Tony Parker to UCLA

[JasonEvans]

OldPhiKap, who is Sheldon?

Heck, I want to know who Casey Saunders and Rashown McCleod are too!



--Jason "props for spelling Abdelnaby right, though!" Evans

[SupaDave]

Heck, I want to know who Casey Saunders and Rashown McCleod are too!



--Jason "props for spelling Abdelnaby right, though!" Evans

Do Boykin and Boateng count?

[Steven43]

Wait a second-- it really looks like you saying that you would want Tony Parker less if he was White instead of African-American... really? That's insane. The type of player he is, his size and weight, his skill set... these are things that have nothing to do with the pigment of his skin. I want him to attend Duke (something that I believe to be a huge longshot at this point) because of what he would add to our basketball team in terms of skills and potential, not because he would "darken" our profile.

I find your post disgusting and offensive and I honestly pity you for your outdated beliefs.

-Jason "as an aside-- highly-recruited PFs Lance Thomas and Josh Hairston are not too happy with you, I suspect" Evans

Excuse me, but I never said anything about MY beliefs. I am talking about recent perceptions as to why Duke has missed on so many centers over the last seven or eight years or so that I have heard OTHERS express at the YMCA and many other places, talk radio (Bomani Jones used to bring this issue up just about every single day), internet blogs, etc. And I was specifically referring to bigs who could play the CENTER position if necessary, not players like Alex Murphy, Josh H., Lance, Kyle Singler, etc. These are not MY ideas, but merely a commentary on what many others have expressed in recent years in regard to the center position on the Duke University basketball team. I was simply pointing out that when a perception is out there, it can be difficult to overcome. Please don't put words into my mouth and make assumptions about my personal beliefs.

[OldPhiKap]

Heck, I want to know who Casey Saunders and Rashown McCleod are too!



--Jason "props for spelling Abdelnaby right, though!" Evans

For Jason and MC -- I have vowel dyslexia. A's become O's, E's become O's. U's mysteriously appear in random places.


I would grootly opprociote it if youu would not point those out in the futurou. Thanks!

[ChillinDuke]

Take a worst-case-roster-scenario for 2012-13: no more Miles [graduates]; Mason, Austin, and Seth [unlikely, true, just worse case] head for the NBA, or Euroball, or the beaches of Australia, whatever; and no additional recruits, zero.

We're left with:

PG - Thornton, Cook, Curry
Wings - Dawkins, Gbinije, Murphy, Sulaimon
Interior - Kelly, Hairston, Plumlee (Murphy)

Preseason #8-10. We're gold, every year.

To revisit a post from 8/11 (sorry, Gumbo...didn't mean to pick on your post specifically, just recalled people posting worst case scenarios), this has now become a very real possibility. [I added Seth back onto that roster.]

Please understand, I'm not melting down. I'm not proclaiming the apocalypse. I'm not trying to rag on our recruiting. But relevant to a discussion in a recruiting thread, there is a very glaring hole in this lineup. That's just my take on the situation.

We can revisit this next offseason, because I still like our team a lot this year and want to enjoy the here and now. But if we're reasonably #6 ish now, I am not in agreement that the above roster is a preseason #8-10 team. I'd love nothing more than to be wrong on this.

I'm not sure why it's surprising that people are upset about this. There's really a laundry list of reasons that TP was more important than your average #20 recruit:

-It's never been the plan for Kelly be "our center". He's a stretch 4, and this means he'll likely be forced into an unnatural position, especially against bigger frontlines. Because...
-It's never been the plan for Marshall to start as a RS frosh. I saw him play several times pre-Duke (as recently as this summer) and always came away with the impression that he was clearly a determined worker and awesome kid, but nowhere near being a competitive high-major center. I had thought that best case, he might contribute a few (~10) mpg in his second year, and more likely start to come into his own in his 3rd or 4th year (when I do think he'll be great guy to have holding down the 5). But he's a long way away. This is kind of reinforced by the fact that the coaches' decision to redshirt him because he would have been unable to crack even the back end of the rotation, as we saw in China.
-Josh starting at PF his junior year wouldn't be the end of the world, but alongside Kelly, it's definitely not ideal. He's 6'7 and overly athletic, has had trouble stopping taller players, and hasn't really been an offensive threat. He's got great energy, but you'd rather have a guy like that coming off the bench.

All this would add up to an offensively gifted but finesse, rebounding and lateral quickness-challenged stretch 4 being our C, a 6'7 player who is not likely to see many minutes this year as our PF, and a guy who will, IMO, not be ready as our ONLY post backup. Our only other option would be a second-year SF who was deemed not ready to play wing as a freshman, and he certainly couldn't sub for Kelly.

Throw in the fact that 2012 is a class with once-in-a-decade - maybe longer - depth at the PF/C position, and our recruiting plan was to "take" 2 PF/Cs, and possibly a stretch 4. Given that we're Duke and literally have a gaping hole in the starting lineup for a big body to step in alongside Kelly next season, everyone - I mean everyone - was confident that we would get at least one big, and acknowledged that the unlikely event of a failure to do so would be a major whiff.

So, we've nervously watched as K has gone all out for a big over the past year-plus - telling ourselves that the "big man issue" isn't that big of a deal, certainly not big enough to prevent us from landing at least one solid big from this loaded class - and somehow, the enormous crop of potential post recruits has somehow been whittled down to one - Tony Parker. Who, yes, also happens to be the embodiment of what we've not had for a few years due to the "perception problem".

Was he going to come in and put up 18 and 10? No. Would he have been a 6'9 270 lb space eater who could have rebounded around the rim, been at least a threat on the blocks on offense, enforced the lane on defense, freed up Kelly on both ends of the floor, and quite possibly turned our frontcourt into a strength rather than a liability by doing these things? Well, yeah. That was the expectation. And that's not even taking the following year into consideration, where we're in great shape for the two top players in the country, and haven't seriously recruited a low-block guy, under the assumption that things would work out this year. Those two players happen to be 6'9, and one is a SF and one is a PF who, like all PFs, thinks he's a SF too. It sure would have been nice to have an established hoss down low to point to as proof that they wouldn't get chained to the post, rather than only work-in-progress MP3 in his RS frosh year. Parker would have been the perfect "1-in" to complement our projected plethora of 6'6-6'9 forwards in a 4-out-1-in system in coming years.

Now, obviously the program isn't going to collapse and we'll probably still be a top 20 team next year (hopefully top 10-15 if we have Austin or Bazz), and hopefully a contender again the following year. But given the above, is it really hard to fathom why some believe that this is is a pretty significant blow to absorb?

This was so well said.

[sagegrouse]

What you'd rather not discuss is the elephant in the room on this board. What do Josh McRoberts, Brian Zoubek, Miles Plumlee, Mason Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, and Marshall Plumlee have in common besides playing basketball at Duke University and being 6'10" or taller? Perceptions can be very difficult to change, especially when they keep getting reinforced. It's extremely challenging to recruit top-level big men when being forced--for reasons that might be entirely out of Duke's hands--into a very shallow pool of which to compete. That is one of the reasons I feel Tony Parker is a more important recruit than Mitch McGary was.

Holy moly! Did this say what I thought it said? As others have pointed, out how about Elton or Carlos or Shel or Casey or MT or Boateng or Josh or maybe Alaa or Luol?

sage

[Steven43]

Greg Newton absolutely nailed it. He explained so well why Tony Parker would make such a big impact at Duke.

[Steven43]

Holy moly! Did this say what I thought it said? As others have pointed, out how about Elton or Carlos or Shel or Casey or MT or Boateng or Josh or maybe Alaa or Luol?

sage

Umm, read my more recent post further explaining what I was trying to say. Most of the guys you mentioned are not CENTERS or were not recruited recently. The only recent recruits (recruited within last 7-8 years) on your list who could conceivably have played center--Boateng, Thompson--left Duke to play elsewhere. We start recruiting most players at age 15 or 16, meaning they were in kindergarten/first grade/second grade seven or eight years ago. They likely only know what they've seen in the past several years or so. More importantly, what I wrote is simply a retelling of what I have heard others mention. I was simply putting it out there as a way of explaining why the recruitment of Tony Parker could go a long way toward dispelling recently-expressed perceptions about the center position at Duke in recent years. I did not create the perception that I have heard expressed so please stop taking it up with me personally.

[Kedsy]

All this would add up to an offensively gifted but finesse, rebounding and lateral quickness-challenged stretch 4 being our C

I suspect Ryan's lateral quickness would be a strength if he played center (or "stretch 5," if you will). Opposing centers would have a heckuva time guarding him. I also suspect he'd rebound a lot more if we needed him to, but I'm not certain of that. The real issue for him would be defending opposing centers, but after watching him guard Sullinger for much of the first half against Ohio State, I was pleasantly surprised at how well he held his ground.

Plus, since I'm in the camp that would not expect Parker to start even if he comes to Duke, I think we'll be seeing a lot of Ryan at C no matter what next year.

, a 6'7 player who is not likely to see many minutes this year as our PF, and a guy who will, IMO, not be ready as our ONLY post backup. Our only other option would be a second-year SF who was deemed not ready to play wing as a freshman, and he certainly couldn't sub for Kelly.

My very early guess is that Alex has as much or more of a chance to start at PF as Josh does. Like Ryan, Alex might play more outside on offense, but he's tall enough, and hopefully after a year in the weight room, strong enough to guard most opposing PFs. Alternatively, Josh could start to "get it" on defense -- he's a little short for some 4s, but I think he's strong enough to play there. He's also more of an offensive threat than many PFs we've trotted out there over the years.

Personally, I believe a lineup featuring any three of our perimeter players plus Alex and Ryan would be a matchup nightmare for most teams and be very effective on offense and also a lot of fun to watch. I believe our interior defense would be adequate, although probably not a strength of the team. (Although having said that, I am skeptical that adding a freshman Tony Parker would strengthen our interior defense to any great degree.)

But given the above, is it really hard to fathom why some believe that this is is a pretty significant blow to absorb?

It's not hard to fathom why many believe our team would be significantly better with Parker on it. I haven't seen anything of Parker other than highlight reels, but for 2012-13 I believe he could be a valuable backup C, getting 15 to 18 minutes a game. If he develops properly, he could be a strong starting C in 2013-14.

But what I do find hard to fathom is the thought process where not getting #22 Parker is considered a "significant blow to absorb" on a team with seven top 30 recruits (counting Andre and Alex who were top recruits before they reclassified), PLUS Seth Curry (who was not a top 30 recruit). That's a lot of talent, no matter how much we hoped to get additional talent in the 2012 recruiting class.

[JasonEvans]

Hang on a sec, Steven. You specifically said you wanted Parker more than McGary and it sure seems you made that comment not because of any basketball skill issue, but because you want Duke to get an African-American post player versus getting another big White guy. Am I wrong in interpreting your comment that way?

Now you say you want Duke to specifically land an African-American center and you say all the African-American power forwards we have landed do not count.

So, if I am correct in understanding your logic, you think there is a perception that Duke is a bad place for African-American centers to come play basketball. Not for African-Americans in general seeing as we have landed scores of Af-Am guards, wings, and power forwards over the years. You think that centers look at the Duke roster in recent years and say, "there may be brothers elsewhere on the floor, but not in the post. I am not going to that school!"

Do I have this right? It is not that Duke is unwelcoming to all Af-Am players, but merely that we are not a good place for Af-Am post players. That is what you are saying, right?

{sarcasm mode = on} I think this explains why Tyler Adams decided to rescind his commitment and go to Georgetown instead. He called up Hairston, Dawkins, Rivers, Gbinije, Cook, Thornton, and Curry (more than half of our recruited roster) and they said, 'Yeah, we love it here man. But you are a post player and everyone knows the only black players welcome at Duke are small and medium-sized ones.'" {sarcasm mode = off}

I know you are going to come back and say something about you are just repeating some idiotic perception about Duke, but the facts about our roster today and over the K years speak for themselves and those facts are loudly shouting that there is no racism at Duke. If you are a good kid, a good student, a good ballplayer, and committed to the team, then your skin color could be fuschia and you would be welcome here.

I'll tell you what bothers me the most about your post... it is that real Duke fans cannot see past the racism of folks like Bomani Jones or Jalen Rose -- folks who resent Duke and Duke players for a variety of silly reasons (mostly that they cannot beat us). Every time a Duke fan like you buys into these patently false and ridiculous claims, it hurts the program, the school, and all the rest of us who love and support this program because it feeds the false perception. The more widespread these ridiculous perceptions grow, the more they start to become a reality. I think that would be a shame, because -- as I have made clear -- I don't give a #@!^!@^ what color the skin of Duke players are and I think it would be tragic if some good kids felt they would not be welcome on the Duke team because of the color of their skin.

To be clear, I am not saying you are a bad fan or anything like that... I am merely lamenting that even Duke fans can fall prey to the jealousies of these folks who make ridiculous and untrue racist stereotypes about Duke. It is sad.

-Jason "I doubt I cannot convince you, Steven... but maybe some other folks who worry about this issue read my post and saw the light a little bit" Evans

[THE FUTURE]

Best comparsion for TP is Sean may hands down...the way he shoots, post moves, rebounding, great hands, looks just like May

[Kedsy]

If you are a good kid, a good student, a good ballplayer, and committed to the team, then your skin color could be fuschia and you would be welcome here.

I don't know, Jason. Have we ever successfully recruited a fuschia-skinned big man? This may be a cause for concern.

[devildeac]

I don't know, Jason. Have we ever successfully recruited a fuschia-skinned big man? This may be a cause for concern.

And who would be able/qualified to coach a young man of that color?(jk)

[Steven43]

Best comparsion for TP is Sean may hands down...the way he shoots, post moves, rebounding, great hands, looks just like May

Seems like a pretty good comparison to me. If I can recall correctly Sean did not play above the rim, which from the videos I've seen of Tony is another way in which they appear similar. And one can be very effective at the five position in college without being a skywalker. When motivated, Sean May was a very good college player who could have been a good pro if he hadn't gotten injured and had been more diligent about getting in and staying in NBA-level shape.

[Steven43]

I have to admit the fuchsia comments are pretty funny.

[Mike Corey]

And who would be able/qualified to coach a young man of that color?(jk)

violet7.jpg

[Steven43]

And Jason's comment of, 'there may be brothers elsewhere on the floor, but not in the post. I am not going to that school!', pretty much made my perceptions argument look kind of thin.

Jason, I am going to reply to your post in greater detail, but I don't have time right now. Until then, though, I want you to know that I never intended to insinuate racism on the part of Duke University or anyone associated with our basketball program. I NEVER had a thought like that in my head. This is not an internal issue at Duke, it is solely external.

[ChillinDuke]

I suspect Ryan's lateral quickness would be a strength if he played center (or "stretch 5," if you will). Opposing centers would have a heckuva time guarding him.

Interesting point from an offensive perspective. I'm still far from sold on Ryan's ability to anchor the team on interior defense and rebounding. Not implying that Parker would do this as a freshman. He would probably help though. At least, he couldn't hurt.

Personally, I believe a lineup featuring any three of our perimeter players plus Alex and Ryan would be a matchup nightmare for most teams

Could be. Way too early to tell IMO. Again, I question rebounding and interior defense. I get that TP probably wouldn't be an impact freshman a la Rivers or Kyrie and that he is not a defensive juggernaut (at least per write-ups discussed in this thread), but losing him is significant to me. In 2012 and beyond. I don't think that is being over-dramatic or short-sighted.

But what I do find hard to fathom is the thought process where not getting #22 Parker is considered a "significant blow to absorb" on a team with seven top 30 recruits (counting Andre and Alex who were top recruits before they reclassified), PLUS Seth Curry (who was not a top 30 recruit). That's a lot of talent, no matter how much we hoped to get additional talent in the 2012 recruiting class.

I think any rational person would agree that Duke has a lot of talent. That's undeniable. In any year.

Where I lose you is how recruiting rankings are relevant in evaluating our roster of sophomores, juniors, and seniors. Recruiting rankings are only a data point to help evaluate players we haven't seen play in college yet/enough. Andre Dawkins being a highly-rated recruit does not seem relevant 4 years later.

I don't consider having "seven top 30 recruits" "PLUS Seth Curry" on our roster to be a germane counterpoint to the train of thought that says losing TP would be a "significant blow to absorb".

- Chillin (Tab: $0.06)

[oldnavy]

I cannot help but laugh. Now we are breaking insitutional racism down by position?

Is it possible that some folks are really over thinking the whole thing? Maybe just a bit??

My thinking is that things like this run in cycles. It wasn't that long ago we were concerned that we couldn't get a true PG...

[ncexnyc]

Steven43 has caught a lot of grief over his comments on this thread. I find it rather odd as earlier this week DukieInBrasil started a thread (currently on page 2) mentioning some articles that ran in, “The Nation” and “The Onion.” The piece in, “The Nation”, was written by David Zirin and it’s basically a hatchet job on Coach K. Zirin uses the words, “elitist trappings of Duke University.” Now it seems to me that writers who like to take cheap shots at the University rarely come out and say the school is racist, but they use elite or elitist as a codeword for racist.
Zirin then borrows a line from a book by Taylor Branch,” College Athletes are not slaves. Yet to survey the scene…….is to catch the whiff of the plantation.”” Zirin turns his hatchet on Coach K by saying, “Coach K has acquired power by inhaling deeply this ““whiff of the plantation.””
Coincidence, Zirin’s use of this phrase when discussing Duke and Coach K. maybe, maybe not.

Jason talks about facts, but since when did facts ever silence the truth about our program? Time and time again, whenever the media wants to say something negative about the University or the program look to see what words are used.

If any of you actually believe that negative perceptions of the school and our use of big men doesn’t filter down to some recruits. Well all I can say is enjoy your place in the sand.