don't worry, Steven. Not ALL of us want to shoot you for being the messenger. Anybody who thinks that there's absolutely NO perception among high school recruits that Duke is a "white, elitist institution" is just not paying attention or is unwilling to admit the truth.

Even though none of US (or, for that matter, most high school recruits) think that way doesn't mean that NONE of them think this way. That's just the way it is, fair or not.

[mkirsh]

I suspect Ryan's lateral quickness would be a strength if he played center (or "stretch 5," if you will). Opposing centers would have a heckuva time guarding him. I also suspect he'd rebound a lot more if we needed him to, but I'm not certain of that. The real issue for him would be defending opposing centers, but after watching him guard Sullinger for much of the first half against Ohio State, I was pleasantly surprised at how well he held his ground.

I actually think Ryan would be a very very good defensive "5" - he is tall enough to be an effective shot-blocker, has put on weight (and should continue to) so as to not be pushed around in the post, and is one of our best helpside defenders rotating in to take charges. Moreover, I think team defense would be very good with him calling out rotations from the back line. Only issue here would be rebounding, as he hasn't yet shown that he can rebound as effectively as the Plumlees.

[Greg_Newton]

I think Steven's catching some undeserved flak here.

Maybe it's not a comfortable thing to admit, but it's the truth that the vast majority of our big man recruits in the last few years have been preppy white guys. Sure, we had gangly 6'8 forward Lance Thomas, and we've got 6'7 forward Josh Hairston right now (from a NOVA-area prep school, no less ) behind our three 6'10 white guys from private schools. We had a couple of African-American post recruits in '05 who did nothing and transferred. But look at Kansas, UK, UNC, OSU, Memphis, UCLA etc. - our competitors for elite bigs - and the ratio hasn't exactly been the same. Neither is the ratio in top 100 bigs, year-to-year.

It's also the truth (whether you're aware or not) that recruits are very conscious of this. Call it a trend, a stereotype, whatever, it exists in the minds of recruits. As a relevant example, just a couple of days ago, Parker retweeted a tweet that said (roughly) "C'mon Tony, bring the soul back to Duke!" and commented (roughly) "LOL, best Duke tweet ever!" I'm sure you can see how this perception could have a negative effect on potential African-American big man recruits, even if we, as rational adults breaking down the argument, decide that it should not be so. It's a little different when you're 17, come from a different background than the vast majority of us on this board, and your buddies are giving you a hard time.

So, if you accept that some African-American bigs are turned off by this perception - even to an extent - you can see how one could make an argument that Parker could have been a particularly important recruit, purely from a supply/demand standpoint, if his commitment could have helped make us a more viable option in the minds of a significant portion of the supply of big man recruits. There are plenties of studies that support this kind of notion if we want to play that game. I don't think Steven is being racist, he's just being realistic.



(Kedsy - you make some good points that I'll need to respond to later when I get a few more minutes...)

[jwm]

Don't worry, Steven. Not ALL of us want to shoot you for being the messenger. Anybody who thinks that there's absolutely NO perception among high school recruits that Duke is a "white, elitist institution" is just not paying attention or is unwilling to admit the truth.

Even though none of US (or, for that matter, most high school recruits) think that way doesn't mean that NONE of them think this way. That's just the way it is, fair or not.

That's very true. It's not as much of a negative factor as it used to be because of changing attitudes. Coach K has changed the perception of Duke, (That's what having the best coach does) and the recruits' attitude have changed a lot, too, not only in regard to Duke, but even Harvard.

[ArtVandelay]

Greg, I get what you're saying, but I still think you're slightly off the mark here. While it's definitely possible that Duke has a perception problem when it comes to racial issues (and I'm talking about the school in general, not just the basketball program), I don't get the sense that it's nearly as big as you're suggesting here. Although fair enough, I don't spend much time around elite black high school basketball players and their friends. But it just makes ZERO sense why that sort of perception problem would apply only to big men. I just don't see how position and race have any correlation whatsoever. If black high school players had a problem with Duke, they wouldn't keep signing with Duke year after year.

I find it more plausible that big men in general are picking schools other than Duke that have produced a dominant big man more recently than we have. Not saying this is true, but at least it's a believable story. Like, I could see Tony Parker thinking "look what Thad Matta did for Jared Sullinger" before he thought "look how many more black big guys play at Ohio St than Duke, and also, too, Ryan Kelly is really dorky looking."

The other point I think you're missing is that even if there are some people and commentators out there that are feeding the perception that Duke can't recruit black big men, it doesn't help any to continue to give credence to this tired argument. You just ignore it. Grasping at straws by trying to interpret random tweets about bringing "soul" back to Duke is sort of a pointless exercise and just makes the problem worse.

[oldnavy]

I think Steven's catching some undeserved flak here.

Maybe it's not a comfortable thing to admit, but it's the truth that the vast majority of our big man recruits in the last few years have been preppy white guys. Sure, we had gangly 6'8 forward Lance Thomas, and we've got 6'7 forward Josh Hairston right now (from a NOVA-area prep school, no less ) behind our three 6'10 white guys from private schools. We had a couple of African-American post recruits in '05 who did nothing and transferred. But look at Kansas, UK, UNC, OSU, Memphis, UCLA etc. - our competitors for elite bigs - and the ratio hasn't exactly been the same. Neither is the ratio in top 100 bigs, year-to-year.

It's also the truth (whether you're aware or not) that recruits are very conscious of this. Call it a trend, a stereotype, whatever, it exists in the minds of recruits. As a relevant example, just a couple of days ago, Parker retweeted a tweet that said (roughly) "C'mon Tony, bring the soul back to Duke!" and commented (roughly) "LOL, best Duke tweet ever!" I'm sure you can see how this perception could have a negative effect on potential African-American big man recruits, even if we, as rational adults breaking down the argument, decide that it should not be so. It's a little different when you're 17, come from a different background than the vast majority of us on this board, and your buddies are giving you a hard time.

So, if you accept that some African-American bigs are turned off by this perception - even to an extent - you can see how one could make an argument that Parker could have been a particularly important recruit, purely from a supply/demand standpoint, if his commitment could have helped make us a more viable option in the minds of a significant portion of the supply of big man recruits. There are plenties of studies that support this kind of notion if we want to play that game. I don't think Steven is being racist, he's just being realistic.



(Kedsy - you make some good points that I'll need to respond to later when I get a few more minutes...)

I am no expert on race relations, but are we really to believe that racial preceptions are broken down to the positional level in basketball? In other words, wing players, guards, SF's, etc... view the world and Duke) differently than post players, and even more specifically back to the basket post players?

What would make an 16-17 year old 6'9" to 7' kid view the world differently than a 6'0 to 6'6" kid of the same age?

[Mike Corey]

If the talk here is about perception then I would (sadly) argue that there absolutely is a perception that Duke--as a school and basketball program--is not for black basketball players. This perception is perpetuated by opposing coaches as much as anyone else, and was used to dissuade players ranging in positions from John Wall to Greg Monroe. On more than one occasion, Duke recruits have been told by opposing coaches that Duke is only for "Uncle Toms" and similarly odious appellations.

In other words, Bomani Jones is not the one convincing recruits that Duke is not for them because of the color of their skin.

When Coach Capel was at Oklahoma, he was asked point blank by several high school basketball players whether or not what they had been told about Duke was true. Coach Capel shot down the perception every time, even when it was helping Duke recruit someone else he was also after.

The perception about Duke and big men is also a force to be reckoned with. Opposing coaches have made "screen highlight" videos that show Duke's big men setting picks for Duke's guards.

Duke is the victim of "negative recruiting" perhaps more than any other basketball program in America. The above is a sampling of how it is played out.

[magjayran]

sorry, but bomani jones is a racially prejudiced, confirmed duke hater masquerading as a blithering idiot. Perhaps you should use Greg Doyle as a point of reference as well...

I'm sorry but I have met and corresponded with him on several occasions and this is simply not true. Bomani brought up an image problem that a lot of people saw in the Duke basketball team and that was a very hard nut for a lot of us to swallow but it was there. Bomani is a quick witted and sharp tongued radio (and TV now) personality so when he's criticizing your team, it's stings. At the time that he was doing sports talk here locally, UNC was in the midst of a run to their second Final 4 in a row and a National Title so clearly he wasn't as hard on their team but those of us that followed him to the Morning Jones definitely heard him criticize the hell out of the Tarheels when they were down. Although he wasn't a believer in Duke as a Championship contender in 2010 until late in the tournament he was the first to give them all the credit in the world (while bemoaning the low-scoring game as boring) and to give Joe in Raleigh the most epic 10 minute gloat session in the history of sports call-in shows. Honestly I didn't think Duke was getting that championship until I saw the Final 4 match-ups so I can't criticize him for that.

My main beef with sports talk around here is that every single one of these guys seems to afraid to tick off a fan base. Sure Adam Gold or Taylor CzarTsar (however you spell it) might go in a little bit but they always back off before anything really harsh is said. Well screw that. I want honest opinions and if it hurts some feelings so be it. I'd much rather take that medicine with the knowledge that all the Tar Heel and Wolfpack fans are gonna get the same thing when they're down.

Now does this perception thing have anything to do with us probably maybe definitely losing Tony Parker. I don't think so at all. I think getting killed by tOSU has a lot more to do with it. Like Coach K says, next play. I say let's just find the biggest ugliest undeclared goon in the top 100 and throw an offer his way. Then we can teach him to rebound and kick it out for the three for the three over and over again and win another title in a year or two.

[SupaDave]

I am no expert on race relations, but are we really to believe that racial preceptions are broken down to the positional level in basketball? In other words, wing players, guards, SF's, etc... view the world and Duke) differently than post players, and even more specifically back to the basket post players?

What would make an 16-17 year old 6'9" to 7' kid view the world differently than a 6'0 to 6'6" kid of the same age?

It's all white noise really. (pun intended) B/c seriously, I don't hear anyone complaining about missing out on Josh Smith, Patrick Patterson, or Greg Monroe anymore. Compare it to UNC where they haven't had a person that fits that mold since well, ummm, hmmm, NEVER.

Meanwhile the Georgetowns, Syracuses, UConns, OSUs, and Texas teams get big boys on a regular. That's just how it is and it's a kabillion reasons why - one of them being that GREAT big guys come along about as often as Hailey's comet so you better put your chips in whether you get to see it or not. How many back to the basket big men start in the NBA right now?

Strangely enough it was the end of the world when we didn't land Barnes. Would we love to have him? Sure. But it turns out that he's a poor man's Andre Dawkins instead of the Tracy McGrady/MJ/Kobe everyone hoped he'd be.

Oh yeah, we couldn't recruit 'elite' guards when we missed out on Boynton. Yeah, he's a 4 year player now. Remember that one and done talk?

Quite frankly, I'm getting nervous because we might not be able to recruit heady tough short white guards anymore. UNC is getting them all. <------ See how crazy that sounds? (rolls eyes...)

[oldnavy]

If the talk here is about perception then I would (sadly) argue that there absolutely is a perception that Duke--as a school and basketball program--is not for black basketball players. This perception is perpetuated by opposing coaches as much as anyone else, and was used to dissuade players ranging in positions from John Wall to Greg Monroe. On more than one occasion, Duke recruits have been told by opposing coaches that Duke is only for "Uncle Toms" and similarly odious appellations.

In other words, Bomani Jones is not the one convincing recruits that Duke is not for them because of the color of their skin.

When Coach Capel was at Oklahoma, he was asked point blank by several high school basketball players whether or not what they had been told about Duke was true. Coach Capel shot down the perception every time, even when it was helping Duke recruit someone else he was also after.

The perception about Duke and big men is also a force to be reckoned with. Opposing coaches have made "screen highlight" videos that they show Duke's big men recruits setting picks for Duke's guards.

Duke is the victim of "negative recruiting" perhaps more than any other basketball program in America. The above is a sampling of how it is played out.

Mike, no doubt that this is happening. But as you said it is across the board, not just at the post position.

We have missed on several big post recruits, so THERE MUST be a single reason, right? Well, maybe not... maybe the post players that we have missed on didn't dislike Duke as much as they liked the school they picked. Maybe Duke was their second choice, even a close second. Maybe these particular kids didn't like the demands that would be made on them at Duke, both on the court and off, and chose their school accordingly. Maybe they didn't like Durham... Maybe they didn't like Coach K (gasp!).

Who really knows? I would love to be able to ask them individually why they selected a school other than Duke. I bet you would get a different answer for each kid.

The fact that we got kids like Kyrie, Austin, Andre, Josh, Tyler, Seth, Quinn, etc recently... tells me that we are getting through to african american HS players with very good success.

I think the issue is like you said more with the style that we have played most recently vice a race issue at a particular position.

I am sure that Coack K and the staff are aware of this negative recruiting. They will find the right kid in the next year or so that will see past the BS and realize that if they are the real deal, that K will utilize their talents and adjust the style to fit as he has done so well in the past.

[G man]

Not that I agree about needing African american centers, but there is something to be said to being able to relate to what you see on the floor. People identify with others that have similar characteristics as themselves. Whether it be skin color, position(center, power forward, etc..) religion, or other similarities whatever they maybe. It would not hurt to have an African american post player so that others may relate. That being said I don't think that it is a big deal. I think kids go places for other reasons first.

[Mike Corey]

We have missed on several big post recruits, so THERE MUST be a single reason, right? Well, maybe not... maybe the post players that we have missed on didn't dislike Duke as much as they liked the school they picked. Maybe Duke was their second choice, even a close second. Maybe these particular kids didn't like the demands that would be made on them at Duke, both on the court and off, and chose their school accordingly. Maybe they didn't like Durham... Maybe they didn't like Coach K (gasp!).

I think you are absolutely correct that whenever you land a commitment or do not land a commitment, there are multiple reasons behind a given player's decision. I think they vary by player.

I agree, and did not mean to imply, that racial perceptions are the primary reason that Duke misses out on recruits.

[Jderf]

Duke is the victim of "negative recruiting" perhaps more than any other basketball program in America. The above is a sampling of how it is played out.

And yet we still hover around the top of the polls year-in, year-out.

[Greg_Newton]

I am no expert on race relations, but are we really to believe that racial preceptions are broken down to the positional level in basketball? In other words, wing players, guards, SF's, etc... view the world and Duke) differently than post players, and even more specifically back to the basket post players?

What would make an 16-17 year old 6'9" to 7' kid view the world differently than a 6'0 to 6'6" kid of the same age?

I sort of hear what you're saying, but you can't group "the world" and "Duke" into the same concept. When it comes to Duke - specifically, being recruited by Duke to play basketball - I think it does make a difference whether you're a 6'3 combo guard or a 6'9 center. If you're a guard, you've grown up watching respected guys like Ewing, Henderson, Nolan, Kyrie, etc. play your position very well and with some swagger, then get drafted by the NBA. Not so much if you're Tony Parker. As I briefly alluded to earlier, there are numerous studies reinforcing the idea that having role models that look like you is important, whether that be race, gender, etc... so I would argue that there's both scientific theory and real-life, anecdotal evidence to support what I'm saying.

I also think that the race perception issue doesn't just disappear for guards; rather, Duke is just such a hot spot for guards right now that it doesn't matter. Remember when our most recent recognizable guards were Redick, Paulus and Scheyer, and guards like John Wall weren't exactly clamoring to come here? Then when we got Kyrie, and in short succession, three top guards in Rivers, Sulaimon and Jones committed and how we're currently recruiting the position at such a high level that we're turning interested top-25 talent away (Purvis, Green, etc.)? Guards see Duke as a great track to the NBA and the "cool" place for players of their position to go right now (not to mention somewhere that they'll be the focus of the offense), which is obviously a very big deal.

With bigs, there's the problem of several compounding issues at work. I don't think anyone's implying that race is the primary driver in a recruit's decision to attend Duke, but when you start with a) the very real racial perception issue, b) throw in the fact that it's been noticeably amplified and exemplified at the post position during recruits' teenage years, then c) add in the separate perception problem of Duke bigs in general, it creates a trifecta of factors that add up to a difficult situation to recruit against. I don't think that implying that Parker coming to Durham could have helped ease several of those issues is racist or unreasonable.

[Troublemaker]

I am no expert on race relations, but are we really to believe that racial preceptions are broken down to the positional level in basketball? In other words, wing players, guards, SF's, etc... view the world and Duke) differently than post players, and even more specifically back to the basket post players?

What would make an 16-17 year old 6'9" to 7' kid view the world differently than a 6'0 to 6'6" kid of the same age?

I think population size plays a role, though. There are way more 6' to 6'4" human beings on the planet than there are 6'8" to 7' human beings, and that is true within each of the racial populations as well. If I were to predict the racial makeup of a great basketball program that is elite in recruiting but has a bit of a negative perception about it in the black community, I would predict a roster consisting of guards that are mostly black and big men that are mostly white. That prediction, to me, takes into account all three factors that are exerting influence: (a) Duke being a great program that recruits at the highest level, (b) the negative perception in the black community, and (c) population frequencies of various heights. To put it somewhat more concisely, there's a negative perception about Duke, but the program still gains commitments from black guards because there are many more black guards than black post players, therefore leading to a statistical inevitability that the program will meet some black guards that like Duke. (Not that Duke is out there searching for black players to the exclusion of other races -- hopefully I am making myself clear).

As always, I could be wrong.

I agree with Mike Corey that the perception exists. But I'm not worried because I also believe Coach K and the program are well aware of the perception, are combatting it, and will eventually prevail over it.

[DUKIE V(A)]

You think that centers look at the Duke roster in recent years and say, "there may be brothers elsewhere on the floor, but not in the post. I am not going to that school!"

I thought the 3 brothers we have played (mostly) post.

[MartyClark]

I'm sorry but I have met and corresponded with him on several occasions and this is simply not true. Bomani brought up an image problem that a lot of people saw in the Duke basketball team and that was a very hard nut for a lot of us to swallow but it was there. Bomani is a quick witted and sharp tongued radio (and TV now) personality so when he's criticizing your team, it's stings. At the time that he was doing sports talk here locally, UNC was in the midst of a run to their second Final 4 in a row and a National Title so clearly he wasn't as hard on their team but those of us that followed him to the Morning Jones definitely heard him criticize the hell out of the Tarheels when they were down. Although he wasn't a believer in Duke as a Championship contender in 2010 until late in the tournament he was the first to give them all the credit in the world (while bemoaning the low-scoring game as boring) and to give Joe in Raleigh the most epic 10 minute gloat session in the history of sports call-in shows. Honestly I didn't think Duke was getting that championship until I saw the Final 4 match-ups so I can't criticize him for that.

My main beef with sports talk around here is that every single one of these guys seems to afraid to tick off a fan base. Sure Adam Gold or Taylor CzarTsar (however you spell it) might go in a little bit but they always back off before anything really harsh is said. Well screw that. I want honest opinions and if it hurts some feelings so be it. I'd much rather take that medicine with the knowledge that all the Tar Heel and Wolfpack fans are gonna get the same thing when they're down.

Now does this perception thing have anything to do with us probably maybe definitely losing Tony Parker. I don't think so at all. I think getting killed by tOSU has a lot more to do with it. Like Coach K says, next play. I say let's just find the biggest ugliest undeclared goon in the top 100 and throw an offer his way. Then we can teach him to rebound and kick it out for the three for the three over and over again and win another title in a year or two.

I don't find him all that quick witted or perceptive. Other than what you stated, and I'm not necessarily arguing with you, why do you defend the guy? I think he is shallow, mean spirited, and biased against Duke. There seems to be a racial component to many of his comments.